Baclofen Ladies!

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen Ladies!

Also, I think this is relevant info:

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ala-48931.html

Thanks, Otter!

[ignominious]

Baclofen Ladies!

I am interested to see how severely different the SEs are for men and women so I decided to look at this ladies thread.

I see you've been here Ne

Ne/Neva Eva;1083522 wrote:
On page 26 there is a synopsis of the differences between men and women in the study.

but you don't mention that this was a small study of 12 males and 6 female some of which didn't even take baclofen because they were taking the placebo.

Also you fail to mention that on page 27, when they draw conclusions from the results of the study they say and I quote:

"Overall minimal sex differences were observed in this study"

My summation and theirs is rather different from yours

Ne/Neva Eva;1083522 wrote:
This sums it up pretty well I think. Scientifically and in no uncertain terms there are differences between the SEs for men and women.

I'm sure that there are differences between male and female reactions to baclofen and as yet I haven't read the amygdala article that Otter posted. Lets try to make some sense of this.

[redhead77]

Baclofen Ladies!

So, I did some research today, looking for a the link. I did find out some interesting stuff. For example, in female rats, baclofen decreases 5 HT (the receptor sites to serotonin), to a signifigant degree. If this carries over to the human population of females, this could prove to be enormous.

In prepubescent females, it also decreases LH (luteinizing hormone) and FH (follicle stimulating hormone). No studies have been done that I could find on adult rats. Since they have normal fertility, I would think LH and FSH may be normal in the adult?

The GABAergic system is different in male and female rats, and also in humans. I couldn't however research that more. Unfortunately, these articles cost $30 plus bucks to get, wish I lived closer to a university.

Female rats on chronic baclofen (measured by greater than 2 years), also have an increased incidence of enlarged adrenal glands and adrenal hemorrhage.

What I didnt think I would find, but did:

Sex differences in the effects of baclofen on the ... [Drug Alcohol Depend. 2002] - PubMed result

Just some stuff I researched today. If any of it is redundant, I apologize. There is a ton of info on these forums, and I never know what is already out there.

[Booktree]

Baclofen Ladies!

redhead77;1083848 wrote: The GABAergic system is different in male and female rats, and also in humans. I couldn't however research that more. Unfortunately, these articles cost $30 plus bucks to get, wish I lived closer to a university.

I work at a university library with full-text electronic databases in science, medicine, nursing, etc. If it would be helpful, I would be happy to look up any articles you're trying to access and send them your way, or summarize the findings for you. What search terms are you using? Or are there particular articles you have in mind? Just let me know the titles of articles/name of journal, etc., and I will see what I can find.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen Ladies!

My purpose for investigating this has nothing to do with an "us vs. them" mentality and everything to do with an understanding of what and how bac works for me. The fact that I am a woman, and there are other women here with the same concerns prompts me to look deeper into why and how bac can be successfully used to find indifference. I hope that this understanding will help elucidate what steps I should take going forward to maintain my indifference. There is only *one* example of a woman on this forum with long term sobriety. (sunnyvalenting, 14 months) That's a small sample size to base my long term success on. I've turned, again, to the research, lacking though it is!

That's it. No other motive/agenda.

ignominious;1083599 wrote:
but you don't mention that this was a small study of 12 males and 6 female some of which didn't even take baclofen because they were taking the placebo
There are actually many reasons that this study doesn't apply directly to me. The most important of which, imo, is that they were heavy social drinkers, 28 units per week. (That's heavy???)
They were not alcoholics, were "not alcohol dependent." Also, the participants were not seeking treatment for AL abuse/issues.

ignominious;1083599 wrote: Also you fail to mention that on page 27, when they draw conclusions from the results of the study they say and I quote:
"Overall minimal sex differences were observed in this study"

The researchers then go on to explore some of the differences and the reasons for them. Then they explain that the study was not to explore the efficacy of high-dose-bac for treating AL, but the safety of it.

Interesting stuff, all in all. After considerable thought I maintain that bac and al produce different effects and results for women and men.

RedH, I started to respond to your post, but realized I would be quoting the entire thing and mostly to ask questions.
GREAT job. Thank you very much.
Your background may make it easier for you to understand the conclusions... If you care to elucidate for the lowest common denominator (me) that would be helpful. eg. what specifically does serotonin have to do with it, and how does one manage it both during the process and after indifference...
Many more questions, but I'll do the research first...
Really, thank you so much.
I can probably get my hands on the studies, too, if Book can't. It'll take me a lot longer, I'm sure. Might be interesting to read through them, suss out what's important and add to the consolidated info thread for bac-taking. But I'm getting ahead of myself... again. ha!
:goodjob:
Ne

[TracyA]

Baclofen Ladies!

Ne/Neva Eva;1084035 wrote:

There is only *one* example of a woman on this forum with long term sobriety. (sunnyvalenting, 14 months)
But Sunny never went on a high dose. She topped out at around 110 mg, IIRC. Her maintenance dose is 20 mg.

There are actually many reasons that this study doesn't apply directly to me. The most important of which, imo, is that they were heavy social drinkers, 28 units per week. (That's heavy???)

That barely qualifies as light-weight.

I'm interested in the serotonin stuff too. I'm wondering if that doesn't have something to do with the issues UK has been struggling with.

[redhead77]

Baclofen Ladies!

Thanks Booktree! I'm interested in the GABAergic systems of the different sexes since bac is involved in GABAb. I'll let you know later in the weekend, the 3 articles I found, maybe if you could even get your hands on one. I'm not sure how much time or energy you have to do this.

So many of the articles I could find were only abstracts, and the few full articles I found only left me with more questions. I think it would take quite a bit of time to do a full lit review, but one that may be needed.


There might even be more info on these forums. I saw when I was searching that back in July, there was a discussion of a rat study on impotence in male rats. Terry k was involved in it and Zenstyle. Those were the only two names I recognized.

Most of the research on sexual differences in rats on bac is just that. It's having to do with sexual dysfunction. I do have to say beatle that the female rats have sexual dysfunction too. In them it is thought to relate to serotonin and in the males one of the main contributors is oxytocin. The females tend to be avoidant of sex (no lewd comments here boys, Ne has labeled this the serious thread).

Ne, serotonin is the neurotransmitter that helps us feel calm and relaxed. It also contributes to feelings of personal security, concentration, and confidence.

A deficiency could cause anxiety and depression (and all that comes with that), sleep disturbances, and maybe sexual disturbances from problems with the above.

I'm not sure that anything needs to be done unless one thinks these issues are affecting them. I kind of thinking no, for you Ne, to a few of them. Rats aren't human and while the sexual response thing has proved to be accurate, I don't think we could really be sure about the rest.

There is a reduction in receptor sites. Being that I'm not a neuroscientist or doctor, I have no idea how much of a reduction needs to occur before a serotonin deficiency would develop. They did mention a signifigant reduction in one study I believe.

If you wanted to increase your levels of serotonin it could be done naturally with diet. A diet high in brown rice, eggs, cheese, fish (salmon), and chicken or turkey. It is said that calmness and sleepiness one gets after Thanksgiving is partly related to the tryptophan in turkey. Plus pigging out of course!

Other methods are L-tryptophan and 5-HTP, both are supplements. And of course the SSRI's. The antidepressants that block the reuptake of serotonin in the brain, but that would only be if one was clinically depressed.

Unfortunately, I think I have more questions than answers. I just don't think we will have many answers until more human studies are done. The results of those will take years. Sigh.

[fickle]

Baclofen Ladies!

This is a great thread! Thank you all so much. So much fabulous information not to be found anywhere else.

I've taken a couple of months away from bac mainly due to finances and wanting to get some perspective. One positive thing to report is that the experience of being on bac and losing the anxiety meant that it gave me greater insight into my past anxiety and moods that has lasted really well. I have so much more power over it all. I just find that I've never gone back to that point of feeling depressed or terrified. The only time i've been anxious is when hungover and I recognise it as purely that: the result of chemical poisoning from al.

However, I personally am very concerned about the study that shows adrenal glands are enlarged in cronic bac using female rats and here is why.. I hope I can articulate this.

Over time I've learned a lot about the connection between moods and diet, specifically I was on a typical 'low fat high carb' diet as was commonly recommended back in the days when I was having kids. The result was utter destruction of my health. I did not realise it until I went on the Atkins diet at some point when everything suddenly got better. I lost all excess weight, my skin got good, no bad moods, no drinking, no depression, heck even my hair even grew back. Eventually bad stuff happened in my life and it all fell apart again.

Generally though, through reading things like 'syndrome x' and other books including 'my way out' I've understood that amino acids are really important, so are proteins, fats, oils and nuts etc.. hormonal balance is knocked about by constant extreme stress, often experienced by someone whose life is in a mess, and it is also totally stuffed by constant sugar overdose such as al. (lets face it, a disastrous personal life and overdoing al go hand in hand like chicken and egg).

The result is over stimulation of the adrenal glands - adrenal fatigue - which really, really messes with the hormones and your hypothalamus.. everything is downhills from there. It's easy to think you've completely lost your marbles at this point.

Anyway, that's just a rather garbled attempt to explain my thoughts. Any further advice/discussion/opinions most welcome.

I'm still hoping that I can restart my journey with bac and get to the switch then titrate down as I don't want to be on it long term. biggest reason for me is that there are no doctors prescribing it in my country so it's all down to me. Not smart. Am willing to risk it short term if it works.

Thanks again for a great thread!!

[redhead77]

Baclofen Ladies!

Hi Fickle. Glad to see you are back here. You started an amazing thread.

I tried to find the exact rat study (studies), today to see what dose of bac the rats were on who suffered the enlarged adrenals. I found out they were on oral bac, but I still can't find the actual studies, to determine the dose. I will eventually, and soon I predict.

I know about your concerns with the adrenals. I have done some research on adrenal fatigue too. I know that alkies often drink to combat it, but it is a viscious cycle, that the depletes the adrenals even more. I have numerous signs of it. I am in no way an expert, and would like to learn more.

Unfortunately, the female rats with decreased serotonin also had high levels of noradrenaline. A good sign the adenals are overworking. I'm not giving it too much weight personally. I hope the doses I find the rats to be on are high, and I hope to be at a low dose in 2 years. I will however try to baby my adrenals in the meantime.

What are the best ways to do this? Since you are already doing this and have a ton of knowledge on it, maybe you could be the guide?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen Ladies!

TracyA;1084118 wrote: But Sunny never went on a high dose. She topped out at around 110 mg, IIRC. Her maintenance dose is 20 mg.
Lots of other differences to be found in her story, too. Two that stand out for me: She was AF from the beginning and she had two weeks of intensive therapy in an outpatient rehab. (6 hours a day, one on one!)
Doesn't mean that other ways are less effective. It's just one piece of the puzzle.

fickle;1084590 wrote: This is a great thread! Thank you all so much. So much fabulous information not to be found anywhere else.
.....
(lets face it, a disastrous personal life and overdoing al go hand in hand like chicken and egg).
.....
The result is over stimulation of the adrenal glands - adrenal fatigue - which really, really messes with the hormones and your hypothalamus.. everything is downhills from there. It's easy to think you've completely lost your marbles at this point.

Agreed with the first two. I'm very grateful for this thread, and for being able to explore these issues. Considering the fact that we have a lot of similarities, it'll be interesting to explore the ways in which it's different. It just doesn't make sense to me that the SEs and the doses needed are so all over the place.

I'm fascinated by the information you shared about the adrenal glands. I wonder if we can't follow this all bac to a starting point (the pituitary?) toward the goal of finding a way to manage bac better.

redhead77;1085000 wrote: Hi Fickle. Glad to see you are back here. You started an amazing thread.

Unfortunately, the female rats with decreased serotonin also had high levels of noradrenaline. A good sign the adenals are overworking. I'm not giving it too much weight personally. I hope the doses I find the rats to be on are high, and I hope to be at a low dose in 2 years. I will however try to baby my adrenals in the meantime.

What are the best ways to do this? Since you are already doing this and have a ton of knowledge on it, maybe you could be the guide?

The doses the rats were on that OA studied were taking less than I am at my maintenance dose. Which gives me a bit of consternation.
Sadly, I'll have to google adrenal gland just to get up to speed with you two, but I'll have some time this week to explore...

And how does one baby a gland, exactly? Fickle?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen Ladies!

hmmm. I suspect that this train of thought is rather moot and might just descend into speculation and not action...

I started looking into the functions of the amygdala over the weekend, and that led me bac to the limbic system as a whole, to gain a better foothold on the basic terminology. Which led me to a comparison of the limbic and the endocrine systems.

Which are completely intertwined. Professionals whose life's purpose it is to understand this are still struggling to figure out not just which came first, but which things are the chickens and which are the eggs and which just don't matter.



Just the initial foray into it, though, left me fascinated and alarmed. Fascinated because of all of the things our brains do, and alarmed because I'm playing with mine! Still, so far so good and I love my new life and the new me.

so bac to the original programming? women and bac? be they mothers or not... I don't think you have to feel as though this is different for women than it is for men (as I do) to appreciate finding support from people who have very similar experiences in life... I enjoy my women friends for reasons that are different than the reasons I enjoy my men friends. No more, no less, still enjoy them all.
:ls and :h friends.
Ne

[TracyA]

Baclofen Ladies!

Ne/Neva Eva;1085818 wrote:
Which are completely intertwined. Professionals whose life's purpose it is to understand this are still struggling to figure out not just which came first, but which things are the chickens and which are the eggs and which just don't matter.

I was watching a program about much we understand, compared to how much we don't know, about how the brain works. One of the scientists made a statement along the lines of, "If our brains were simple enough to understand, we would be too simple to understand them."

[Bruunhilde]

Baclofen Ladies!

Good one Tracy!

[coalfire]

Baclofen Ladies!

Can I ask a little favour from all you Baclofen ladies? I am very interested in the genetics behind alcoholism and the idea that there are different types of alcoholics. This is the type of thing that really interests me
https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...self-5100.html
It all seems so random somehow and the idea that maybe they could come up with a personalised alcohol treatment plan fascinates me.Anyway in the GD section today I have asked a question"Were you a heavy drinker before you were an alcoholic" I would love to hear your replies. I like to look at patterns that emerge from certain drinkers and their successful treatments in the end. I suppose I get frustrated now when someone claims a success then vanishes(or failure). I want to say whoa there come back! I love to read about what type of drinker they were as in the quizz above ,drinking patterns etc. Thanks in advance to all who respond to my thread in the General discussion section.

[Bruunhilde]

Baclofen Ladies!

I did this test a few years ago and was allergic/addicted. I remember that my celtic ancestry indicated I'd need Omega 3's en masse, which I was already taking for my cholesterol per another book on that.