Meds Forum MWO

[Otter]

Meds Forum MWO

Mario,

We will just have to agree to disagree.

[Seethepony]

Meds Forum MWO

Blimey! I never knew we had two Eton boys on the forum!

[TracyA]

Meds Forum MWO

Otter, stop preaching to people! What's wrong with you? And your rudeness to Mario is completely uncalled for - he is a very, very nice guy - and certainly no Big Book thumper.

Ok, Tip, sorry. I think I see what you were talking about now.

[LadyLush]

Meds Forum MWO

My 2 Cents,

Redhead77 said it all; I could not have said it better.

Lady

[missyabby1]

Meds Forum MWO

Otter,

You are way out of line being rude to Mario. He is one who is always on the ball to welcome newbies to this forum and does so with compassion and caring......which is what this forum is to supposed to be about......Right?

I take Campral. Yes Campral!!! A drug which contains a chemical proven, by scientific research and controlled trials, to be efficacious in reducing cravings for alcohol. It helps to repair the brain damaged by long term alcohol abuse. Sound familiar Otter? It works for me. (Plus I don't get side effects which remind me of being in a medieval torture chamber!)

My sister is on the Board of the Ethics Committee of a major hospital who screen protocols for new medical procedures and pharmaceutical trials. She would love to see the results of the "many" trials purporting that high dose baclofen is efficacious in the same way. I am sure, eventually, that Baclofen will indeed reach that status but hey anecdotal stories are not proof.

I think I understand your frustration Otter, but hey mate you really need to temper your enthusiasm with some compassion for the poor newbies who enter this forum seeking help to "decide for themselves" the best way to go. To question their intelligence is just not on.

Tip, I wholly agree with your views and thank you for starting this thread.

Otter, please don't tar and feather me again, I am still spitting feathers out from your last attempt :H

Mario, thank you for being there for me when I first entered this forum with trepidation and hope :l

If I could do those thingies that you all have at the bottom of your posts it would be

"One for all and all for one"

Love to everyone.

[ignominious]

Meds Forum MWO

I would also have prefered to have found a non pharmaceutical way out and I believe that every one should at least attempt a drug free recovery program. Having said that lets call a spade a spade. AA doesn't work for most people and baclofen does.

Rudeness is not the prefered method of communication but personally I would rather have been shouted at than have spent another 5 years wallowing in the misery of alcoholism. Again, unfortunately, I personaly would probably have spent another 5 years in alcoholic hell rather than give in and listen to that rude bastard.

[Murphyx]

Meds Forum MWO

Baclofen works for the vast majority of people who use it. AA works for a tiny minority.

I think it's important that people know this. Simple as that.

[Otter]

Meds Forum MWO

Okay....Sorrreeee.

I have deleted the offending posts. Frustration does not even come close to how I feel right now.

Having said that I still stand by what I said. I don't think it is necessary as part of treatment for an illness to let it progress until you reach rock bottom. I have heard so many people use that worn out expression "You just have to let them hit rock bottom".

Well you don't. And hitting rock bottom for two million people a year means death.

How can you give "equal" respect to people who say that an approach which ignores the physiological basis of an illness should be put on the same footing as Baclofen. The debate over AA is whether it actually works for anyone at all. The debate over Baclofen is whether it is a "treatment" or a "cure" and whether it works for 80% of people who use it or 84%.

Read Joan Larson's book and take on board what she says that even this small percentage of people who who do "succeed" with AA lead half lives thereafter as "dry drunks" struggling with the illness and the underlying physiological disturbances which remain untreated.

So, what do you call someone who thinks you can fix an imbalance in the brain by talking about what you did since the last AA meeting? Misguided?

What happened to the spirit of Ralph Nader? Why would anyone allow their fellow planet dwellers to be exposed to a condition which is often fatal and not shout from the roof tops that there is a cure and do everything they possibly could to help?

That is what I cannot "get" my head around. It is precisely the people who are in control of hospitals and the like who need to think outside the box and actually look at the medications available for alcoholism instead of waiting for the pharmaceutical industry to perform double blind tests which we all know is never going to happen. The present guidelines on use of Baclofen have nothing to do with the use of Baclofen for alcoholism so someone sitting on an Ethics Committee of a hospital should look at the risks and benefits of Baclofen and its availability off-licence to patients already. What kind of person would not act if they saw that this drug works miracles where nothing has worked before. There are two scientific studies in Italy and Minnesota showing the efficacy of Baclofen in a hospital setting for withdrawal from alcohol. Still not good enough!?? Anecdotes are not going to help. I have to disagree. Anecdotes will eventually make this treatment so widespread that doctors and hospitals have to listen and do something and people dragging their feet and sitting back taking salaries for not exercising their minds to help sick people really should have a conversation with themselves.

I am way out of line?

Nader was out of line. Gee, a lot of people liked their Pintos so don't offend the Ford Motor Company. A handful of people died and it became a crusade. "Unsafe at any speed". It gave rise to a national consumer movement which swept through industry and changed the way we looked at consumer products. Alcoholism kills millions and AA as a mainstream treatment recommended by doctors and psychologists around the world is a treatment which is also unsafe at any speed. Patients are consumers of medical advice and treatments and if the main treatment program used is failing then there should be an immediate recall and a change to a treatment program that does work. The deaths caused by Pinto crashes were "anecdotal" evidence of a defect. In fact, the Ford Motor Company carried out tests of the Pinto before releasing it on an unsuspecting public and the tests showed that it had a defect. So much for Big Brother industry getting it right with trials. What hope does anyone stand if you leave Baclofen treatment in the hands of an industry, medical and pharmaceutical, who have no financial interest in seeing it succeed?

I think there is a real risk that we here become so wrapped up in this forum that we forget about the real world where people who have wrecked their lives with alcoholism and are washed up on the rocks somewhere are being left to suffer and die while we debate and get upset over "etiquette" and whether some guy in some little village has written a book and has helped a few people get off booze. There is more to life than the rules of conduct on MWO forum.

It may be politically correct to be polite on these forums but this is life or death stuff to a lot of people and this mamby pamby approach to things is not getting very far in the public domain. Every article that comes out in the press has to cite Garbutt out of deference to the "established" cant about there not being a "cure" for alcoholism as per the AA dogma. "We mustn't offend anyone, even if people have to die for lack of treatment".

Life or death. I know which I prefer.

Otter

[startingover]

Meds Forum MWO

Murphyx;1074885 wrote: Baclofen works for the vast majority of people who use it. AA works for a tiny minority.

I think it's important that people know this. Simple as that.

But people should be allowed to make up their own mind without being put off by people disregarding their opinions or being made to feel less worthy of their choice.

Personally I didnt go either route, however they both interest me but I still wouldnt want to be bamboozled by someone dictating to me which method I should choose

[mollyka]

Meds Forum MWO

I agree with you Starty 100% Like you I didn't go either route, but if someone tries to force feed me a 'solution' my automatic response is to clam up and reject it - very adolescent type behaviour maybe, but I actually think the addicts brain is very similar to a semi-formed adults brain (teenager) maybe all the years we lost to the addiction. Just my tuppence worth. I'm not passing judgement on bac or AA cos as I say I haven't tried either, only commenting on attitudes.
Molly

[Otter]

Meds Forum MWO

startingover;1074913 wrote: But people should be allowed to make up their own mind without being put off by people disregarding their opinions or being made to feel less worthy of their choice.

Personally I didnt go either route, however they both interest me but I still wouldnt want to be bamboozled by someone dictating to me which method I should choose

People are being allowed to do whatever they want. No one forces anyone to take Baclofen. What is happening is that people are seeing the results of Baclofen, doing the research into why it works and trying to help others get well.

People also have a right to free speech and that is what ultimately allows good ideas to flourish and will allow Baclofen treatment to save lives where other methods fail. Take a look at the old posts from two years ago and try to explain why Baclofen has taken over this med thread and no other drug has anywhere near the reports of success.

[startingover]

Meds Forum MWO

Im not questioning the efficacy of Bac Otter. I am just saying that in order to get that message out, other methods dont need to be rubbished.

[bleep]

Meds Forum MWO

startingover;1074913 wrote: But people should be allowed to make up their own mind without being put off by people disregarding their opinions or being made to feel less worthy of their choice.

...

Whilst I agree with this, I think the problem would be greatly reduced if judges started saying "You are sentenced to AA, or baclofen. Your choice." Currently AA receives all the attention, and if the past 70 odd years have shown anything, they have shown that in the vast majority of cases, AA does not work, and in fact makes things worse.

To find out about baclofen I had to research in the dark corners of the internet. MWO is actually a breath of fresh air, the rest had to be pieced together from hard-to-find research papers scattered all over the internet. AA occupies all the search engines, and that is just plain wrong, in my opinion.

Whilst I may not fully agree with the tone of Otter's posts in this thread, I agree 100% with what he is saying. Otter, you are my new hero.

[Otter]

Meds Forum MWO

mollyka;1074924 wrote: I agree with you Starty 100% Like you I didn't go either route, but if someone tries to force feed me a 'solution' my automatic response is to clam up and reject it - very adolescent type behaviour maybe, but I actually think the addicts brain is very similar to a semi-formed adults brain (teenager) maybe all the years we lost to the addiction. Just my tuppence worth. I'm not passing judgement on bac or AA cos as I say I haven't tried either, only commenting on attitudes.
Molly

I have to agree with that. It is a very astute observation. I don't think it is limited to the alcoholic brain. The theory behind Baclofen is that the addictive craving comes from an imbalance in the amygdala which also causes a host of other problems. I take Baclofen for anxiety and I have, believe it or not, become much more relaxed about accepting other people's ideas than before. And that attitude changes from day to day depending on whether I have taken a dose and how much.

When I first heard about Baclofen I was dismissive of it. I was a devotee of Seven Weeks to Sobriety and felt Baclofen had to be nonsense. Multifactorial and all that.

I read the book and have participated in this forum ever since. I have seen and felt what Baclofen does and I now know it works.

I recognize that my own reticence about Baclofen initially was part of my own "imbalance" as is my anger, frustration, rudeness, as well as my dry humour which not everyone gets.

So, yes, do whatever floats your boat and don't let me stop you. I really mean it. Anyway out of this f.....g illness.

[startingover]

Meds Forum MWO

bleep;1074929 wrote: Whilst I agree with this, I think the problem would be greatly reduced if judges started saying "You are sentenced to AA, or baclofen. Your choice." Currently AA receives all the attention, and if the past 70 odd years have shown anything, they have shown that in the vast majority of cases, AA does not work, and in fact makes things worse.

To find out about baclofen I had to research in the dark corners of the internet. MWO is actually a breath of fresh air, the rest had to be pieced together from hard-to-find research papers scattered all over the internet. AA occupies all the search engines, and that is just plain wrong, in my opinion.

Again, that is very true Bleep. Over here (uk) very few practitioners who treat alcoholism have even heard of Bac or seem to be willing to research it.
My point was really that on this forum, its a shame to see people being slagged off for their choices thats all.