Side effects of AA

[gyco]

Side effects of AA

i do wish all you folks o nthis forum well and i liked your last post tracey

[gyco]

Side effects of AA

later

[Otter]

Side effects of AA

gratitude;1080155 wrote: otter,
I am late to the party(again). first post on this thread. but I did go back to the beginning to read the whole thing. great thread.
gotta say, you are a breathe of fresh air in this very divisive debate. and I love a good debate. you seem to have a very balanced point of view.
I was taught to keep this qoute in mind in a debate. "the test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function".
that doesn't mean you can't use logical fallacies in your argument. sometimes you can sway your audience one way or another using these fallacies. the problem is how educated your opponent or audience is.
the debate for/against on this thread is littered with emotional argumentation and irrationality. dogma really. on both sides.
science is about open inquiry and repeatable results. going off on a tangent to support a premise is itself a logical fallacy and is used by both sides of the debate.
anyway, I've forgotten the premise already ( or was there one?). I'm off to reread this thread in its entirety and perhaps I can convince myself one way or the other.
p.s. if we all used perfect logic the world be a pretty dry and boring and your thread wouln't be as entertaining. grat

Thanks for that. I was about to go to bed in a really lousy mood but you cheered me up. Baclofen is a struggle. Ameisen said it stops drinking "effortlessly". What he meant is that it does not require an exercise of "will power" but it is anything but "effortless". It has been an odyssey through the darker parts of hell for us. My wife initially found out about Baclofen on morning television in the UK. I read the book and told her how it worked. She got a prescription for spasticity and found that 10 mg knocked her out for the count. I tried to get her to titrate up. She said it was ok for Ameisen but he did not have a child and a house. The doctor would not engage with Baclofen so we had to get supplies abroad to top up. Low doses help but they don't stop the bingeing. And so it went for over a year until all hell broke loose. It nearly destroyed us. I nearly lost my job. I went off sick, my wife ended up in hospital and worse. We are involved in a whirlwind of legal proceedings arising out of the up and downs of high dose, withdrawal, binge and side effects, none of which we anticipated. We have retained the top doctors in the country to help and even they have difficulty with prescribing the right amount, don't understand how to dose...

So, now, here we are. Our family doctor now is prescribing high dose on the advice of a senior consultant. Everyone involved with us knows about Baclofen. My wife thanked me this morning as I went off to work for finding Baclofen. She says she has never felt better. She is trying 25 mg tablets so she does not have to take so many through the day. Her daughter visited today. The last time she spoke to us was when she screamed abuse at my wife during a drinking binge.

Yes, Baclofen is a wonder drug. It changes everything in our lives and it is set to change the entire landscape of alcohol treatment. I don't have any doubt about that.

I just think you have to do the research on this. It is not a case of saying, Baclofen for some and Topamax for others. Of course, many people stop on their own etc. etc. But the big message is that alcoholism, and a lot of other conditions have an organic/brain cause and are treatable with this molecule called Baclofen and it isn't interchangeable with some other molecule any more than antibiotics are interchangeable with baking powder, even if someone somewhere recovered from an antibacterial infection after they swallowed some baking powder. If you don't "get" that idea, you won't "get" what this debate is about.

This is about a cure or whatever word you want to use to describe Baclofen. It is about a drug that is a cure as opposed to drugs that aren't. It is about a drug that is a cure as opposed to taking no drug. It is about taking this drug and mending the part of the brain that causes a spectrum of disorders which are said to "underlie" alcoholism, particularly anxiety and bipolar as well as autism. It is about stopping drinking but not being a "dry drunk", living a half life, having shakes and anxiety for the rest of your life.

This is about ending the carnage of alcoholism and the suffering of families such as ours and having a life that is worth living. And I mean it when I say that MWO is the best forum on the net because it is saving lives where doctors are failing to.

[TracyA]

Side effects of AA

Otter;1080259 wrote: If you don't "get" that idea, you won't "get" what this debate is about.

I'm lost. Which debate? If you want to debate baclofen vs. topa (which probably ain't the greatest of ideas considering where we are , or that baclofen is the cure for all mental illness (which, in my mind, is just as silly as it sounds) what does that have to do with AA?

What do you hope to accomplish with all that anyway. Arbaclofen is not baclofen, and it is not being *used* to treat autism, it's being studied as a possibility. That's all.

Just because something is being studied for a given disorder, does not mean it is THE treatment, or the best treatment, or even a good treatment. It's a big leap from "studies are being done" to "cure-all for what ails mankind." Not logical in the least, IMO.

And, I'm happy to hear your wife found some peace but, Otter, you were pronouncing her cured well over a year ago. I think you have an incredible, and curious, optimism where baclofen is concerned, but that optimism does not follow logically from what we actually know as scientific fact about baclofen.

Maybe it will in the future. That would be nice. I don't think it's in the cards, but it would be nice.

[ignominious]

Side effects of AA

Otter, glad to hear that you're making progress with the authorities.

I agree baclofen is enormously important. I've read some comments on anon's thread and your comment hear:

Otter;1079535 wrote:

Baclofen does address the underlying issues that cause alcoholic craving. Craving is part of a spectrum of conditions which flow from a deficiency in the amygdala. Autism benefits from Baclofen and a new form of Baclofen, Arbaclofen, is being developed as we speak and being used by some people already. Baclofen is not just for alcoholism. It is already widely used for a wide range of neurlogical issues. It is just that no one realized its full potential and how it actually worked until Ameisen came along. It is a molecule which acts on a part of the brain so it does do the things you say it doesn't.

Indeed, it has cleared up all of the conditions which you mention, except schizophrenia, all of which my wife has been diagnosed with and all of which relate to the amygdala.

I follow that baclofen will fix a part of the amygdala but that in turn will fix all mental illness seems very far fetched and optimistic.

These forums are very lively, I have to agree and I think in no small part due to baclofen. At times it can seem to me that the amount of chatter is similar to the that when a group of us used to smoke some weed and get high together at university.

I also believe that people drink for different reasons. Anxiety being one but hedonism being another and all the reasons in between. I think bac addresses some of the underlying causes of alcoholism but maybe not in such a comprehensive way as you suggest.

It's stopped me drinking. But a "pill for peace" sounds like hippy rubbish to me.

[Otter]

Side effects of AA

TracyA;1080278 wrote: I'm lost. Which debate? If you want to debate baclofen vs. topa (which probably ain't the greatest of ideas considering where we are , or that baclofen is the cure for all mental illness (which, in my mind, is just as silly as it sounds) what does that have to do with AA?

What do you hope to accomplish with all that anyway. Arbaclofen is not baclofen, and it is not being *used* to treat autism, it's being studied as a possibility. That's all.

Just because something is being studied for a given disorder, does not mean it is THE treatment, or the best treatment, or even a good treatment. It's a big leap from "studies are being done" to "cure-all for what ails mankind." Not logical in the least, IMO.

And, I'm happy to hear your wife found some peace but, Otter, you were pronouncing her cured well over a year ago. I think you have an incredible, and curious, optimism where baclofen is concerned, but that optimism does not follow logically from what we actually know as scientific fact about baclofen.

Maybe it will in the future. That would be nice. I don't think it's in the cards, but it would be nice.

People are being treated with Arbaclofen. They have received compassionate approval from the FDA to use it pending its release. Arbaclofen is the right side of the Baclofen molecule.

If you look at when I joined MWO you will see I only joined a year ago so you should be more careful what you say. I came here to get advice on dosage and getting a doctor to prescribe. I have been trying relentlessly to get our GP to accept it as a treatment and it was only last week we accomplished that.

Yes, Baclofen was working a year ago but with relapses at the lower doses.

The "debate" I am referring to is one that has taken over this meds forum over the past year, namely, whether Baclofen is a "cure" for acoholism.

I think it is, you don't. Debate!

Ig, I agree it seems far fetched. So was Dick Tracey's wrist watch phone when I was a kid. Maybe my dose is too high.

Peace be with you.

[Going Strong]

Side effects of AA

The fact that baclofen is not patented is the biggest factor!

Pharmacitucal ( Sp? I know I am a poor speller) companys are not going to make money on this so they don't promote it to doctors........ so doctors don't hear about baclofen from reps!

Alot of docs only know what is going on from reps........and they don't promote it because the company will no make money!!!

Same as top! Not enough research from patients.

It is all about money and we all can see it happening now!

[ignominious]

Side effects of AA

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbn...8a1c9be0f53837
http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbn...8a1c9be0f53837


EDIT: Can't get this to work. Its an avatar of an otter doing a peace sign.

[Otter]

Side effects of AA

I know him from somewhere.

[PbarE]

Side effects of AA

Going Strong;1080593 wrote: The fact that baclofen is not patented is the biggest factor!

Pharmacitucal ( Sp? I know I am a poor speller) companys are not going to make money on this so they don't promote it to doctors........ so doctors don't hear about baclofen from reps!

Alot of docs only know what is going on from reps........and they don't promote it because the company will no make money!!!

Same as top! Not enough research from patients.

It is all about money and we all can see it happening now!

And that is the biggest obstacle to bac going "mainstream". Until that is overcome, there will be no real leap forward in bac awareness.

Otter, I have been pondering this a lot. I think the way to go about it is through the treatment centers. Lets face it - thay have a stranglehold on the recovery industry. And while the suits that run them probably don't care, the counselors and docs on the front line are tired of seeing their patients die. These folks would embrace bac. In fact there are three places in Texas, that I know of, that use it at low doses.

If the treatment centers use it, and show tangible results, bac would spread as an accepted method.

However, Tracy has a valid point. Absent a long term study ruling out possible negative long term consequences of bac use, it will be an uphill battle. In Dr. A's book, I recall a neurologist saying that he would never go over 300 mgs a day. Has anyone credible ever said anything to the contrary? Bac kicked my ass at 280mgs, so I had to come back down.

This high dose protocol would really seem to lend itself to being done in a treatment center setting.

[Otter]

Side effects of AA

Hi

I agree. Bac has grown by word of mouth and Ameisen's book. It is like the Aid's drugs which people bought twenty years ago from overseas. If people are desperate and there is a treatment they will find it. When it is as successful as Baclofen it will have to grow. Our GP is on the "Main Street" of our town/suburb. She has no interest in alcoholism but is now prescribing. Our consultant is treating liver patients with it and says it works. He goes to conferences, writes. That cannot and will not be ignored within the medical profession and when he tells a doctor to start prescribing they listen, believe me. It may be the liver end of things which pushes this forward because it is the last hope for many liver patients and there are studies and research articles about its use on liver patients.

I think this will grow more quickly than a lot of people think. On my site I can tell how many people are searching and what they are searching for when they find the site. It is not a lot per day but it is thousands over the past 9 months. Awareness of the medication is growing and even if it has side effects, it works in the long run. I know a lot of people stop using it, don't like the side effects. No one is forcing anyone to take it.

I suppose I am mainly making a prediction. I said in a post a long time ago that it is a bit like watching a TV program like Sex and the City back in the mid nineties and thinking you were the only one, then you find out everyone is watching it. I expect Baclofen will be the same. One day Ameisen will turn up to some event and he will be mobbed.

Just by way of an aside, I worked as a lawyer in Bristol and I got involved in a dispute with another lawyer who was struck off for dishonesty. I was annoyed that he had his name emblazoned on the side of a building and I knew the building had been seized by the bank under mortgage proceedings. I wanted to get rid of his phone number so my staff, who used to work for him would not have their clients phoning the old number.

I came up with the idea of having someone go up a ladder in daylight, dressed as a professional painter. I figured the bank wouldn't know or care, the Law Society would not care as it was illegal for him to have his number published. I mentioned it to one of my staff and he said he knew someone who could do that.

A few weeks later I drove by the building and lo and behold, there was a huge painting in place of the lawyer's advertisement.

Down the right hand corner was a signature of the artist who I had never heard of: BANKSY

So, it goes to show that little things like this forum can grow into something big that people know about all over the world. Don't underestimate the power of this forum.

[PbarE]

Side effects of AA

Otter;1080654 wrote: Hi


Just by way of an aside, I worked as a lawyer in Bristol and I got involved in a dispute with another lawyer who was struck off for dishonesty. I was annoyed that he had his name emblazoned on the side of a building and I knew the building had been seized by the bank under mortgage proceedings. I wanted to get rid of his phone number so my staff, who used to work for him would not have their clients phoning the old number.

I came up with the idea of having someone go up a ladder in daylight, dressed as a professional painter. I figured the bank wouldn't know or care, the Law Society would not care as it was illegal for him to have his number published. I mentioned it to one of my staff and he said he knew someone who could do that.

A few weeks later I drove by the building and lo and behold, there was a huge painting in place of the lawyer's advertisement.

Down the right hand corner was a signature of the artist who I had never heard of: BANKSY.

That is a classic!!

[Otter]

Side effects of AA

PbarE;1080659 wrote: That is a classic!!

I wish I had gone up the ladder myself!

[gyco]

Side effects of AA

learning process

Otter;1080654 wrote: Hi

I agree. Bac has grown by word of mouth and Ameisen's book. It is like the Aid's drugs which people bought twenty years ago from overseas. If people are desperate and there is a treatment they will find it. When it is as successful as Baclofen it will have to grow. Our GP is on the "Main Street" of our town/suburb. She has no interest in alcoholism but is now prescribing. Our consultant is treating liver patients with it and says it works. He goes to conferences, writes. That cannot and will not be ignored within the medical profession and when he tells a doctor to start prescribing they listen, believe me. It may be the liver end of things which pushes this forward because it is the last hope for many liver patients and there are studies and research articles about its use on liver patients.

I think this will grow more quickly than a lot of people think. On my site I can tell how many people are searching and what they are searching for when they find the site. It is not a lot per day but it is thousands over the past 9 months. Awareness of the medication is growing and even if it has side effects, it works in the long run. I know a lot of people stop using it, don't like the side effects. No one is forcing anyone to take it.

I suppose I am mainly making a prediction. I said in a post a long time ago that it is a bit like watching a TV program like Sex and the City back in the mid nineties and thinking you were the only one, then you find out everyone is watching it. I expect Baclofen will be the same. One day Ameisen will turn up to some event and he will be mobbed.

Just by way of an aside, I worked as a lawyer in Bristol and I got involved in a dispute with another lawyer who was struck off for dishonesty. I was annoyed that he had his name emblazoned on the side of a building and I knew the building had been seized by the bank under mortgage proceedings. I wanted to get rid of his phone number so my staff, who used to work for him would not have their clients phoning the old number.

I came up with the idea of having someone go up a ladder in daylight, dressed as a professional painter. I figured the bank wouldn't know or care, the Law Society would not care as it was illegal for him to have his number published. I mentioned it to one of my staff and he said he knew someone who could do that.

A few weeks later I drove by the building and lo and behold, there was a huge painting in place of the lawyer's advertisement.

Down the right hand corner was a signature of the artist who I had never heard of: BANKSY

So, it goes to show that little things like this forum can grow into something big that people know about all over the world. Don't underestimate the power of this forum.

hi otter this may one day be the greatest thread of all, but is there such a thing ,as being the greatest thread ?:H the more i read this thread the more it grows on me, hahahah,if Bac is working use it,like any other medication of years ago,penicillin and others,the system needed guinea pigs,what your saying is not wrong,i beleive someone said it,they ll take the long term effects just to stay free of the drunkeness,for years,someone also again mentioned AA,like Bac for millions its a way to stop ?:thanks: i hope this thread keeps movin on,i know alchoholism will never stop gyco

[Lo0p]

Side effects of AA

Post. :moon: