Little update and question about bac and xanax

[Chi]

Hi everyone... I came here about a year ago and started on bac. I didn't report much on my progress, but that was due to a number of reasons the main one being I never got to the place where I titrated up to a full on switch. I also had a year of many changes some that were very stressful and I wasn't ready to give up alcohol completely. To be honest I am not sure I want to give it up completely now.... I love the feeling that comes with a nice middle of the road euphoric alcohol buzz. It gives me relief from stress and makes my brain feel happy... BUT (why does there always have to be a "BUT"??) as we all WELL know chronic alcohol consumption to get that euphoric buzz is not healthy especially in the long run. Most of us aren't spring chickens and can no longer afford the "luxury" of being a chronic functioning alcoholic. My euphoric buzz doesn't come from the "recommended" two drink per day limit. Are they kidding, two drinks is like an appetizer for an alcoholic. Why can't the limit be six :upset::dang:

So here is where I want to update my use with bac. BEFORE bac my daily drinking for YEARS had become in the 12 pack range. My long time partner and husband is also an alcoholic and we've drank together for decades. We are both in our late 40's and knew we couldn't keep going like that forever, even though we didn't miss work or get DUI's or become violent, etc... it starts to come down to HEALTH and wanting a decent life span, and realizing the hangovers were harder and harder to tolerate and recognizing that the "party" was more and more like a stupor of watching TV, sleeping, doing nothing. So about a year ago we started bac. I went into it thinking YIPEE I can go alcohol free with ease and problem SOLVED. Of course I was wrong.

Here is what happened. Almost immediately bac reduced my cravings, and my stress. At 25mg three times a day my drinking became half of what it was, with ease, and often times less than half. That is where I have pretty much stayed the last year, and my husbands experience has been similar. Being the alcoholic that I am my thinking became "This is okay I am moderating on bac".... after a year I have to face who am I kidding...... a six pack a day -- even with my less days thrown in there --- is NOT moderate. There is still a price to pay for that buzz I love so much. The hangover I used to get after a 12 pack I eventually started to get after a six pack... or maybe I should say the hangover relief I found in my initial reduction felt so good it felt like not even having a hangover, when in reality there is still a hangover after a six pack too.

I'm now to the point of wanting to remove the six pack. Health needs to be a priority. In the last several weeks I've increased my bac by 10-15 mgs per day, and I'm feeling a reduction in craving which I define as being satisfied with less than six beers per night. Four and sometimes three is doing the trick. I'm also feeling some side effects. What's weird is I have somnolence during the day which is VERY bothersome, but at night I have insomnia!! This combo is really driving me crazy and I need some energy. I have too much I need to accomplish right now and the lack of energy is hurting me. If I could get some decent sleep at night I think I would be a lot better off. Why doesn't the somnolence happen at night?! Strange.

Anyway I have xanax on hand at all times for anxiety/panic attacks. I only use it a couple times a month because I am very afraid of becoming physically addicted. By the way bac has reduced my need for this by at least half, and I have a history of some pretty bad attacks. Years ago I took xanax daily after the death of my father for about a year, and the withdrawl when I tapered back off was really horrible and I do not want to go through that again. However, I recently found if I take my last bac dose and a .5 xanax at bedtime I can actually sleep for about 6 hours which felt wonderful!

My question is- does taking bac keep one from getting physically addicted to xanax? I thought I read something like that here, but I can't remember what thread. If not, what can I do to sleep because I can't/won't do xanax if it means physical addiction.... but the lack of sleep is hurting me.

Thanks in advance for any advice which would be most welcome.

[Lo0p]

Little update and question about bac and xanax

Dr. Levin recently prescribed me xanax for those two reasons (anxiety and insomnia). He told me I am immune to becoming addicted to it, which I know is true because there are a whole host of other things that I am not addicted to anymore but should be (namely oxycodone, but basically anything). I believe he was talking about psychological addiction, not physical dependence.

It's been a freaking lifesaver for me. He's absolutely right when he says it works very well with high dose baclofen. I believe it is the go to med for him and his patients with either complaint.

If I would hazard a guess I would say of course you are going to become physically dependent on it. But I would also say that when the time comes you should have much less of a problem titrating down and off of it than before. Just a guess.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Little update and question about bac and xanax

hmmm.
I have had the same debate with myself, Chi.
I also had some xanax. My decision to get rid of it was based on the fact that we know that it's highly addictive. It takes increasing amounts in order to continue to work effectively, to which I think Lo0p will attest.
We/they don't actually know that bac makes us immune to addiction if we continue to use addictive substances. There certainly aren't any studies on it, even on rodents, much less our closer relatives in the tree.

I think your experience with bac and moderating speaks to that. While indifference from bac is dose dependent, of course, there is nothing that suggests to me that indifference can be maintained on any level of bac if one continues to use the substance in question.

But I wouldn't know, since that's never been my goal.
And I won't even take ibuprofen unless it's absolutely unavoidably necessary.

[Chi]

Little update and question about bac and xanax

Thanks for the replies Loop and Ne.

One thing I love about this place is the sharing of info even though we are all different and walking different paths along alcohol highway.

I can say a little more about xanax as I've used it off and on for almost 15 years. It IS highly effective for acute anxiety and a panic attack in progress. I do not think it is effective for chronic anxiety or to prevent panic attacks as the half life and fast physical dependence due to the way it affects GABA make that impossible. When one starts to become physically dependent anxiety and the incidence of panic attacks will increase when the body goes into withdrawal. This happens rather quickly, thus making it a poor choice for long term treatment. BTW Bac did not keep me from craving xanax, as I have never craved it. Bac has helped my anxiety which led to less acute episodes. I think the reduction in alcohol has likely been the primary reason for less panic attacks, but unfortunately I still get them on occasion even when alcohol is not a factor. For anyone not familiar with panic attacks, they can/do happen when no stress is involved.

I was hoping there might be some way bac works on GABA to prevent *physical* addiction so I could safely use it for sleep on a regular basis, but it's looking like that was wishful thinking. Loop you are probably right that I wouldn't likely have the same issues tapering down from xanax as I did years ago, but I still don't want to go down that road. It was horrible. I felt like shit for a good month. I need to find a way to get sleep on a nightly basis. I'm surprised that sheer exhaustion doesn't seem to be doing it. Sigh. Maybe this insomnia will continue until I resolve some personal issues that seem to make my brain go into full thinking mode at 1:00 AM till morning.

[Lo0p]

Little update and question about bac and xanax

Can you become physically dependent on it using it once a day?

Beatle highly recommends Ambien (zolpidem). I've been meaning to ask her if Dr. L said there were any contradictions with baclofen, even though I'm sure she has already stated so one way or the other somewhere.

She'll chime in here soon.

FTR, I haven't noticed any reduction in effectiveness yet. But it's early days for me (20 or so). I've cut my dose by 25% the last couple of days with no ill effects so far. And I've never craved it. I've taken too much by accident and not liked it (too sleepy).

But also ftr, I *used* to have a highly addictive personality and never was attracted to benzos before, even after trying to use them recreationally.

[Lo0p]

Little update and question about bac and xanax

There are "two schools of thought" when it comes to tolerance and rebound anxiety to xanax (alprazolam). One is that it does occur and the other is that it does not. Lemme see if I can find the link.

edit: Just what I read on the wiki page: Alprazolam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Lo0p]

Little update and question about bac and xanax

This quote from the wiki page seems to fit what is happening to me: "In 1992, Romach and colleagues reported that dose escalation is not a characteristic of long-term alprazolam users, and that the majority of long-term alprazolam users change their initial pattern of regular use to one of symptom control only when required."

I was taking at regular intervals along with my baclofen, it seemed necessary at the time (when I first started, it's a long story that I haven't even alluded to here on MWO). My standard dose was .5mg up to 4x a day. Now I'm taking it more when symptoms arise and when I do, I'll take .25mg and then another .25 in an hour if it doesn't quite work.

[UNNECESSARY TANGENT]

I've got a program on my Android phone called KeepTrack (zagala.com) which helps me immensely to...keep track:H...of my baclofen and xanax doses. I just put in my dose when I take it and it compiles it into a list with date and timestamps and amounts. I can shoot it to my computer and look at it on excel easily. Hell, I could even email it to my doctor if he wanted to look at it.

I don't, but you can even set reminders to remind you when it is time to take it. If you have an Android you can download it for free by scanning this barcode with your phone:

[/UNNECESSARY TANGENT]

More than anything else, it keeps me honest. I thought that was going to be important when I started taking xanax being that it is highly addictive. But now that I have a record of every single dose that I've taken (and it actually matches up to the # of pills left in the bottle:shocked and an honest assessment of my feelings toward it, I can confidently say that it is not a problem...for me.

[Chi]

Little update and question about bac and xanax

Loop I took xanax daily for about 5-6 months... it's been a lot of years so my memory isn't great, but I think my dose was about 1.5 mg per day (3 X .5). That was what my doctor recommended. It worked great, but I never craved it nor did I get what I would call a pleasant buzz. Booze has always been my preferred buzz. It gave me some relief from the massive anxiety over my dad's illness. I didn't know at the time how physically addictive it was, and one day I ran out and didn't think to get it filled right away. The next day I was eating lunch at Wendys and wasn't feeling well. Within two hours I was at the emergency room thinking I was having a stroke! I felt so weird and like I was going to pass out. Weak, shaky... it scared the crap out of me. The ER doctor figured out pretty quickly what was happening and gave me a dose of xanax and within 15 minutes I felt "normal" again. I got pretty pissed at my primary doctor for not warning me, and I started to taper down. The taper was very hard too. Finally at the end, when I was breaking .25 pills in half per day and STILL feeling like crap he switched me to klonopin, a benzo which has a longer half life and I finished my taper with that. I also educated myself on xanax and I hate to tell you this but I heard lots of stories of people getting physically addicted after only a couple months and even less. Ideally xanax is for short term use.

Xanax is such a double edge sword. It works GREAT and better than any other benzo for anxiety, imo, but it does such a number on depleting GABA you have to be really careful using it if you don't want problems. I still use it when I absolutely need it, but I am very mindful not to use it daily. I'd love two or three nights in a row of sleep but I'm THAT paranoid. Just be careful. One thing you could do is to go without for a day or two. Trust me, if you are in a danger zone as far as physical addiction you will know right away.

As far as Ambien, does anyone know if that is addictive?

[Lo0p]

Little update and question about bac and xanax

And I sleep like a baby now. Still get up 4 times a night and go do things (water, bathroom, cigarette), but I can fall right back asleep. It seems to work effectively even while decreasing my dose (during the day).

That alone...for me...there aren't words.

[Lo0p]

Little update and question about bac and xanax

I might try that...:thanks: Chi

[Chi]

Little update and question about bac and xanax

Loop just read your last post, and realized that YES you are very careful and thought out, so I'm sure you will manage your meds in the way that is right for you.

I won't hesitate to use xanax when I need it. I just can't use it daily for sleep or I'll get rebound anxiety and an increase in panic attacks, which I don't want.

I just want to sleep better :upset:

[Bruunhilde]

Little update and question about bac and xanax

Thought I'd share my three years of xanax experience with you Chi.

I have it for panic/anxiety attacks. I found it helped me sleep back when I was trying to titrate up on bac, & other times when stress kept me from sleeping. I became quickly dependent on it physically and psychologically. I would go off it periodically to "reset" my tolerance, which meant three nights or so of no sleep. Nothing for an experienced bac-ster, but still, not pleasant.

I find my best use for xanax is at the witching hour. Since I can't take high dose bac, I take xanax if I'm white knuckling the "I need to go buy a bottle NOW NOW NOW" thing. It helps me calm down and keep distracting myself from going. I keep saying, wait fifteen minutes and reassess. And reaassess. By the time the xanax kicks in, I'm okay, and I think xanax over alcohol is better, I don't use it for this purpose every night but only when I'm feeling like I'm about to drink a bottle or more of wine uncontrollably. Xanax is a stop-gap for me, and I'm not on any other pills (except hypertension and nutritional supplements).

This is my story only, I'm not recommending it nor going to defend it.

[beatle]

Little update and question about bac and xanax

It's been ages (remember, beatle years = dog years) since I researched all this stuff, and experimented with it on myself.

From what I understand, xanax, like lorazepam (ativan), is good for anxiety and panic attacks and for detoxing. They are both faster-acting and quicker-clearing benzos than others (such as diazepam (valium).

I have interpreted benzos as all more or less the same thing, except some act faster and clear out faster, while others take longer to act and hang around longer. But I did a quick wiki look, and realized this is not quite true -- but I will not let the facts get in the way of the hypothesis.

From what I remember (which is not saying much) and from my own experience (which is saying much), zolpidem (ambien, stillnoct) act on the brain differently than benzos. -- more related to GABA? Don't know. I think both have high addiction potential, and high tolerance-building potential.

Meanwhile, I also have extensive knowledge (both research and experience-based) about sleeping/calming supps that are not drugs. (Melatonin, Lith Oro, 5 HTP,etc.)

So my back-assed approach leads me to this strategy:

Alternate. Alternate. Alternate.

(always keeping the natural stuff going.)

At this late stage in the game, I take the natural supps every night and zolpidem when desperate.

[Lo0p]

Little update and question about bac and xanax

WAIT!!! STOP!!!

Beatle, did you ask Dr. L about any interactions between zolpidem and baclofen?

[beatle]

Little update and question about bac and xanax

yes. he prefers xanax.