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    Side effects of AA

    Sheri;1077195 wrote: Coal,

    You must have missed Tracy's post about Cindi. I personally find it offensive and unkind.

    You have got to be kidding me! You must have a very different definition of "unkind" than I do. In your mind, it's just dandy fine to hatefully mock someone who spent a month in the hospital, flat-lined, described his misery in all it's heartbreak - but it's NOT okay to say "I hope she is drunk because I'd hate to believe that's who she really is?" I'm still hoping, because I liked Cindi before. I'm having a really hard time liking her now. You, Sheri, are off the wall in your perceptions of "unkind," and if you are "personally offended" that is your personal issue. Perhaps you should join AA write a 4th step on it - find out which of your character defects is causing your unhappiness. That is the AA way.

    Sheri, take your amazingly prejudiced POV and just get bent. Oh, was that unkind? Tough. Perhaps you should complain about this very post, and maybe, just maybe, someone will come rescue you from having to actually think about what you are doing and saying. Maybe you need stop being the PC police long enough to actually follow the discussion and fully absorb what Cindi said.

    The problem with this thread is that "side effects" of AA cannot be discussed without people flipping out. You have yet to address the issues raised on this thread. To you and your ilk, it''s slaughtering the golden calf, it's blasphemy. Anything anyone says, including the mind-bendingly hateful remark from Cindi, is acceptable. So long as they share your POV?

    And, "side effects" refers to unwanted
    effects. There is a whole LOT of discussion in this forum about side effects (UNWANTED effects) of medication. There are numerous threads on MWO praising the virtues of AA. Yet, the first thing to happen on this thread was people posting that thread should not exist. And now you want to see it shut down.

    The thing is, and I CANNOT overstate this: AA kills people. Capiche? It's destructive, it's horribly damaging, it's sick to the very core of the program, and it dominates the treatment industry (you know, all those issues that you are your ilk refuse to acknowledge). So you moan and wring your hands all you like, but I am not going to stop because I make you uncomfortable or because someone's feelings got hurt. The subject is too important because: AA kills people.

    I don't know how old you are, but do you remember the rabid feminists in the 60s? They were incredibly confrontational and sometimes not very nice. But they were trying to unseat a socially-accepted norm that was horribly destructive and oppressive - and what they did worked. I'm glad they did not back down to the likes of PC police like you. I intend to follow their lead.

    Why don't you just either address the issues raised in this thread or go back to discussions that actually interest you. If you get this thread shut down, I promise to start another. What are you going to do then? Have me banned? The best of luck with that, my dear.
    * * *

    Tracy

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      Side effects of AA

      Murphyx;1077218 wrote: Now back to the fight everyone, I was rather enjoying it.
      Now, that's funny!:H I'm enjoying it too - on many levels. I love that people can express their views here. I truly hope that this thread is NOT shut down.

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        Side effects of AA

        it would be funny only this is so serious AA does not kill people every, person has the choice to drink or not . Drink ... drink....drink....drink kills if you don't drink you won't die. this was started as a thread about the side effect of AA and you have hijacked it to slag of AA. Start a new thred called " I hate AA" then there would be no problem
        AF 5/jan/2011

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          Side effects of AA

          madmans;1077249 wrote: it would be funny only this is so serious AA does not kill people every, person has the choice to drink or not .
          YAY! Problem solved! There is no need for AA, no need for MWO, no need for any of it - just choose not to drink!

          Thanks, madmans, for a simple solution to a problem that vexes so many. It is, unfortunately, not AA doctrine at all. You are an AA guy - you should know that. So, come on, madmans, what is the AA conference-approved reason why people continue to drink? You must know the answer to that! I'd really like you to present that answer. I'd really like you to use your fingers and have to type out the words, and feel them, - and then defend those words.
          * * *

          Tracy

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            Side effects of AA

            Sheri;1077250 wrote: I happen to have views about AA and would have liked to be to share them but felt unsafe doing so in this thread because I was one of the ones being attacked.
            I would love to hear them, and would be very interested in what you have to say.
            Look at a stone cutter hammering away at his rock, perhaps a hundred times without as much as a crack showing in it. Yet at the hundred-and-first blow it will split in two, and I know it was not the last blow that did it, but all that had gone before.
            - Jacob August Riis

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              Side effects of AA

              time for you to read back tracy and to see am i an AA guy, how many facts are you going to get wrong in one day
              AF 5/jan/2011

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                Side effects of AA

                ok Tracy. You want to talk issues and I want to talk issues. i like to pick things apart. If someone said to me ok away you go coalfire. DO what you want with the alkies in Ireland. Here is what I would do.
                1I would open up a central clinic in Dublin.

                2 Once a month I would have an educational day on alcoholism explaining how alcoholism starts,what It might look like,how it might progress etc. I would do this so that young alcoholics could absorb the information in a calm manner and not have the flipping life scared out of them. it would be polite and factually based. No one would be told to put cotton in their mouths.

                3 I would have a doc come to explain the meds situation-what we know,what we dont knowetc

                4 I would have a psychiatrist based in this clinic to assess people for underlying issues eg anxiety,mood disorders etc and I would make sure every alkie understood the principle of self medication

                5 I would choose the most progressive members of AA like doggygirl etc to sit down and pick out the good stuff from AA. (i would arrange for mr dogggy to post her over to me).Things like what to tell your friends,dealing with resentment,how an alcoholic might never be able to drink safely again,the possible benefits of letting go of moderation etc. Then I would set up a support group where all these things can be discussed.

                6 I would ditch God. Sorry God. This is a medical clinic.

                7 I would have a nutritionist in to give talks

                8 someone to talk about exercise.

                9 self loathing would be identified and tackled on the spot.
                Alcoholism would be seen as a medical condition.

                I would have a hang out spot like a cafe and an AF bar etc.


                What would you do Tracy?
                I am a sobriety tart. AA/Smart/RR philosophy, meds/diet/exercise/prayer,rabbbits feet/four leaf clovers/horseshoes. Yes please.I will have them all thank you very much.Bring them on


                There is no way the bottle is going to be stronger than I am.

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                  Side effects of AA

                  coalfire;1077262 wrote: ok Tracy. You want to talk issues and I want to talk issues. i like to pick things apart. If someone said to me ok away you go coalfire. DO what you want with the alkies in Ireland. Here is what I would do.
                  1I would open up a central clinic in Dublin.

                  2 Once a month I would have an educational day on alcoholism explaining how alcoholism starts,what It might look like,how it might progress etc. I would do this so that young alcoholics could absorb the information in a calm manner and not have the flipping life scared out of them. it would be polite and factually based. No one would be told to put cotton in their mouths.

                  3 I would have a doc come to explain the meds situation-what we know,what we dont knowetc

                  4 I would have a psychiatrist based in this clinic to assess people for underlying issues eg anxiety,mood disorders etc and I would make sure every alkie understood the principle of self medication

                  5 I would choose the most progressive members of AA like doggygirl etc to sit down and pick out the good stuff from AA. (i would arrange for mr dogggy to post her over to me).Things like what to tell your friends,dealing with resentment,how an alcoholic might never be able to drink safely again,the possible benefits of letting go of moderation etc. Then I would set up a support group where all these things can be discussed.

                  6 I would ditch God. Sorry God. This is a medical clinic.

                  7 I would have a nutritionist in to give talks

                  8 someone to talk about exercise.

                  9 self loathing would be identified and tackled on the spot.
                  Alcoholism would be seen as a medical condition.

                  I would have a hang out spot like a cafe and an AF bar etc.


                  What would you do Tracy?
                  Brilliant, CF!!!
                  Look at a stone cutter hammering away at his rock, perhaps a hundred times without as much as a crack showing in it. Yet at the hundred-and-first blow it will split in two, and I know it was not the last blow that did it, but all that had gone before.
                  - Jacob August Riis

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                    Side effects of AA

                    Ditto - excellent ideas - can you run for office CF?

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                      Side effects of AA

                      ........
                      "In the depths of winter I finally learned there was in me an invincible summer ."
                      AF - JAN 1st 2010
                      NF - May 1996

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                        Side effects of AA

                        Coalfire, I am very much with you. I just found this article this morning. I love Canada!

                        B.C. to treat alcoholism as chronic illness

                        coalfire;1077262 wrote:
                        1I would open up a central clinic in Dublin.
                        I would volunteer to be your admin assistant, build your website and make the coffee.

                        2 Once a month I would have an educational day on alcoholism explaining how alcoholism starts,what It might look like,how it might progress etc. I would do this so that young alcoholics could absorb the information in a calm manner and not have the flipping life scared out of them. it would be polite and factually based. No one would be told to put cotton in their mouths.

                        I like it so far. It would be difficult to do without adding a fear factor. So far, I know of only one person who was so scared of alcoholism that he did not become an alcoholic. He was my grandfather (died before I was born). His dad was alkie extrarordinaire, so he never touched the stuff. I agree, it could certainly be done without the grand authoritarian stand in AA.

                        3 I would have a doc come to explain the meds situation-what we know,what we dont knowetc
                        Bravo! You'd still have a problem with bac though. At least you would in the US - sooner or later, someone would do something stupid and the clinic would get sued. I can envision a treatment center, similar to what Sunny went through, that begins the dosing. But, such a center could not ramp up as required for OA's protocol. I don't know how they do it in France. I really wish that I did know.

                        4 I would have a psychiatrist based in this clinic to assess people for underlying issues eg anxiety,mood disorders etc and I would make sure every alkie understood the principle of self medication
                        Yep. Could one-shot with a psychiatrist accomplish an accurate diagnosis though?

                        5 I would choose the most progressive members of AA like doggygirl etc to sit down and pick out the good stuff from AA. (i would arrange for mr dogggy to post her over to me).Things like what to tell your friends,dealing with resentment,how an alcoholic might never be able to drink safely again,the possible benefits of letting go of moderation etc. Then I would set up a support group where all these things can be discussed.
                        I love DG, but why choose a program that is so inherently flawed? There is a lot of social support in AA, and lots of meetings - and that is it's BIG asset and the greatest liability for people who cannot swallow AA. It's also free, but it's one of those situations where you get what pay for. I think attempting moderation is a bad idea too. But why not choose something like SMART?

                        6 I would ditch God. Sorry God. This is a medical clinic.
                        Yes, we really need to eject God from addiction treatment in the US, and from curriculum, and from politics, but I digress.

                        7 I would have a nutritionist in to give talks

                        8 someone to talk about exercise.
                        All good. Those are usually talked about in treatment though.

                        9 self loathing would be identified and tackled on the spot.
                        You really need to lose AA then.

                        Alcoholism would be seen as a medical condition.

                        I would have a hang out spot like a cafe and an AF bar etc.
                        I like the hang out spot. Especially in places where there are not a great deal of sober outlets, it would be a cool.
                        * * *

                        Tracy

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                          Side effects of AA

                          KundaliniGirl;1077267 wrote: Ditto - excellent ideas - can you run for office CF?
                          He's about a month late, and Ireland's about 86 billion quid in the hole.

                          Coalfire, if you've had any contact with the HSE drugs/alcohol rehabilitation system, you'd know that this is impossible.

                          Theres a six month waiting list to see a HSE psychiatrist.

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                            Side effects of AA

                            madmans;1077261 wrote: time for you to read back tracy and to see am i an AA guy, how many facts are you going to get wrong in one day
                            Engage the issues, madmans. If you really do not know the AA conference-approved answer to the question of why people continue to drink. Look it up (it's on this very thread). Then defend it. That answer is part and parcel of how AA kills people. If you continue to refuse to address the point-by-point issues raised, I am going to ignore you. Your statement that it's all a matter of choice is truly ignorant of addiction. Why are you even on MWO if you truly believe that is true? You simply choose not to drink - problem solved! That statement also casts the people who suffer from addiction (and eating disorders and the majority of cases of diabetes and a whole host of other conditions) as perpetrators instead of victims of an illness. Maybe you really believe that. If you do, then you will find very little on the meds forum that you will like. I cannot imagine what you would like about MWO at all . . .
                            * * *

                            Tracy

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                              Side effects of AA

                              your missing my point. my point is if you can grasp it. when you come out with AA kills it drives people away, what i said was do what ever you have to do to stop drinking if meds do it fine , if AA fine. whats your answer to all the people that can't get the meds ? keep drinking you only have a 5% of making it so why not. So what do i do if i go back drinking and can't get meds, i'd like an answer for that , we don't all live in the states
                              AF 5/jan/2011

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                                Side effects of AA

                                madmans, if you can't get meds, do whatever works with you. You still have not addressed one single issue that others and I have raised on AA. That's what this thread is about - the "side effects" of AA, the unwanted consequences of the globally dominant, incredibly rich, ridiculously religious, obscenely moralistic program that trumps science in the treatment of addiction. That is the topic. I say AA kills people because AA kills people, that is one "side effect" of AA. That is entirely on-topic for this thread. If saying that drives people away, what would you have me do? Not tell the truth? No thanks.

                                Once again, please engage the issues raised on this thread. The subject line says "The Side Effects of AA," so we're talking about the unwanted consequences . . .
                                * * *

                                Tracy

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