Sever Debilitating Depression

[happyfeet]

To any and all experienced users of Baclofen, please look at my post under Otter's thread re: delerium and hallucinations. I could really use some advice/feedback here. Feel a little like I'm drowning here.

Sorry to post in this way.

[happyfeet]

Sever Debilitating Depression

Here's the link (had to post twice before it would let me do this)... sorry about the spelling mistake in the thread title.

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ml#post1038200

[Lo0p]

Sever Debilitating Depression

I have no experience with this (per se) but I would be very cautious about titrating down that quickly. I suppose you could call Dr. Levin and ask him if what you are going through is indeed a possible side effect of titrating down that quickly.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Sever Debilitating Depression

Your post makes my heart ache. Both because I have those feelings and because it makes me want to reach out... And I have no solution or advice, except this:

I took notes as best I could type the last time I talked to the good doctor. This is what I wrote, that he said toward the end of our conversation:
Your body will become what it was before AL. You will just keep getting smarter and smarter. And nicer and more sweet.

And Lo0p's response:
He nailed it. It isn't brief though, it just keeps getting better and better.

HF, you've got several replies on a couple of different threads:
https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...iew-46839.html
and the delirium thread by otter.

I don't think those feelings are exclusive to AL/sobriety, ftr. I'm 41, and know lots of people in our age group who are struggling with the same thoughts. They buy a car, or find a hottie, or discover booze. We get to really live for the first time in a long time. I'm looking forward to it, though am very nervous about doing it without my booze-blankie.
I hope you have support in real-life, but know that you have it virtually. I'm glad you posted, thank you. Dr. L's info can be found here:
https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ion-47247.html
I hope you'll continue to share your progress, good/bad/indifferent.
:l

[terryk]

Sever Debilitating Depression

Happyfeet- I'm writing a reply right now in the Delirium and hallucinations thread. Check for it soon.

-tk

[happyfeet]

Sever Debilitating Depression

Thank you all for your thoughts and words. I am going to write this in this thread because I obviously but inadvertently hijacked Otter's delirium thread. Hopefully, this will bring some responses.

Ig - thank you for your response ... it never ceases to amaze me how "similar" some character types are when it comes to substance abuse. I fully realize that everyone is different, but there really seems to be a "type" that is the life of the party and full of fire and potential when they are young (in their 20s ... and maybe 30s). Unfortunately, it also seems to be the case that this true marriage of brains, creativity and social power seems to only truly appear or come together under the influence of one or more substances. All those traits and more were me, but I was always at my most inspiring when I was a little bit drunk. Why is that? Is it because all that potential just lies hidden under a surface veneer of social anxiety and fear? Does the addition of a little CNS depressant wipe away the constructs and filters of our upbringing/biological tendency to be fearful of others just enough to reveal what is truly underneath? Whatever the case, the addition of that social lubricant into my life ended up turning around and devouring all that "potential" and promise.

Neva - thank you as well - I realize my emotions are related to a classic mid-life crisis (I can't even type those words without wanting to cry or throw up), but this soul sucking despair seems to go far deeper than that ... thank for your thoughts ... and I am trying to deal with things, but .... can't start drinking, don't have the money to buy a sports car .... already have the hottie ... but that's not so good because we really don't have much in common ... other than the fact that we both think she's hot.

SeethePony - thanks for your words as well - I do realize that there is still time left to achieve some modest things (I really would like to be an astronaut ... c'mon, wouldn't we all? ... but I gave that one up at about 22), but it is very hard to get people to take you seriously in this world when you have great social media/tech/other business ideas, etc. and you're over 40 ... whining, perhaps, but it is true. I still keep having these ideas ... had them my whole life but was never able to independently take them to the next level ... I just wish there were forums where I could share the ideas (without getting ripped off) and my marketing skills with others who have the programming/tech and finance skills ... sigh ... useless dreaming again ...

IWTBS thank you for the reply - I very much appreciate how serious down and up titrating on Baclofen can be ... I too believe it is an invaluable drug, but, quite frankly, your story scared the bejeezus out of me and sort of made me (yet again) want to reach a point where I was free of all medicines/substances (including Baclofen). Perhaps it is not possible, but I just want to be free and clean of everything ... and even a small raise in blood pressure over an extended period can have devastating consequences. Although, this has to be balanced against liver counts that are higher than normal (which mine were) and imminent liver failure/heart disease/brain damage from drug and alcohol abuse.

Terry K .. thanks for your post as well - it is good to see that someone went through the depressive periods ... that makes me feel more comfortable. I also agree that Baclofen is changing something more fundamental regarding the dopamine/serotonin reward system; however, I believe it has something more to do with proprioception. Let me explain briefly (although I am not that good at that): After reading the BDNF/dopamine article published in Nature in 2009 (the one recommended by Dr. Levin), it struck me as similar to articles I had read about the relationship between ibogaine and GDNF, gluatamine and GDNF and melatonin and GDNF (ibogaine being a psychoactive substance that has also shown some promise in treating addiction ... albeit with even more controversy ... and more hallucinations). Tying this together with some very interesting research regarding addiction and both the amygdyla and the sensoriomotor cortex, I think there is a relationship between our physical sense of "self" and social anxiety and both GDNF and BDNF, which are neurotrophic factors that (among other things) are heavily indicated in the development of sensoriomotor neurons. I realize that this probably seems wacky and convoluted, but the essential feature is that this is the body learning at a far deeper level than anything occurring in the cerebrum. Some very interesting research has shown that the part of the brain extending down from the medulla oblongata (the spinal cord essentially) can and does "learn" independent of higher brain function (particularly research on rats whose spinal columns had been severed being exposed to stimulus which they then learned to "respond to" independent of conscious thought). I think that maybe what is going on is happening on a deeper, more motor neuron level - a learned response many of us have to our environment. We don't feel we quite fit because our deeper motor system has learned that we are perpetually in danger (slight, but there nonetheless). No matter what we tell ourselves consciously, we cannot shut off the connection between dopamine and BDNF/GDNF production that is connected to our learned physically anxious state (ie. the sensoriomotor cortex, proprioception and amygdala feedback). As long as our proprioception is "fearful" within the environment rather than comfortable, dopamine will be produced to reward and keep our fear system active. And, as long as the deeper motor neuron "learned" state remains fearful, these anxious signals will continue to be sent to the sensoriomotor cortex, etc. It is a vicious circle ... until a CNS depressant like alcohol or opiates come along to halt or dampen the motor signals (or even cocaine, which probably just pushes the system over the other way into full fear and alert/danger mode, which probably "feels" better because the expected ramp up state is finally realized). And that, I think, may be where Baclofen comes in - it interferes with the BDNF/dopamine feedback for addictive people - ie. it interferes with the fear/reward feedback system at a motor level. ....................

Ha ha ... okay, you are all probably reading that thinking .... "so, I guess he fell off the wagon." Not so, not so - I have spent far too much time over the last few years reading about neuropsychiatry in an attempt to understand my own mystifying behaviour (ie. why do I do these things when they make absolutely no rational sense) ... and this is yet more of the wasted time I am currently lamenting.

[beatle]

Sever Debilitating Depression

Wasted time?

happyfeet;1038644 wrote: ... I have spent far too much time over the last few years reading about neuropsychiatry in an attempt to understand my own mystifying behaviour (ie. why do I do these things when they make absolutely no rational sense) ... and this is yet more of the wasted time I am currently lamenting.

I also lament almost everything since my drinking started to take over my life (in my late 20s), and am in despair in a similar way to you -- I managed to drink myself out of a promising career, a promising family, and all friendships old and new. And I, too, have done extensive reading/individual research (which includes and adds MWO to that) in regard to, and as a result of, my drinking... but the research and reading (and participation on MWO) have provided me with the only lifeline left. It would not be exaggerating to say I would probably dead right now if not for the research I have done and for MWO (which dovetail with each other). Without those, I would continue to believe that everything that happened to me was my fault, that I was a weak person who destroyed my life through my weakness, and that there was no hope for a life ever again without continual self-flagellation, apologizing, making amends, and wallowing in regrets (the last of which I continue to do every moment of every day). In short, even if I didn't manage to drive my body to death, I would finish myself off in a more rapid path to the inevitable conclusion.

So, I don't consider that research and time on MWO as wasted time -- it's the last 15 years that I consider wasted time. If only I had done all that research and found MWO back when I understood already that I had a serious drinking problem... then again, there probably wouldn't be any of those resources back then anyway.

[beatle]

Sever Debilitating Depression

I should add that I have undergone extensive (once or twice a week) psychotherapy over the past 3 years (since I had my real breakdown, losing my job and family), and although it was drinking that lead me to the therapy, I also don't consider that wasted time (nor wasted money).

[taw]

Sever Debilitating Depression

I have put off posting this because my depression is not caused by bac as I am only on day 4...

I have suffered from depression most of my life. I have been on prozac since June 25, 1999 after I tried to walk in front of a train...this was only one of several suicide attempts...the most current of which was almost 2 years ago and landed me in yet another rehab...

I have also been an alcoholic for 20+ years...did this make my depression worse or vice versa? Not sure, but what I have found in periods of sobriety is that every single feeling and emotion are on high alert, code red, as raw as they could be, like a fresh papercut, if that makes any sense...after being numb for so long, even status quo felt intense...

I just wanted to say I wish you the best...maybe you need some additional meds in your arsenol for the time being...

Let us know how you are feeling! I wish you the best...I know how overwhelmingly desperate things can feel!

[Greg]

Sever Debilitating Depression

taw;1038764 wrote: Not sure, but what I have found in periods of sobriety is that every single feeling and emotion are on high alert, code red, as raw as they could be, like a fresh papercut, if that makes any sense...after being numb for so long, even status quo felt intense...

This makes perfect sense to me, since it has also been my experience during various periods of sobriety. I have heard many others say similar, including sober AA members. I would imagine this would also be very apparent among rehab patients. This emotionally overwhelming state in the main reason why I have constantly looked to "alcohol substitutes" to continue some level of emotional escape, rather than spending much time totally 100-percent sober. I realise that a better way of coping is needed however, which may include medication for a while (as long as the medication doesn't produce too much emotional numbness, which many drugs can do). Many people would probably swear by CBT, and while it failed to help me, it could very well help you and others who have trouble with their emotions when they become sober.

[taw]

Sever Debilitating Depression

Greg...I have been in and out of CBT for most of my life...and it has not worked...I have tried all different docs and specialities and meds...Bac is my last hope...if I can keep on a regime and stick with it, I think it will work. I tended to stop taking prozac after I felt better then would sink deeper than I ever had...If I can manage to stick with both religously I am hopeful that it will work and begin repairing my f'ed up brain!

[susiesmum]

Sever Debilitating Depression

Happyfeet, do you have a link for that article, BDNF/dopamine article published in Nature in 2009 please? I can't for the life of me find it. Thanks.

[seeking_serenity]

Sever Debilitating Depression

susiesmum, here is the article in full as posted by neva eva last month: It was actually from the journal Science, in June 2009.

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...fen-46761.html

I couldn't make heads nor tails of it personally. The good dr. explained to me that what the study showed was that when brain-derived neurotrophic factors (BDNFs) bond with the GABA receptors, you end up with addiction. According to that study, Baclofen prevents them from forming bonds. He said that this study was revolutionary, and "Big Pharma is pissed."

[susiesmum]

Sever Debilitating Depression

Thanks so much! This site is a goldmine for info. All of you here are awesome and thanks for the support when I venture in here!

[Otter]

Sever Debilitating Depression

Hi Happy

There is good reason to think your depression is biological and can be corrected. Here is a link which I found interesting in relation to serotonin deficiency:

L-Tryptophan* Natures Answer to Prozac The "serotonin deficiency syndrome" is one of the most common and widespread disorders of human psychobiology in the modern world

"Chronic alcoholism may also have a serotonin component. Research with animals and humans has shown that alcohol initially increases serotonin nerve activity; yet chronic alcohol use impairs tryptophan entry into the brain. Thus, chronic alcoholism may involve a vicious spiral of a brief alcohol-induced increase of serotonin neural activity, with consequent sense of well-being, combined with an ever-worsening baseline state of serotonin nerve activity due to alcohol's impairment of brain tryptophan transport."

It seems to me that you have to address serotonin deficiency to overcome alcoholism.

I find it intriguing that the article in Healthland New Version of an Old Drug Could Treat Autism (and Addiction Too) ? TIME Healthland mentions the connection between autism and the amygdala:
"Animal models of autism and Fragile X suggest that part of the problem in these disorders is overactivity in a brain region called the amygdala, which is associated with fear and anxiety, and is normally calmed by GABA. Another problem may be a general reduction in activity in the whole brain's inhibitory circuitry, which relies on GABA as its main neurotransmitter.
A study published in the Journal of Neuroscience in July found that mice missing the same gene that fails in Fragile X not only had fewer inhibitory brain connections in general, but also had reductions in GABA availability in a key part of the amygdala. In these mice, a drug that increased GABA action (via a different route than that used by STX209) reduced the overactivity in the amygdala that resulted from the GABA deficit.
In another animal model of autism which found amygdala effects, researchers exposed pregnant rats to a drug called valproic acid (VPA). One in 10 human babies whose mothers have taken valproic acid during pregnancy develop autism. Rat pups born to exposed mothers were found to have increased activity in the amygdala and a resulting intensification of fear, compared with rats with mothers that didn't get the drug. VPA rats were quicker than unexposed rats to learn to fear a situation; they were also more likely to generalize that fear to other similar experiences, and slower to learn when the scary situation was rendered safe. They also showed other, autistic-like behaviour."

I mentioned in an earlier thread the development of Optimax by Merck. This is amusing because it is the "third generation" of anti depressants and it is just L-Tryptophan but can only be used here in a hospital setting. The pharmaceutical industry now recognizes that serotonin deficiency can be treated by increasing serotonin levels. What genius!

You can order L-tryptophan over the internet. Joan Larson in Seven Weeks to Sobriety suggests taking three doses of 1000mg daily. I think this is an extremely important part of recovery from alcoholism as the syndrome only worsens with the length of time drinking.

I also think that what is referred to as "alcoholism" as being a bundle of symptoms is part of the same spectrum of anxiety/amygdala related symptoms which also include austistic symptoms. They all seem to relate to the same "functional or quantitative" deficiency referred to by Olivier Ameisen.

Those are my thoughts. I hope they help.

Best wishes