Seroquel instead of Prosac

[Longshot]

Seroquel instead of Prosac

beatle;1058017 wrote: It's not clear -- did zolpidem work for you?

It does work in the form of Halcyon. The problem is with most sleeping tablets is they worked for about a week to 10 days, and the effectiveness started to diminish. As I the insomnia started to take effect, I started to titrate up on bach, and endured some incredible work related and personal stress, that was more or less unbearable.

This sleep deprivation has continued throughout December and January.

Over the course of the last ten days I've started jogging, 20 minutes a day at about 5:30pm. I'm taking 10mg of melatonin, and magnesium.

Any other ideas.

[Longshot]

Seroquel instead of Prosac

Okay I've done a piss poor way of explaining this.

Back in August last year I was really in a fucked up way. I'd been on a really nice sober holiday with a AA theme (not pressured but I feel I had to go to one meeting)

AA was simply not working for me, and I was devastated, depressed furious, near psychotically angry all the time. My therapist was useless pretty much a AA facilitator.

I decided to drop AA, mainly after watching the Penn and Teller documentary, which led to further reading. I learnt more time learning about the problems two relatives of mine had with AA, to the point of suicide.

This shouldn't mean AA isn't right for you, and can't work. Its just not for me.

And my wife discovered this forum and she suggested Baclofen, and let me come to on my own terms.

And I readily agreed. Oh I was shit with it, at first. Drinking heavily at the start, keep going. Undoing the work.

My job was super stressful. I know everyone's job is super stressful. But this was super stressful. A high point included my line manager taking me into his office, and explaining how the death of a colleague's father during the course of the project, had let the world see what a complete fucking bitch she truly was.

It was supposed to last months longer than this, instead I get sideline, have to spend my final weeks in a abandoned factory by myself, doing oodles of work, compressing months of work into days.

On top of that we have my first sober christmas, trips to the pub, 1st family christmas, and the stress of sleep deprivation (I'd been on prescription sleeping tablets for about a month).

Then my wife's uncle died over christmas. A chronic alcoholic. New Years eve was the removal, and the funeral was new years day. Then back to the stress zone that was my job.

So now I'm on 400mg bach, work has given me chronic insomnia, and the job finishes up. Not that I'm not getting e-mails every few days, trying to sort out problems based on stuff I didn't get to finish.I had been offered a job on a dream production, only the job wasn't what I thought it was, by now the insomnia just pretty full on. I don't really comprehended how people sleep. I drink on several occasions. Including when a friend turns up with her children all the way over from Australia. I'm gutted, and depressed more. Up my dose to 450mg.

Stress leads to depression, lead to insomnia, lead to depression, leads to insomnia.

By the end of January I'm on my 3rd kind of sleeping pill. I go for a job interview for my *fuck it that'll do job* now in my defence they do things ass backwards there, but sweet jesus christmas, I'm tired, and I'm being interviewed by someone who asks me technical questions he doesn't know the answer to, in my interview.

In this mindset I go to see the psychiatrist. One sees my wife, and one sees me. I'm really fucking tired and a whole rake of really upsetting early upsetting trauma comes out . Meanwhile the senior psychiatrist who sees my wife has her assessment cut short and does complete.

I'm told I'm clinically depressed and need Prozac. Only they go out of their way not to call it Prozac. And say I need to be on this till the end of my therapy.

They suggest two additional types of therapy, however the kicker is I have to go to open meetings at a Alcohol support centre. I'm empathatic I don't want anything I'm set to isn't involved with AA.

When I get home I discover it's one of those problem drinker walk in clinics, I've been to these and ended up sitting next to a man convicted of manslaughter, people turn up to these things hungover and pissed (I know, I sure as fuck did) and I'm supposed to go to this for at least 4 weeks. And drumroll please, the only number not referencing the health services on the brochure is the AA!

I've now also found out that the drug I'm on is infact Prozac. The discussion of the side effects was pathetically limited ( I swear to god when we got to sexual side effects they literally went "You know about the sexual side effects of anti depressants" ( I'd been on things like efexor before Bach), Me "Um sexual side effects, um, well", Psychiatrist; 'Great moving on")

There was no discussion about the insomnia side effect, or the physical addiction. The senior Psychiatrist legs it out of the room before the session is over. And it's made clear , that the additional therapy is based on me going to these open meeting and taking the drugs

So I get home, find out what I'm actually on, and find out this place has some connection with the AA, and started this thread.

I was not in a happy fun place.

Since I've yeld at the junior therapist, he's agreed to go forward with one therapy straight away, and make my own way to contact the other group. I can decide about the other group myself. And I don't have to take the drugs.

I'm really not wild on Prozac, and left I was being bullied into taking it, mainly because it was given out after barely being in the door for 10 minutes. And last night, through exercise and melatonin and sleeping tablets I had a decent night's sleep, and the world seems alot better.

Does that make alot more sense?

[bleep]

Seroquel instead of Prosac

Longshot, sorry for your troubles. It seems you are another "victim" of the caring medical establishment we have all come to know and love.

You said in another thread you were going to call Dr L, I think that's a great idea. In beatle's thread, he claims that the only people baclofen hasn't worked for are those that have stopped taking it, which certainly doesn't seem to apply in your case.

I have noticed after taking high-dose baclofen that a small reduction in dose makes a huge difference after a couple of days, in the side effects department, particularly sleep.Maybe, as Grommet suggested, try dropping down for a bit and see if that makes a difference.

Like you, I have no time for AA, and believe their whole methodology and practice to be based on incorrect ideas and assumptions. Wouldn't want to waste another minute of my life going through any of that again.

You don't mention, or I missed it, whether or not you are still drinking?

Good luck man, sounds like a rough patch to be in at the moment, I hope it improves.

[Longshot]

Seroquel instead of Prosac

bleep;1059218 wrote: Longshot, sorry for your troubles. It seems you are another "victim" of the caring medical establishment we have all come to know and love.

You said in another thread you were going to call Dr L, I think that's a great idea. In beatle's thread, he claims that the only people baclofen hasn't worked for are those that have stopped taking it, which certainly doesn't seem to apply in your case.

Thats true, in the early days my commitment to taking it was sporadic and I was very lackadaisical, and well stupid.

Then I had a few of those fuck off nasty horrendous Bach withdrawl+ booze hangovers (well a couple, did I mention I'm stupid?) And that kicked that to touch.

I'm methodical about my bach. Currently trying 2 125 in the morning, and 2 100 in the day (now switched as of last night to every 6hr intervals (9am, 3pm, 9pm, 3am)

I have noticed after taking high-dose baclofen that a small reduction in dose makes a huge difference after a couple of days, in the side effects department, particularly sleep.Maybe, as Grommet suggested, try dropping down for a bit and see if that makes a difference.

I had actually been contemplating upping my dose, good idea.

Like you, I have no time for AA, and believe their whole methodology and practice to be based on incorrect ideas and assumptions. Wouldn't want to waste another minute of my life going through any of that again.

Like I said, I was really empathetic about not doing anything to do with AA, and was assured this would have nothing to do with AA, and then finding AA quoted in the "other useful numbers" fucking threw me into a rage.

Maybe it won't be so bad, and I'm just over reacting. I'll want to speak to someone before I walk in the door off the street.

What I'm really angry about is that the two other forms of therapy were held in reserve until I went through this hoop.

One is dealing with stress management (my crutch to get through stress has always been drinking) and the other has to do with sexual abuse as a child.

I'm even sure I want to go fucking near the other one right now, as it will kick me off, but the implication was that before I can even go for either I need to have gone through alcohol treatment and be on prozac, left me fuming.

Hence the incoherent and furious first post.

When they were prescribing prozac they kept calling it Fluoxetine. The brand name, and when I called up and complained, the psychiatrist literally tried to bluff me, that it wasn't prozac. It's like writing a script for neurofen and saying "I didn't give you ibuprofen, I gave you neurofen" As if I can't read the fucking label.

And I'm damn angry that other forms of therapy are being held hostage for me attending some drink awareness seminar. It's on Wednesday mid morning for christ's sake, I'm job hunting!


You don't mention, or I missed it, whether or not you are still drinking?

I drank 4-5 times in January, got pissed a few times (over ten units) it's my default mechanism when coping with stress and exhaustion.

I look at people who can just fall asleep without booze, and right now I think "you jammy fucking bastards".

So I'm not drinking to get pissed, but I am drinking just to get out of my head space at the moment. Which is why I'm loath to say I've hit my switch. And it's why I'm loathe to titrate down, and then start drinking and get back into the place I was a few months ago, very quickly.


Good luck man, sounds like a rough patch to be in at the moment, I hope it improves.

Thank you.

I've been a bit of a forum leech. Ghosting and not posting, it just doesn't feel like I have anything positive to contribute.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Seroquel instead of Prosac

Longshot,
I've followed your journey from the beginning, I think.
What you're sharing right now is vitally important. Imperative, even.
You are so right to be fucking OUTRAGED! It makes me want to fly over and do something really irrational, like stand outside that clinic with a sign saying, "Beware all ye enter here! They are doing the same treatment that hasn't worked for ANYONE with the disease of alcoholism!" Aaaaargh!

I applaud you for your outrage. I applaud you and your wife for your relentlessness in seeking the cure in the face of such daunting circumstances. Please, please keep trying.

I am with you in spirit and you are in my thoughts. A robin-hood-esque hero and you'll come out ahead, with another rich fool robbed of his dignity because of your wit and wisdom.
Keep up the fight. We will triumph!
Karen/Ne

[bleep]

Seroquel instead of Prosac

I wouldn't titrate down as such - if you are on 450, I would just go to 430, and sit there. Such a small decrease is unlikely to result in a difference in behavior drinking-wise, but I've found SE's to be responsive to small adjustments.

Perhaps also consider breaking your doses up to 6 times a day, instead of 4 - this will give you a more even spread, especially regarding any SE's, and helps slightly with the stoned feeling, aka forgetfulness, absentmindedness, etc. It's definitely more of a PITA, but I've found it to help.

If I was forced to go to AA, or AA-based programmes, I don't know how I would react. Your outrage is understandable. Maybe just go and have a quiet laugh at the whole thing. Or spend your time telling them about baclofen? All just a waste of time, but maybe you can get through to one of them. Would be pleasantly ironic.

[Longshot]

Seroquel instead of Prosac

bleep;1059273 wrote:
If I was forced to go to AA, or AA-based programmes, I don't know how I would react. Your outrage is understandable. Maybe just go and have a quiet laugh at the whole thing. Or spend your time telling them about baclofen? All just a waste of time, but maybe you can get through to one of them. Would be pleasantly ironic.

Sorry man I'm just not strong enough to do that just yet. I've only gotten out of the habit of measuring my AF in days. That I've learnt from here, is really stupid thinking. One night's sleep just isn't enough to give me confidence to start kicking ass and taking names at a AA meeting. I'm still effectively exhausted, I got IM'd on facebook last night and it took me 5 minutes to realise that the person I was speaking to, wasn't my little brother.

Like I said, I don't think I'll be forced into doing anything. I won't go along to the drop in meeting without speaking to someone first. And I doubt they'll make me go to the meetings.

Even if I do go I'm not mentioning bachlofen, they seemed amazed that I was capable of googling the ingredients of Fluoxetine and discovering that it was Prozac, imagine if I say "I'm taking heroic dosages of a GABA enhancer that I found out about through a french physician's book, here's a a collection of papers supporting my position" I think their heads would explode!

I've told them I'm not taking the prozac, I was surprised honestly, at the number of people here who seemed enthusiastic about prozac. I just found the consultation period insanely fast. How can you decide in 15 minutes if someone is biologically depressed, unless you're Doctor House? As to being on Prozac, I find the list of side effects intimidating, and worry about being Prozac interfering with my ability to spot my switch.

I was depressed and stressed and so I got insomnia. Now I'm depressed and stressed because I have insomnia. You can't give me a drug to treat my depression and stress, and that gives me insomnia!

[Longshot]

Seroquel instead of Prosac

neva eva;1059253 wrote: Longshot,
I've followed your journey from the beginning, I think.
What you're sharing right now is vitally important. Imperative, even.
You are so right to be fucking OUTRAGED! It makes me want to fly over and do something really irrational, like stand outside that clinic with a sign saying, "Beware all ye enter here! They are doing the same treatment that hasn't worked for ANYONE with the disease of alcoholism!" Aaaaargh!
Like I said, I think in hindsight I overreacted, yes they did mention AA in their literature and I have no intention of wandering into open meetings without going into speaking with them first.

I've been to open meetings nearly a year ago. As I kept going to them my condition deteriorated rapidly.

My first meeting my psychologist told my wife she was simply amazed I turned up the 2nd time. The meeting was littered with the permanently damaged no hopers, including two people who had been banned from the hospital, and I swear to god, a man on remand for manslaughter for killing his wife. Apparently I stood up for myself and verbally bitched slapped this unruly asshole down.

By my fourth or fifth meeting my psychologist took me aside and pointed out
that I was clearly the drunkest person in the room, at 11 o'clock in the morning!

my calm and recovery are too valuable to me to risk exposing myself to open meetings.


I applaud you for your outrage. I applaud you and your wife for your relentlessness in seeking the cure in the face of such daunting circumstances. Please, please keep trying.

I am with you in spirit and you are in my thoughts. A robin-hood-esque hero and you'll come out ahead, with another rich fool robbed of his dignity because of your wit and wisdom.
Keep up the fight. We will triumph!
Karen/Ne

I'll go to one session with a one to one and take it from there.

[Murphyx]

Seroquel instead of Prosac

Hi Longshot

Longshot;1059314 wrote: When they were prescribing prozac they kept calling it Fluoxetine. The brand name, and when I called up and complained, the psychiatrist literally tried to bluff me, that it wasn't prozac. It's like writing a script for neurofen and saying "I didn't give you ibuprofen, I gave you neurofen" As if I can't read the fucking label. I think you've got it the wrong way round. Fluoxetine is the chemical name and Prozac is the brand name. I think it may also be sold under other names and if prescribed in combination with antipsychotics it could be called Symbyax.
Longshot;1059314 wrote:

I've told them I'm not taking the prozac, I was surprised honestly, at the number of people here who seemed enthusiastic about prozac. I just found the consultation period insanely fast. How can you decide in 15 minutes if someone is biologically depressed, unless you're Doctor House? As to being on Prozac, I find the list of side effects intimidating, and worry about being Prozac interfering with my ability to spot my switch.

I was depressed and stressed and so I got insomnia. Now I'm depressed and stressed because I have insomnia. You can't give me a drug to treat my depression and stress, and that gives me insomnia!

Which of the possible side effects were you concerned by? When I took it I had retarded ejaculation, which was annoying as hell and weird dreams. But neither of them mattered when compared to my constant thoughts of death or the rather worrying urge to crash my car. After nine months I slowly came off it and was fine again for several years.

There are other possible side effects but they're mostly not very common. There's no doubt about it, Prozac has saved an awful lot of lives.

[Longshot]

Seroquel instead of Prosac

Murphyx;1059358 wrote:
I think you've got it the wrong way round. Fluoxetine is the chemical name and Prozac is the brand name. I think it may also be sold under other names and if prescribed in combination with antipsychotics it could be called Symbyax.
Sorry yes, my neurofen to ibuprofen analogy stands if you reverse it. They called it ibuprofen and I understood it was Prozac.


Which of the possible side effects were you concerned by? When I took it I had retarded ejaculation, which was annoying as hell and weird dreams. But neither of them mattered when compared to my constant thoughts of death or the rather worrying urge to crash my car. After nine months I slowly came off it and was fine again for several years.

There are other possible side effects but they're mostly not very common. There's no doubt about it, Prozac has saved an awful lot of lives.

Insomnia is a big one 33% of people on suffer from insomnia. I think my depression and insomnia are inexorably linked. I'm depressed because I can't sleep. Giving me insomnia is only going to aggravate this issue.

And sorry yeah the retarded ejaculation is also a big deal. The things like the sexual dysfunction can last for months after I stop taking it.

My wife lost me to my addiction several years ago, it will stress me out, to finally be sober around her and not ahem finish the job.

I'd rather get my sleep patterns back to normal, find my switch without the impairment, and then see about prozac. I do think walking a guy off the street slapping him with Prozac after a 15 minute consultation is seriously OTT.

[beatle]

Seroquel instead of Prosac

Longshot, I agree with everything you have said, have suffered many of the outrages you have described, and really want to help you.

After I got sober, one of my biggest problems was insomnia, which made all of my mood swings and anxiety and everything so bad that all I could think about was drinking.

As you know, not sleeping exacerbates and magnifies all the horrible things that happen with drinking/not drinking.

From my experience, there is no way to stay sober if you can't sleep/don't sleep.

On the Holistic Healing forum, I wrote a long list of natural sleep aids, including side effects, and my own experience with each one. I can't find it now. I think it was at least a year ago, so you can search it that way. But using poster: beatle, and key word:sleep, I haven't been able to find it. I'm not sure how far back the forum databases go.

Anyway, off the top of my head (I know you already use some of them): valerian, tryptophan (or 5-HTP), lithum orotate (not to be confused with lithium -- check it on the Holistic Healing forum if you don't know all about it already), which is also a natural anti-depressant with studies indicating it is as effective, if not more effective, than SSRIs), SAMe, magnesium (can use homeopathic sublingual -- I found this to relax the muscles), taurine, hmm more, I'm sure.

As for meds, Dr L prescribes xanax (Alprazolam). It is a benzo, though, so it is addictive and I'm guessing you build a tolerance to it (not sure about this). Maybe you could alternate it with zolpidem (brand names Stilnocht, Ambien), so you don't build a tolerance to either? Or just use zolpidem (or whatever works) every 3 nights, so you don't build tolerance, and you at least get a good night's sleep every 3rd night.

Hope this helps.

[bleep]

Seroquel instead of Prosac

beatle, is taurine really a sleep aid? Isn't that the stuff they put in all the energy drinks?

[flasht75]

Seroquel instead of Prosac

Rozerem 8mg works very well along with 6mg melatonin. It is not a cheap drug but the company does have a patient assistance program (Takeda). I've had insomnia all of my life and I'd say it's one of the huge reasons I've had a hard time stopping the vino. I do take benadryl or xanax occasionally as well, but xanax is addictive so I definitely don't take it regularly.

[beatle]

Seroquel instead of Prosac

bleep;1059970 wrote: beatle, is taurine really a sleep aid? Isn't that the stuff they put in all the energy drinks?

From Wikipedia:

Despite being present in many energy foods, taurine has not been proven to be energy-giving.

Taurine is regularly used as an ingredient in energy drinks, with many containing 1000 mg per serving,[54] and some as much as 2000 mg.[55] A 2003 study by the European Food Safety Authority found no adverse effects for up to 1,000 mg of taurine per kilogram of body weight per day.[56]

A review published in 2008 found no documented reports of negative or positive health effects associated with the amount of taurine used in energy drinks, concluding that "The amounts of guarana, taurine, and ginseng found in popular energy drinks are far below the amounts expected to deliver either therapeutic benefits or adverse events".

From Taurine (a commercial site, but still...)

For Athletes:
Taurine is the next Super Amino-Acid. The research coming out on it is impressive. Taurine stimulates NO (Nitric Oxide) the hottest chemical recently identified in the body for all its magical effects (erectile function, hair loss, cardio health, muscle building). Taurine has possible cell volumizing and “insulin mimicking” effects (good for athletes/bodybuilders) and is the 2nd most abundant free amino acid in muscle tissue (good for anyone who wants to keep tone, maintain muscle mass). Some animal research shows that it may lower muscle breakdown and support lean muscle mass. 5-10 grams daily are recommended, before a workout and/or before bed time.

For Brain Performance & Sleep: Taurine has a neuroprotective effect and stabilizes electrical activity in neurons, and as such can help with anxiety. It also acts as a neuroinhibitor of dopamine and GABA and as such promotes relaxation. Taurine also is a major part of the pineal gland which is critical for sleep. The following study sums up how potent Taurine is:

Taurine: a conditionally essential amino acid in humans? An overview in health and disease. Lourenco R, Camilo ME.

"...taurine has a unique chemical structure that implies important physiological functions: bile acid conjugation and cholestasis prevention, antiarrhythmic/inotropic/chronotropic effects, central nervous system neuromodulation, retinal development and function, endocrine/metabolic effects and antioxidant/antiinflammatory properties..." Taurine is an inhibitory neurotransmitter that acts as modulator of the hypothalamic release of dopamine and GABA..."

I'd also like to mention that taurine is "prescribed" in the Seven Weeks to Sobriety protocol. Just can't find my copy now, and don't remember how much and when.

And, hey -- beneficial for brain performance, sleep and the liver. Can't really go wrong here

[Guest]

Seroquel instead of Prosac

Taurine has been recognised in sports science for quite a long time.