Side effects of AA

[TracyA]

Side effects of AA

Cinders;1076555 wrote: What the eff is the point of this thread?

Making sure those who have found their way out with AA know they are delusional?

Or those who can't know they are okay?
I do not think that anyone yet has said anything about the people in AA but rather critiqued the institution itself (and it's quite an INSTITUTION).

I don't care to rewrite it, so once again this is the purpose of this thread:

The thing is that many people who are coming out of AA might as well be coming out of a concentration camp. I saw a lot of this in SMART too. The people coming here out of AA often feel angry and betrayed and have failed so many times ? and have been told what that means in AA terms (that they are constitutionally incapable of being honest; that they are ?spiritually unfit.?) Whenever a new person came into SMART, we?d all sigh and sit back for the rant that we?d all heard before because the newcomer needed time to vent all that sadness and anger. People in that position have been abused, and it?s okay with me if they use space on the meds forum to share their experience with each other and debrief and defrag from the AA trauma.

On top of that, you might have noticed that MWO is the only major recovery site on the net that does NOT have a 12-step section. It does, however, have a meds forum. I believe that's because the founder of this site decided the former was of little value and the latter was of great value.

Now, the 5% rate success rate is problematic for two reasons 1) 5% is the rate of "spontaneous remission" which means people who simply stop drinking with no participation in any program or on any med, which means that AA has a success rate every bit as good as nothing at all.

The problem is, it has a higher death rate, which is not at all surprising given the tenets of AA (self-fulfilling prophecy is powerful stuff).

Find a ride on another pony, K?

Well, Pony hasn't posted on this thread yet. If he does, maybe I'll ask him for ride. I've always wanted to!

[JohnR]

Side effects of AA

shirazgirl;1076529 wrote: The founder of this sight now abstains. Now why would that be? I'm just saying.

The founder of this site believes in combo therapy: medication, hypnosis, nutritional supplements, exercise and support (hope I’m not missing anything). And last I knew, she moderates. AA is a tool that works for some, including you.

[TracyA]

Side effects of AA

KundaliniGirl;1076526 wrote: a drink that happens to change the neural pathways in the brain............

True, but if the bac theory is right, the pathways are the problem, the drink is a temporary solution to that problem.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Side effects of AA

I agree. I think it's become a vehicle to taunt and gloat and make fun.

Martin Luther King Jr. was no saint.
Neither, it turns out, was Ghandi.
I haven't dug up anything on Mother Theresa yet, but I'm sure someone will.
Talking about a man on his deathbed? come on. We can have a profound discussion about the merits/or not of different aspects of finding a way out with out being nasty/silly/unpleasant.

This began as a thought-provoking, stimulating thread based on fact.

EDIT: Sorry I wasn't clear. I agree with Cinders.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Side effects of AA

Pony has indeed posted on this thread.

Now we're debating bac without resorting to the actual research???
seriously. I'm going to breath and relax...
And have room for all kinds of thoughts and ideas, because I like to think outside of the box.

[TracyA]

Side effects of AA

Ne/Neva Eva;1076592 wrote:
Talking about a man on his deathbed? come on. We can have a profound discussion about the merits/or not of different aspects of finding a way out with out being nasty/silly/unpleasant.

I do not think that Coffee intended to be nasty, silly or unpleasant. I did not either. I think the episode does point out that 1) Bill never lost the compulsion to drink, and 2) He suffered because those around him wanted to keep his reputation in tact. That has everything to do with the "institution," and the only goading I've seen is from people posting on behalf of AA.

It's always good to take a break.

[PbarE]

Side effects of AA

beatle;1075949 wrote:
AA is a tool, not a treatment.

(from a post on another thread):
In this thread, and in most other discussions like this, there seems to be an accepted premise that it is either/or, one or the other, diametrically opposed, my way-your way.

But I don't think AA was intended to be that way, at all. (?) I recall that the AA founder said (in a speech -- Lo0p posted it, and many others have referred to it) that he envisioned a future when science would be solving the problems (physiologically) and this would go hand-in-hand with AA and its developed protocol. (A loose paraphrasing, at best.)

Dr. David Gertsen (also a supps/aminos guy) proposes this (yes, I am quoting him yet again... because I feel it is very pertinent)

"Secondly, you need to understand that support systems, including Alcoholics Anonymous (AA), according to a great deal of research, do not have better than a 5 percent cure rate. Mind you, I refer my alcoholic patients to AA. AA was never intended as a treatment modality. It is support and is profoundly helpful.

But alcoholism is a physical disease. You cannot cure diabetes or cancer through support groups or psychotherapy, nor can you cure alcoholism through such support. I also don't buy into the nearly universal belief that alcoholism is an incurable disease.

Excellent post, beatle. I deleted the parts that were not pertinent to the point I am about to try and make.

I have been a member of AA and NA, off and on, since 1988. (Yes, I am one of “them”). During that time, I have enjoyed long stretches of sobriety (almost 9 years at one point) and had periods where I couldn’t even make it an hour.

We are all on our own journey, and I respect everyone’s right to walk whatever path they are on. There is no “one size fits all” approach to this deal. But for me, the 12 steps have “worked’, in that it I have had some stretches of sobriety I would not have otherwise had. You hear all these stats that AA has a success rate of less than 5%. That is simply not true. Those studies are based on false data.

I have seen a study from a graduate school in Texas which states that 25% of the people who come in and work the steps stay sober for good and for all. Another 25% do what I have done – show improvement but fail to stay sober for good and for all. The other 50% just don’t make it. Not a great rate of success, but better than what we have been led to believe. I am getting a copy of this study and will post it.

In my opinion, Bac is a double edged sword. A lot of folks on this thread are claiming they are “cured”. I don’t see it that way. Bac treats one-third of our illness – the physical part. Initially, that is the most important. If we don’t quiet our brains, we are pissing in the wind.

But we are genetically pre-disposed to addiction. Bac does not cure this. It merely washes our transmitters clean. All the emotional and psychological crap which drove us to drink/drug in the first place is still there. If that isn’t treated, we are doomed to repeat the cycle, IMO. At best, bac gives me a period of grace to address my underlying causes.

Counseling can treat the mental (emotional) part of the disease. The 12 steps treat the spiritual part – the part of us that is selfish and fearful.

I think it takes a combination of treatment modalities to slay the dragon. This is the path I am taking. Your path is your business.

I am on 280 mgs, and nodded off twice while writing this, so I don’t know how cogent it will sound. At the very least, some of you will get a good laugh out of it. And I am sure I will be attacked and get pissed off. That’s okay – I will just do a 10th step on, learn something about myself, and move past it.

[PbarE]

Side effects of AA

TracyA;1076601 wrote: 1) Bill never lost the compulsion to drink, It's always good to take a break.

Tracy, you can lose the compulsion to drink and have it return. This is not my opinion, that is my experience.

Bill W. was not a saint, and it is unfortunate people try to make him out to be. He was just an ordinary drunk who happened upon a revolutionary idea.

[coalfire]

Side effects of AA

I think we have to fight alcoholism on all fronts,hence my signature. I think your signature makes a similar point pbarE.

[TracyA]

Side effects of AA

PbarE;1076607 wrote:
I have seen a study from a graduate school in Texas which states that 25% of the people who come in and work the steps stay sober for good and for all. Another 25% do what I have done ? show improvement but fail to stay sober for good and for all. The other 50% just don?t make it. Not a great rate of success, but better than what we have been led to believe.

And a damn sight less than, "Rarely have we seen a person fail . . . " Are you okay that what is read at the beginning of every AA meeting is an out and out lie?

I am not.

[Seethepony]

Side effects of AA

Note to Neva ; "I haven't dug up anything on Mother Theresa yet"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WQ0i3nCx60[/video]]YouTube - Hell's Angel: Mother Teresa by Christopher Hitchens (1 of 3)

[TracyA]

Side effects of AA

coalfire;1076614 wrote: I think we have to fight alcoholism on all fronts,hence my signature. I think your signature makes a similar point pbarE.

I think that if it's okay to talk about the side effects of baclofen and what it all means, it should be just dandy fine to do the same with AA - without people feeling like they are being personally attacked. It is, after all, the only thing offered by the medicine and the only thing offered by the courts. That sucks rocks! I'm fine with whatever an individual does to stop drinking - if becoming fundamentalist Islam does, so be it. If becoming fundamentalist AA does it, great. The problem is - and I cannot overstate this point - AA kills people.

Are we all into "personal testimony" here? Fine. Here's one of mine: My kid brother was the worst alcoholic I have ever personally known. He attended an AA meeting once. He was told the old AA adage, which is grand favorite of old-timers, and echoed over and over again through AA meetings everywhere: "Take the cotton out of your ears, shove it in your mouth and listen."

What a grand opportunity it might have been for him, but instead of understanding of his doubts, the terribly shy young man got that often repeated bullshit. He never went back, and there was no where else to go because AA completely dominated (indeed still *rules*) the treatment industry. He died a few years ago. He did get sober in the end but only because the MS and cancer and sufficiently kicked his ass that he had no compulsion to drink anything, including water.

So, ya'll can take your "AA is okay," nonsense to some other thread. That's NOT what this thread is about. AA is NOT okay, and I have several of my own stories that I could add.

Anyone else care to step up with personal testimony about how great AA is?

Anyone?

[PbarE]

Side effects of AA

TracyA;1076618 wrote: And a damn sight less than, "Rarely have we seen a person fail . . . " Are you okay that what is read at the beginning of every AA meeting is an out and out lie?

I am not.

I am not either. When Bill wrote that in 1939, ther were only 100 members. AA is a totally different animal today.

AA has remained unchanged, basically since is inception. I think it needs to be updated. I am more of an NA guy now.

[Otter]

Side effects of AA

I have every respect for Bill Wilson and what he set out to achieve. AA has helped and does help a lot of people but it is outdated in light of advances in neurosciences.

Bill Wilson recognized that more had to be done on the medical front.

This as overtones of a religious dispute. The Twelve Steps is the Old Testament. Bill Wilson saw a future in which AA and medical science came together. Olivier Ameisen has fulfilled that prophesy.

Maybe AA needs to refocus and accept these medical advances so that AA meetings can be as uplifting as this forum. Maybe there needs to be a new AA for people to discuss their experiences with Baclofen.

We are all trying to find the good in AA so maybe AA needs to embrace Baclofen. How, I don't know.

[Cassia]

Side effects of AA

Actually yeah...except it's not AA so much as NA. It NA which I believe are tenets of the same thing. No doubt you will correct me if I am wrong.

My sister has been sober for the past seven years and what helped her maintain her sobriety is NA. She had some serious drug issues - started with a wee bit of mary jane and then onto e. Then she discovered oxycontin which eventually lead to herion use. By the time she was 21 she had overdosed twice as well as tried to commit suicide twice. She did eventually make the decision to go to rehab (although she was practically forced into it due to personal circumstances) and part of that rehabiliation was to attend NA and also AA. She largely credits this with her recovery today. And I am thankful for it - she would be dead otherwise. The support she found in NA and the 12 step program has helped her immensely and kept her sober along with a lot of will power and determination. She does not take any medication to combat against her addictions.

At the end of the day, people have to take responsibility for their personal choices and the medical profession does have to take alcohol seriously. If alcohol does cause an allergic reaction in people as there is evidence to show then it's pretty simple. You don't drink. If you are allergic to nuts, you don't go and eat a peanut butter sandwich. If you are lactose intolerant then its probably not wise to eat a cheesecake. It doesn't matter how you get to the not drinking whether it be by Bac, AA, SMART, practicing withcraft whatever. But the most important thing is that you don't drink.

TracyA - I am terribly sorry for what happened to your brother but I don't think its entirely fair lay the blame at AA's door - surely the medical professionals who treated him are partly to blame.