Titrating down from 400mg/d, diary

[Lowcountryman]

Hi there, I've been asking for less succesfull stories on this forum, and for the long-term effect of our beloved 'Bac'. Without little respons by the way

This is where I come from:
I took units (half liters of beer, in cans) at almost every hour a day. No schedule, sometimes 20 a day. After vomiting, I waited a few minutes, and took another. Seems disgusting, it became a routine. I've been on antidepressa, lexapro, and Refusal (like Antabuse), but that didn't help. I drank right through the Refusal, which is something I wouldn't recommend, but it is possible. The Lexapro made me feel a littlebit better, but not that much.

My psychiatrist came to me with the book of Ameisen. He said i should read it and maybe give it a try. I read it and got inspired to give it a try. That's also the moment I learned of WMO.

This is where I am now:
Started 2/3 months ago. I've been on 400 mg/d for the last week now. The pharmacist has made a call to my psychiatrist and told him he didn't want to give me this high dosages anymore. We decided to titrate down. I could easily have gone higher, I think. But for me there was no real difference between 300 mg/d and 400 mg/d.

I've had all the SE's, but none of them where 'scary'. I can't think clear anymore though. I forget even my appointment with the psychiatrist

By means of result. Baclofen has taken me everywere. It broke the circle. Allowed me to take a good look at the mess I got myself into. Yes, I sometimes take a beer. But I don't get the 'highs' of it anymore. And if I openend one, I'm sure I don't need the assurance of having enough just incase.

So, now I'm tapering down. I figured there was nobody who's started a thread like this, so I'll keep posting sometimes. Just to share. Maybe it's not a successtory, but that is not what this forum should only be about.

Low

[Seethepony]

Titrating down from 400mg/d, diary

Hi Lowcountryman, wow! That's a lot of baclofen! (Put it into perspective - your 400mg would last me an entire week!)
You're not entirely clear about how much success you've had - are you drinking every day, or a few times a week?
In any case, I'm very curious to hear how things go. Good luck and have a happy, vomit-free Christmas!

[Arbat1991]

Titrating down from 400mg/d, diary

Wow

I am just starting on BAC and I am really scared. Will I need to reach 400 a day? Is there a way out?
I remember the beers intake similar to the experience above when I was about 10 years younger. This is exactely how it was with me - vomiting and taking new one again. 20-30 bottles a day. I know what it is like...

[terryk]

Titrating down from 400mg/d, diary

Lowcountryman;1027600 wrote: I've been on antidepressa, lexapro, and Refusal (like Antabuse), but that didn't help. I drank right through the Refusal, which is something I wouldn't recommend, but it is possible. The Lexapro made me feel a littlebit better, but not that much.

Hi Low,

Are you still taking Lexapro? Here's a thread on the forum that suggests that some anti-depressants (Celexa/citalopram is mentioned, which is basically a less refined form of Lexapro/escitalopram) can inactivate the anti-craving effects of baclofen.

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...sal-43035.html

If you read all of the posts, JWHIII reveals that citalopram was indeed the culprit for him.

hope that helps.
-tk

[seeking_serenity]

Titrating down from 400mg/d, diary

Arbat1991;1027629 wrote: I am just starting on BAC and I am really scared. Will I need to reach 400 a day? Is there a way out?
I remember the beers intake similar to the experience above when I was about 10 years younger. This is exactely how it was with me - vomiting and taking new one again. 20-30 bottles a day. I know what it is like...

I was drinking that much at one time myself. I apparently wasn't born with an "off switch." Just a few short years ago, my entire life consisted of: wake up, drink, vomit, drink more, vomit more, etc. and drink until the vomiting stopped...and then I could really let loose and DRINK. What an absolute nightmare. The vomiting had absolutely no effect on my desire for the AL--it seemed at the time like I was drinking in spite of the horrible retching.

I'm pretty new to BAC, but why are you scared? I am already seeing some wonderful effects from this drug. I have absolutely no doubt that it will work for me. I'm taking the plunge very blindly. But every indication so far is: this stuff works. Whether it's 80 mg or 400 mg, it will work for you eventually. Best of luck to you, and stick around; this forum has many people who are on BAC, and many more with incredible success stories. They are here to help you out! Take care, and stick around.

[Lowcountryman]

Titrating down from 400mg/d, diary

Arbat, there's absolutely no reason to be scared at all. Listen to your body and read of lot of member's experience here on WMO. You'll find that most of what you are or will be going through, has been pretty much documented already. You won't probably need that much, I guess I even didn't, but I titrated up just to be 'sure'. I got a real good feeling already at 110-120 mg/d. My psychiatrist told me that other patients of his, actually stayed on that level because the results were good enough for them. I myself slept like a rose (dutch saying) at that dosage. Insomnia kicked in only at higher doses.

Terryk. I know. I'm off Lexapro a few months now. I've learned (from WMO btw) that it's no use combining those meds together.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Titrating down from 400mg/d, diary

Arbat,
Don't be scared. I was really, really frightened/anxious/nervous. Bac helps with that too! :H Really.
You can use the private message feature if you're hesitant to post for the general public. Lots of people around to answer all of your questions. Also there are a lot of answers in the links on the Consolidated Baclofen Thread.
Have you read Dr. Olivier Ameisen's book?
Take care. You're in the right place.

[Lowcountryman]

Titrating down from 400mg/d, diary

Yesterdaynight I skipped my last dose of 100 mg. Today I kept the same frequency, but instead of 100mg I took 75mg. So I'm on 300 mg/d now. (from now on I titrate down slowlier btw

Did it make a difference? Well, it did, a lot actually. I slept well for the first time I can remember since taking the higher doses.

When I woke up, I did not have to find out were and who I was and what I was supposed to do that day. Pretty clearheaded. That was a nice feeling let me tell you. It also surprised me, since I thought I was doing pretty well on 400 mg/d. I love it better this way. I guess I was getting used to feel like a zombie. Could also be because of the good night rest I got, I don't know yet.

Drinking/craving: I'm being honest here. During this journey I always kept 2 half-liters of cold beer in the fridge. I thought:" if this Baclofen-thing works, then a pile of cold beers up to the ceiling will not tempt me anymore". The taste of the pudding is in the eating, right? There should not be any obstacles for me to drink if i wanted to. If you believe that the Bac will work, then having consequently 2 cold beers in the fridge was only logical to me. I never felt bad opening a can.

Well, what can i say. I drank last months together about what I used to drink on one bad day. And suddenly you realize that you can never finish those beers even though you'd try real hard. I never had this feeling anymore, I guess everybody here knows, after being a few days AF, that you drink like a madman to make up for 'lost time'. (there's some scientific word for it)

[Sunnyvalenting]

Titrating down from 400mg/d, diary

Lowc,
I agree, those posting on the forum should document the successes and the failures. Otherwise we get a lopsided understanding. It sounds as tho it is working well for you.
Arbat, Take heart. the effective dose range is quite wide. In a recent study it was anywhere form 15-300mg/day. It is impossible to tell up front how much you may need. My advice is to try to also use whatever will power you may have and not just rely on the drug. The drug works on your cravings but won't substitute for your intention. Plan to succeed and use all your tools. Go slow. Watch for side effects response. I have been AF for 11+ months on bac. My highest dose was 110. I am currently only on 15/day at bedtime. I actually forgot to take it last night! Still indifferent to al. We are trying to rewire our brains. It can be done.
Welcome
Sunny

[ignominous]

Titrating down from 400mg/d, diary

Thread seems to have lost its momentum a bit so I'll add my tuppence worth (English for 2 cents worth).

I have also decided to taper down the Bac. In the last 5 weeks I've reduced from 250 to 150. Some of the dysphoria has come back but I wasn't taking Bac for that. Nearly all the side effects are gone, except maybe the forgetfulness but that's also not nearly so bad.

Still no craving for Al. Still not my nature. Miraculous still.

Will go down to 140 today. I have some willpower so when and if the cravings come back I'll be ready I hope. Also like to get a better understanding on how Baclofen is working for me. Plus like some margin for a prn dose when needed.

[Lowcountryman]

Titrating down from 400mg/d, diary

Ig,

Same here. I went down to 275 mg/d. Feel already another human being. By the way this was the level that I really had to stay on for a couple of weeks, because something told me the SE's were really too heavy.
Titrating down seems pretty easy for me anyway. Today I plan to take 5x50mg. Compared to the 4x100 is seems to make a lot of difference.

No cravings returning, and I feel like it's not going to happen soon. I drank a good glass wine at a dinner with some friends. I wasn't worried at all. Good wine though, I could really enjoy the taste of it, that's nice. And that was it. Exactly what I aimed for.
Sleep is getting very much better, still abnormal, but again: getting better. Also much less haze in my head. My head is pretty much connecting to my body again.

Since alcohol isn't an issue anymore, me and my psychiatrist decided to go on some treatment, EMDR, to remove the angles that triggered me, and might trigger me in the future, to start drinking. A short term therapy that works directly on rewiring/reconnecting the brain by sounds and bleeps. No long talking sessions for me. Because that is wat I've become to like about our beloved Bac

So far so good!

[lvb65]

Titrating down from 400mg/d, diary

Hi Ig, looks like we're more or less at the same stage. I still don't know if I hit my " switch" at 245 mg/day, now 15 days ago. Tomorrow I will be tapering down to 140 mg/day. My SE's amount to forgetfulness, still some pressure in my head, hands not coordinated, difficulty listening/ holding on to people talking for a longer period. Recently the thought of drinking a glas of wine has come back in my mind, but easily rejected until now.
Started Baclofen 12-10-10 went up to 245 mg/day 16-12-10 = 2.3 g/ Kg

All the best and a AF 2011

[ignominous]

Titrating down from 400mg/d, diary

Good to hear from you chaps.

I presume that your in Amsterdam, Low. And your psych sounds like an open minded and progressive guy, must be something in the culture there. From a brief google EMDR looks great for fast tracking the repairs, something similar tio tapping I suspect, No chance of me finding a practitioner here or even someone who has heard of it!

Keep posting and let us know about your drinking habits. I could swear that I could take a beer and leave it at that. However, I'm so grateful to be where I am atm that I just don't feel like fiddleing to much with it.

lv, if your like me and you haven't been drinking for a couple of weeks my guess is that you've hit it. My SEs are very manageable at my present level, just a bit more absent minded than I used to be! I'm aiming to titrate further down myself. Now at 140. Hope to get it under 100. The thought of enjoying a drink has occured to me but as you say its easily rejected, now that's a major change. I'll join you in a non alcoholic New Year. Cheers my friend!

[c0ffee]

Titrating down from 400mg/d, diary

i was at 400mg/day for the last 3 days and last night i got really scared. tightness in chest, heart palpataions, hyperventilating and sheer panic. my girlfriend got really scared and was about to call an ambulence. i was speaking tongues. even the beta blockers i'm taking didn't level me out. I think I've slept about 4-5 hours in the past 2 days. this dose is too high for me right now. will do 300 today. 100 in the morning, 60 afternoon, 60 early evening and 80 at night.

also, people seem to be able to very much define an exact date as to when they hit this switch. not sure if i have??

also, the worst thing happened last night. i was over a friends place drinking a sprite out of a glass. he had vodka on the rocks sitting right next to mine. i accidently grabbed his and took a sip thinking it was my sprite. i realized it after i had swallowed a little bit and then ran to the sink and spit the rest out. people might say this is bs, but i really didn't realize it until i swallowed a bit. my friend does not have a problem- he likes to have one or two when he gets home from work so i didn't see being at his place as a trigger at all. i did not set myself up for anything like this to happen but I'm sure I would hear every excuse in the book, that I myself could never even conjure up, from an AA member as to how I 'subconsciously' did and it should technically be considered a relapse. anyway, to my disappointment, even from the tiny sip hitting my stomach, I felt the phenomenon of craving set in and wanted more. i immediately started eating everything i could find in his refridgerator to offset this and it 'did' seem to work. not sure if this means anything?? but of course, this scenario would only happen to someone with my luck.

maybe I'm thinking too much of this baclofen remedy as being the absolute 'silver bullet'. but from the posts i've been looking at it seems as though behaviours need to be changed as well. sometimes maybe i feel like drinking out of habit after doing it for so long. i dunno?? in dr. A's experience, when he hit his threshold dose at 270mg, he describes the experience to be so profound?? he also said that for a while he avoided certain ppt's and situations but then realized he didn't need to do that. he was completely and effortlessly indifferent?? i also read somewhere that he says he can have a sip of champaige if he wants and not overindulge- not sure if that's true b/c it was mentioned on here that he has been abstinent since 2004. if the rats in the cage were 'indifferent' then why wouldn't they grab a drink every now and then? aparently it supressed motivation to consume addictive substances in animal studies completely. humans have more of a 'where with all' to know that they should abstain completely.

i don't want to drink anymore.

just a bit confused here and by nature, i question and over-analyze everything. if anyone could shed some light, i would appreciate it. i have a feeling that a response might be something simple like: 'c0ffee, if you don't feel like you've hit the 'switch' yet, then you probably haven't'. but how do you know that you have if there might still be 'triggers'? maybe i'm looking for answers to some more complicated questions that nobody could possibly answer such as what the rats in the cage must have thought- hahaha! but still, if anyone has any thoughts, i'm totally open even if it is what the rats may have thought. Lol.

i really want to have faith in this whole baclofen thing but its like with this heightened anxiety, panic and insomnia on a dose this high the cravings have gotten even worse b/c we all know that the best remedy for anxiety, panic and insomnia is alcohol. its almost as if i feel this whole thing has backfired on me. Dr. Ameisen reported magical relaxation, no cravings or anxiety and overwhelming somnolence at his threshold dose.

i mean at 400mg/day i feel like i'm going right out of my mind. but how much is enough? have I hit this supposed 'switch' and don't even know it? help!

-paul

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Titrating down from 400mg/d, diary

Paul,
There is so much to respond to in your post. I understand your fear. I hesitate to give advice. Maybe pm one of the other stratosphere people and see how they dealt with those SEs? I've experienced all of those SEs at different points. The anxiety, panic etc... was much worse for me at the lower doses, though now I can feel them creeping back in.
The insomnia is an issue, honestly. Lack of sleep is not good for the mind or body. And I wonder if there isn't a direct correlation between sleeplessness and the other SEs? Conjecture on my part, of course.
I'm considering a sleep aid for the first time in my life.
Hang in there, okay? Playing with the dosage and the frequency would be what I would do, too.
It seems like you already know this, but here's a passage OA wrote about the rats:

In this regard, it fascinated me that baclofen had suppressed laboratory animals' self-administration of alcohol, cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine, and nicotine. With enough baclofen, the animals lost their motivation to consume the addictive substance--whatever it was. The lab animals could not tell researchers whether reward, relief, or obsessive cravings were uppermost in their minds. It certainly made no sense to distinguish between early-onset and late-onset addicition in animals deliberately addicted to a substance as part of a scientific experiment. And they did not stop consuming addictive substances because they understood the behavior was detrimental to their health or had an awakening. But they stopped.
p165
Of course there is much more.
The first time I read it, I was ecstatic about the last two sentences. This time I wonder what 'lost their motivation' means? Were they curled up in the fetal position twitching? Were they staring blankly out the walls of their cages, lost in their own little worlds? Were they gnawing their own limbs off to keep from hitting the damn lever? Praying to their little rat gods? ha.
But the people around here who've gotten where I desperately want to be aren't doing those things. They're exercising and finding hobbies, or living in existential angst. Or a combination.
Someone around here hit the switch on the way down. I'm feeling pretty bac-wonky atm, so don't remember who.
Most of the questions you have are the same ones we all do. Latch on to the success stories and keep your eyes on the goal. Keep posting and sharing, I swear it helps. It's weird how much it works.
I think it's also telling, and missed this the first time I read the book, how many tools OA used in his fight. Things that we've all learned, if you've been to the church basements or rehab. Or a decent shrink. One day a time. Affirmations. This too shall pass. The serenity prayer. Social support is huge for any goal. A little humility. Some will power, new habits/food/supps etc... I know, I know. But if this is it, isn't it worth it to use EVERYTHING?
Are you watching the other meds and their impact, as well? I know, I know. But the contraindications are based on 80mg/day for people being treated for spasticity.

One of the things I loved about AA was that in the right crowd, everything was just feckin' funny. Suicide attempts, stupidity in the face of horrors, shameful behavior... I had a group of friends there that could turn the worst drunkalogue into a fall-down-laughter fest. (of course, all but one started drinking again. sigh.)
The vodka episode must have been very scary. But I hope that someday it will be funny.
Read birdy's blog if you haven't already. That woman has some moxie. She was overdosing on bac and felt so badly she took more. :H I can most definitely relate.
Finally, marathon, not race. When I first started I thought 3 months...then I read more...then thought 6 months...just as I was about to type this, I thought, "I'll give it a good year. Even if it's hell, it'll be better than 40 (?) more years of hell." ha.
I don't want to drink anymore, either.
Take good care of yourself.
:l