Meds Forum MWO

[Booktree]

Meds Forum MWO

Beatle, thank you for posting this. I've been meaning to post something here too but haven't found the time until now. I also very much related to Otter's first post and the others you mentioned, and I felt that some of what Otter was saying got totally misconstrued and his main points went ignored.

It is a sad fact that AA dogma is not now and likely never will be open to the use of medications for treatment of alcoholism. This doesn't negate the fact that it is supportive (in a social sense) for those trying to quit -- but it's also important to keep in mind that (for some) it can actually make the disease worse. In terms of instilling some very shaming and self-defeating beliefs in a person's mind.

The way I see it is that no one is "forcing" one method or the other down anyone's throat. But it's like treatment for any other disease. It is not helpful or medically responsible to elevate one treatment over another if that one predominant treatment has a 95% failure rate.

[TracyA]

Meds Forum MWO

beatle;1075094 wrote: But I don't think AA was intended to be that way, at all. (?)

I don't think so either, at least not in the beginning, before it grew into this court-sponsored monster, replete with it's own federally funded agencies, originally NCADA and now NIDA. I think it has a niche, but it's a very small one, and if limited to the people who actually want to be into AA, AA would be better off too.

[Isolde]

Meds Forum MWO

Ukblonde;1074977 wrote:
I actually became frightened to say anything here especially when I know that posters in this section actively prune threads to remove anything which could be seen as putting Baclofen in a negative light. When I was having a bad time I wanted to know about the bad times, the horrendous side effects. That would have helped me more than a load of blogs about how great it all is, how horny the guys felt, and how funny it was to forget things, or likening it to recreational drugs. I wanted to hear the nitty gritty, and without having to dig through pages and pages of random posts about someone's life.

As far as the post pruning goes, only the O.P. can edit their posts. The majority of editing I've seen done is when someone feels they've either overstepped their bounds or been rude or insensitive, etc.
I know that you had a rough time on bac at one point, and I'm sorry if you felt that you didn't get the support that you needed. But if you wanted to read about horrendous side effects, there's certainly no shortage of reading material here! But because this is a public forum with a lot of people posting, there's tons of other information as well - people's personal threads, scientific data, answers to specific questions, and fun stuff too. I think that's what makes the forum so great - it's all there. You might have to do a lot of reading to find exactly what you're looking for, but every forum is like that, including all of the other sections of MWO.

In any forum, you just have to read what ya want and ignore the rest.

[Otter]

Meds Forum MWO

I know when I have overstepped the mark and said things I should not have. This is a therapeutic forum and it does not help when someone goes off on a rant of their own, including me. I don't find this alcohol journey fun and I have lived with it for years now. Some of you know what we are going through right now and I apologize for letting my anger and frustration spill over.

I don't know Mario. From what everyone says he is good person. That does not deflect from the fact that there has been a major shift in alcohol treatment and it needs to be supported for the sake of everyone.

I don't think I am just engaging in rhetoric when I compare AA with the Ford Pinto. There is a medicine which can cure people. Why is it not being used? If a car company can be pilloried for allowing people to die then why is the medical profession, government and pharmaceutical industry allowed, by all of us and everyone who knows Baclofen works, to hide behind the idea that an unnecessary double blind test is necessary before Baclofen can be used to save people's lives. It is extremely negligent to the point of verging on collective/corporate manslaughter. So, yes I am sorry if I offended people on this forum or the General Forum. I am not upset at them for being alcoholics and clinging to any treatment which gives them some respite from this illness. But sometimes I feel as though people need shaking up a bit and this needs to be pushed harder so I get angry and frustrated.

There is a new Baclofen forum which is a good thing because maybe, over time, it will encourage people like me to give vent to these ideas somewhere where it is not objected to because it offends people who have a different view. I think I am well past the stage of actually wanting, myself, to engage in a dispute with anyone over Baclofen v. AA v. Campral v. Topamax. This is a forum for support and it does not necessarily lend itself to people like me coming on it and stirring things up and upsetting people and for that I am truly sorry.

Again, sorry to Mario. I have nothing against anyone who seeks help wherever they find it. I am not here to hurt anyone but to find help just like everyone else.

Best wishes.

[mario]

Meds Forum MWO

Apology accepted otter.







I was pm-ed by a caring member and asked to delete my posts, in which case i have.

[Otter]

Meds Forum MWO

Thanks

[Guest]

Meds Forum MWO

Isolde

Anyone can edit ANY of their posts at anytime within anyones threads and they do. You can do it with your posts on this thread just as Otter has done.

This whole thread isn't about AA v baclofen, it's about the fact that many completely dis the idea of anyone using AA often poking fun or disdain at it. I don't think any method should be discounted, and people shouldn't be slated for trying these different methods. It's not about which method is the most successful, or valid, or even what works - it's about people making their own choices, and being supportive towards them instead of dismissive. All that's happening is that this thread has taken up the AA v Baclofen argument now, which is missing the OPs point entirely. This forum is about finding your particular way out, not telling people "This is the only way and if you consider anything else you are stupid".

Regards finding the information, then yes it is there but it's hidden in piles and piles of chit-chat, personal blogging etc which makes it difficult to sieve out the useful stuff. Even then it's surrounded by complicated daily/weekly dosing schedules. Making it very difficult for people to access, especially if they are feeling pretty down or under the influence - which many people using this forum are bound to be quite a lot of the time.

[one2many]

Meds Forum MWO

My dad gave up booze with the support of AA, he was a chronic alcoholic, he is now 16 years sober and still goes to meetings every week. AA worked for him.

My good friend here Tipp is sober with the help of Baclofen and is doing fantastic. Baclofen worked for him.

I stopped drinking with the forum MWO. MWO worked for me.

A neighbour of mine went to rehab here in Dublin and is now sober 4 and a half years.Rehab worked for her.

NO way is any better than another, same as NO person is the same as any other.

Remember, this forum is called MY Way Out.........and whatever WAY you choose is a very personal thing...no way is wrong or silly or deluded....whatever works..right??

The way I see it is, we are all in this together, each and every one of us have a problem with alcohol and we want and need to get our lives back...lets just get back to doing that.


We all live with the objective of being happy; our lives are all different and yet the same. Anne Frank.

[JohnR]

Meds Forum MWO

O2M I completely agree with you. UKB I also agree with you.
I took a 2 year break from MWO after I was ridiculed for speaking negatively about Nal and TSM when it did not work for me. A few of us considered ourselves pioneers, (much like some of the bac posters do now). I was told not to post anything negative because it rocked the boat and could discourage lurkers from wanting to try it. I felt this was dishonest if not misleading. In clinical trials, if a participant is not experiencing the desired results, are they then dropped from the trial? Long story short, it left me with a bad taste and I quit everything (except AL of course).

I am trying bac now and just like with anything, I am cautiously optimistic. On the positive side, it has been effective with respect to AL consumption. On the negative side, there are some horrible SE's. Maybe we start a thread "Complain About Bac SE's Here" or "The Downside of Bac" (if it does not already exist). Some might think it is being negative but I say it is more important to be realistic.

[bleep]

Meds Forum MWO

John, that thread exists, in many forms! SE's are a universal and common complaint! And I agree, the bad and the good, but the bad is more important. I'm actually enjoying this thread though, so I don't want to derail it...

[konbrot]

Meds Forum MWO

I do not want to ruffle feathers, or fur for that matter. I think Baclofen is the surest way out of alcohol dependency but it is not for everyone and there are alternatives.
I started taking Bac about a year ago and have been for stopped three weeks. The reason I stopped is that I do not think I need to take it anymore. I found MWO just over a year ago, following another 24/7 bender. This one lasted 10 days. At the time of my finding MWO, the Sinclair Method seemed to be generating almost as much discussion as Bac. I had heard of Bac. I had heard of Naltrexone. But I had not heard of the Sinclair Method. Seeing positves in both protocols, I decided to do both. Other people were doing so and that was good enough for me.
Although I had ordered the Nal, my real focus was on the Bac, as this seemed to offer the most sure, quickest route to freedom from booze dependency. I was using the Nal but sort of resented that I was, and I did not like the fact that it blocked off the endorphins for around 30hours. It did however help in getting me off seven day a week boozing, because I started back the gym and I wanted the endorphins ready for action.
At around 120mg of Bac a day, my boozing became confined to ten pints on a Sunday afternoon, following a bike ride. I also stopped taking the Nal. Didn't want it. At 200mg I stopped boozing and declared that I had hit the switch, though I must admit, if I had it wasn't a revelation.
After two weeks, I cut down to gradually 120mg per day. After three more weeks, I had a weekend drink and things started to slip. Soon I was drinking a half bottle of vodka every night. However upping the Bac prevented me going into total binge mode and it helped me cut the booze down. At this point I started taking Naltrexone again, an hour before a drink. And I have gradually lost interest in boozing and in taking Baclofen.
At first I thought it was just the whole thing of having to take a pill and wait an hour to drink. This often made me think to myself, 'Oh I really can't be arsed if I gotta do that'. But at weekend I would have a few. When I was off work for a couple of weeks, I nipped out for a few in the afternoon. But it got more and more of a struggle to get them down. I got to taking the pill and thinking, 'Shit, why did I do that, now I've got to drink'. Two pints and I was going home.
So it seems the Sinclair Method is my route out of hell. In a lot of ways it is easier to follow than taking Bac, because it has one simple rule. There is no experimenting with dosage amounts or times of dose. or of course dealing with Ses. However its drawback is, it does not seem to have the success rate of a Baclofen protocol. Also it can take months to find out it really is not working, which must be hard to take.
Maybe it worked for me because I am an impulsive, shiftless pleasure seeker, who does not need to drink to self-medicate away an underlying anxiety condition. I can only sympathise with people who do use alcohol for this but, for me, once the pleasure is taken away, so is the point. If anything the Bac actually made me more anxious. My friend and work colleague mentioned this to me and, at the time, I wouldn't have it. Now I am not so sure.
As it is, I have not drunk for a month and do not feel deprived of booze at all. I am reluctant to declare victory because of too many false dawns, however I do feel better.
It is not for me to advise anyone what to do. I can only relate my own experiences. However I do think the Sinclair Method is worthy of consideration if, for whatever reason, the Bac is not getting you to a better place.
I do not think AA is for me. I have criticized it but not on this forum. But I did meet a bloke I know, I had not seen for several years. Last seen he was a boozing way too much and things were generally out of control. Last heard, he had been in AA three months and was doing well. Then I met him again, several years down the line, a changed man, still actively involved in AA. Who am I too criticize. Though he did say that problem drinkers, who fall foul of the law, should be sent to AA by the courts. I did not like the sound of that.

[Isolde]

Meds Forum MWO

Ukblonde;1075141 wrote: Isolde

Anyone can edit ANY of their posts at anytime within anyones threads and they do. You can do it with your posts on this thread just as Otter has done.
Sorry, I really wasn't clear in my explanation. I didn't mean O.P. as in the person that started the thread (though that's what it does mean). I meant that we can only edit our own posts, not like someone else can go back and remove stuff that they don't like from others'.

Ukblonde;1075141 wrote:
Regards finding the information, then yes it is there but it's hidden in piles and piles of chit-chat, personal blogging etc which makes it difficult to sieve out the useful stuff. Even then it's surrounded by complicated daily/weekly dosing schedules. Making it very difficult for people to access, especially if they are feeling pretty down or under the influence - which many people using this forum are bound to be quite a lot of the time.

Unfortunately, that is just the nature of forums! We do the best that we can, with making compilation threads about different aspects of baclofen (from titration schedules to side effects to success stories etc.) as well as daily check in threads and a spot for newbies (thanks Karen!), but without the ability to sticky anything in here, it IS hard to keep them where everyone can easily find them and access what they need quickly. At least the information is there though, even if sometimes it is a bit onerous to dig through it to find what you're looking for.

[beatle]

Meds Forum MWO

bleep;1075160 wrote: John, that thread exists, in many forms! SE's are a universal and common complaint! And I agree, the bad and the good, but the bad is more important. I'm actually enjoying this thread though, so I don't want to derail it...

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...fen-35375.html

[JohnR]

Meds Forum MWO

:thanks: beatle. I thought it must exist.
SE's are frustrating and it feels better to complain about them, at least for me.

[beatle]

Meds Forum MWO

You are welcome John. It should be bumped continuously, as is the case for so many other consolidated information threads.

Note: stickies are not enough (imo). There are at least 10, maybe more, essential threads with consolidated information vital to a first time investigator into baclofen. And vital for oldies like me, who need to refer back to them constantly... and keep having to find them and bump them for newcomers. It wouldn't make sense to have 10 stickies about bac at the top of a forum that barely mentions baclofen in its title.

Clearly, there should be a separate baclofen forum with the consolidated information threads, including SEs, and Dr. A's messages, the SEs, the titration schedule, the more recent titrations thread (consolidating the experience and advice of fellow MWOers who have reached the switch, https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ead-48260.html), and all the other essential information assembled at the top. And while we are are at it, there should be a separate bac blogger category within the bac forum.

This would make things far easier for oldies and newbies alike. (And for anyone doing research now and in the days and years that follow these threads.)

Anyone up for the job?

And now, back to the thread...