Progress thread for ne

[terryk]

Hi Ne -above all else, I do believe that we need to continue to point out that AUD (alcoholism) is a symptom driven brain disorder.

and

ALCOHOLISM (or AUD) is a SYMPTOM driven disease. Alcohol is only used as a means to cope with the symptoms.

Your use of "symptom driven disease" or "symptom driven brain disorder" as a way to describe alcoholism as the result of another, underlying disorder is erroneous. Other forum members have pointed this out to you before.

A symptom driven disease is one where the symptoms are a requisite component of the diagnosis - in the absence of symptoms, there is no disease (or the disease has been cured).

It is the cornerstone on which baclofen therapy for addiction is founded:

"Olivier Ameisen,74 published a best-selling book, The End of My Addiction, to document the successful use of baclofen in treating his alcoholism. Addiction, in his view, is a symptom-driven disease, and, unlike other diseases, the suppression of symptoms (such as craving, preoccupation, thoughts) should suppress the disease of alcoholism."

Aside from that, the actual causes of alcoholism (underlying or not) are many and complex; much larger, in fact than what the continual projection of *your own* personal issues can reflect.

-tk

[Mentium]

Ameison was pretty clear on this one. The disease and the symptoms are one in the same, unlike say, a fever, which might be the symptom of an infection. That was why he was so insistent that curing the symptoms would cure the disease. And it is one reason that for many, possibly most, abstinence doesn't 'cure' the disease. One of the symptoms is craving for alcohol.

[Spiritfree]

and Your use of "symptom driven disease" or "symptom driven brain disorder" as a way to describe alcoholism as the result of another, underlying disorder is erroneous. Other forum members have pointed this out to you before.
(Please explain to be TK so that I can try to understand?)

A symptom driven disease is one where the symptoms are a requisite component of the diagnosis - in the absence of symptoms, there is no disease (or the disease has been cured).

It is the cornerstone on which baclofen therapy for addiction is founded:

"Olivier Ameisen,74 published a best-selling book, The End of My Addiction, to document the successful use of baclofen in treating his alcoholism. Addiction, in his view, is a symptom-driven disease, and, unlike other diseases, the suppression of symptoms (such as craving, preoccupation, thoughts) should suppress the disease of alcoholism."

Aside from that, the actual causes of alcoholism (underlying or not) are many and complex; much larger, in fact than what the continual projection of *your own* personal issues can reflect.
-tk

Hi Terry • Please review the attached link and words to help me to better understand what you are talking about when you say that it is "erroneous" relative to "underlying symptoms". I truly do not understand and I have no interest in arguing or otherwise. I am only guessing when I say that I think that you are telling us if a person only has an alcohol problem with some anxiety, then Baclofen cures all that? Nevertheless, I do believe that we all know that the brain disorder AUD only occurs as the result of pre-exisiting brain disorders in most people, just like you and me.

Can Alcoholism Be Treated? - Bloomberg


Baclofen can be a great medication to help reduce or eliminate the desire for alcohol but it does not address the reasons that we all drink in the first place. This is exactly why treatments like Ibogain and other type of hallucinogens are now being studied again and are currently used (as a quick brain resets) versus months or years of taking Baclofen to do the same.

[kronkcarr]

Baclofen can be a great medication to help reduce or eliminate the desire for alcohol but it does not address the reasons that we all drink in the first place. This is exactly why treatments like Ibogain and other type of hallucinogens are now being studied again and are currently used (as a quick brain resets) versus months or years of taking Baclofen to do the same.

sf, I posted awhile ago about a friend's husband's experience with Ibogain. He went to a clinic in another country twice to take Ibogain. It was not a miracle reset drug for him. He had interesting trips on it and it they were very similar to other people's experiences there. After 2 expensive trips he is still drinking and escaping his reality. It's my opinion that there is no magical cure. Whatever drug we take doesn't magically take our personalities and coping mechanisms away.

[Spiritfree]

Hi Kronk -I do believe that you have to be 100% correct regarding your friend and his experiences with Iboga. I also have to believe that his story and results are not the same as some others who truly have found new freedom. All in all Kronk, regardless of medical protocol, I do believe that much more action(s) have to take place outside of medications, before we are able to become contently sober and happy.

[lex]

I care about SF's beliefs and certainly about his right to express them.

[Determinator]

Greetings Neva, and I hope you don't mind me barging into your thread here. After some considerable frustration with staying sober I (just today) talked my doc into prescribing baclofen. I just took my first one 10mg at 1:30 ago and I'm not sure what to expect. thanks much.

[treetops]

Hi Det. I have never taken Bac but it has worked for many people and I think you will get lots of good advice from the folks here about it. Ne has another website that esp deals with Bac I think. Anyway I just wanted to give you my support and I hope trying this option gets you out of the cycle you were in.
Lots of hugs and wishes.

[Mentium]

Greetings Neva, and I hope you don't mind me barging into your thread here. After some considerable frustration with staying sober I (just today) talked my doc into prescribing baclofen. I just took my first one 10mg at 1:30 ago and I'm not sure what to expect. thanks much.

The forum referred to in the post above can be found at: Forums - The End of my Addiction

[Mom21961]

I just took my first one 10mg at 1:30 ago and I'm not sure what to expect. thanks much.

You will find a ton of Baclofen information, including the prescribing guide and side effects here:

The Complete List - All of the Baclofen Research at a Glance - The End of my Addiction

Good luck!

Mom2

[Determinator]

thanks loves! most appreciated.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Greetings Neva, and I hope you don't mind me barging into your thread here. After some considerable frustration with staying sober I (just today) talked my doc into prescribing baclofen. I just took my first one 10mg at 1:30 ago and I'm not sure what to expect. thanks much.

Jeez, Det. I'm glad others responded so quickly! I haven't checked in here for what seems like forever. (since yesterday morning! Ha!)

As the others have mentioned, you're welcome to join us on the new forum, but that doesn't mean I/we can't answer questions on here, too. (New forum is at Forums - The End of my Addiction . Feel free to join in on the Checking In thread, or Newbies Nest, or wherever...)

People have a great deal of different responses to baclofen...Certainly 10mg shouldn't have any profound effect on you, about anything.

What did your doc prescribe? How much to start with? How often do you titrate up (take more)? How much are you drinking? All of those things make a difference...

Sorry to hear you're still struggling. I've appreciated your input over the years.

I hope that baclofen will be the miracle for you that it has been for many of us! Hang in there.

[Determinator]

thanks Neva, you are a gem. My doc was totally ignorant on the subject and only prescribed it because I wouldn't leave without it. These pills are 10mg so I'm thinking I'll got a week with these 3X per day and then increase somewhat... I'm not sure how exactly?......
I'm still drinking some wine to alleviate withdrawal, and just trying to take things slow.
I'd like to quit asap but want to avoid a medical crisis.
catch you on that other thread.
thanks again,
D.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Hey, Det.
30mg/day is where a lot of people start. That was too much for me, and I started at 10mg/day.

Going up by 10-20mg/per week, assuming you don't have any side effects, is the general recommendation. There is a prescribing guide, with all the recommendations, written by doctors, found here:

Research on the Efficacy of Baclofen in Treating Alcoholism - Information for Doctors - The End of my Addiction

[Otter]

I feel relieved that our friend SF has found other things to do. I felt it was driving me a bit mad and this forum shouldn't do that. I think people will come back here but I am a big supporter of Ne and the new forum and will do everything I can to help make it a success.

People do drift away but, as this video shows, if there is something good happening, they tend to drift back: