Side effects of AA

[bleep]

Side effects of AA

Quite simply, because it works. I think it's more practical rather than evangelic.

If the medical community actually bothered to do anything, I'm sure they could minimise the SE's, which in my case were mostly positive anyway.

[Ringing Cedars]

Side effects of AA

No one is saying there is not a broad range of avenues to MWO excepting those that want their way.

[TracyA]

Side effects of AA

AllyB;1078810 wrote: It's this level of evangelism that will make the medical establishment likely to ignore baclofen.

That worries me too. It's made me uncomfortable since I first came back to MWO. The first thing that I think of when I hear that stuff is: What's the agenda? Evangelism always comes with an agenda. My doubt is not because I don't believe that baclofen works. I do believe that. But it is a very difficult protocol. A lot of people with a wide range of health problems would not do well with it, and a lot of people with mental issues would not do well with it either. We've seen that at MWO already.

Some of the stuff I hear here, like that baclofen is answer to all mental illness - that's just off the wall. I think that it is good stuff. I think that it will work well for the people for whom it works well. But, I don't think it is likely to become the next AA, a globally dominant, first-line-of-defense kind of thing. There's no one-true-wayism that is ever really true.

[Sunnyvalenting]

Side effects of AA

I popped back on to respond to a PM. I am fascinated by this very lively thread.
Otter, Please do not "kill" the thread. I hate that. All that has been said goes "poof" and I am left "unfulfilled!". It leaves so much unresolved and, IMO, solves nothing.

I sincerely attempted AA for several years and failed. Because I had accepted their message I felt that it was my own constitutional nature which caused the failure. This was extremely disheartening as I had truly tried to "follow their simple path".

When I finally recovered on baclofen (over a year now) I went to AA online website and was kicked off and my server blocked for a week for bringing up my baclofen experience! I had wanted to share my experience but it was "not program" and had no place even in their chat room! I was astonished, appalled and amazed at this blatant censorship of an important topic.

IMO AA is a religion. It has prophets, holy books and approved liturature, saints, apostates, liturgy and prayers. It has an extreme reluctance to embrace scientific change. Sound familiar? I would not consult a book written in the 1930s to help me cure my cancer. Why would I consult one regarding my neurochemical tendency to addiction and dependency? If AA were really open to actual facts they would have updated their message and methods long ago.

BTW I went first to AA because my mother had recovered in a 28 day rehab followed by AA meetings for 13 years until here sober death in 2000. She must have been one of the 5% who do well. My initial prejudice and assumptions were that I would too so it wasn't without genuine faith (of the athiestic type) that I went and stayed so long.

Jack Trimpey who wrote the Rational Recovery books has a lot to say about AA, their grip on the recovery industry, court mandates, etc. He also, as a competitor, has a definite axe to grind and could be considered "part of the problem" as he totally defines the cure as the discipline of choosing permanent abstinence through Addictive Voice Recognition. He believes meds undermine this technique. I believe they can enhance each other. I also believe there are a few positive things to learn from some of the AA literature and meetings but overall I think they did me more harm than good.

Everybody breath now. Go to your corners and come back swinging! I love it. At least were not drowning our passions in drink!

Thanks to Otter for starting the thread. Please don't shut it down!

All the best,
Sunny

[Booktree]

Side effects of AA

I, too, want to say I support this thread and am so glad Otter started it, for Tracy's (and others') eloquent and passionate declamations, and, though I have not participated much at all in any part of these forums lately, this is the one thread I have been following with keen interest. I have found it extremely validating, in terms of my very negative experiences of having been an AA member for the past 5 years. Like Sunny, I too had complete faith in the program, spent 7 months of my life this past year and well over $100,000 on one of the country's top 12-step oriented treatment centers that was nothing more than an indoctrination camp for AA and NA, only to find out the whole thing is a fraud and nothing more than a holding pen, as most of the clients went on to relapse (including me) after leaving.

And then to be told that I wasn't "working the program" hard enough, sincerely enough, diligently enough, etc... That my spiritual life must have been bankrupt, that I must be holding onto resentments, must be flawed in some profound way, etc... I was the most ardent supporter of spirituality both in the rooms and at the treatment center, meditated daily, went to church, read scripture, and had a very strong faith (Catholic) at the time.

I have worked all 12 steps, made amends, prayed every day, read the Big Book and other conference-approved literature on a daily basis, believed in God (no longer), did 4th step inventories, met with a sponsor weekly, went to 4-5 meetings a week, tried, tried, tried to keep drinking the kool-aid, but damn if it didn't just taste funny to me after a while. I got tired of being told to "leave my intellect at the door," "stop analyzing things," "stop thinking so much". Excuse me? Just shut down all critical thinking... don't dare question the never-ending trite platitudes, the dime-store psychology, the pseudo-spirituality, the self-righteous sanctimony (hello groupthink? brainwashing?). I found it an insult to my very identity to be told to shut my mind off and just swallow the religious dogma, and yes, it is a religion, Sunny is spot-on about that. Well, I lost my faith in the 12 steps, because I finally saw through the facade.

I found out about Baclofen and was so grateful to know there was perhaps another way out. Perhaps it is not the medication for me in the long run, but I do think it has helped, and I have been able to be AF since I started taking it (about a month and a half ago). I still have not entirely broken free of the clutches of AA and still go to one meeting a week (out of guilt? fear because I swallowed their line that if I leave and never come back I will drink and die? for a bit of social support because otherwise I'm a total loner? don't know)... But I generally keep my mouth shut tight. I do not talk about the steps or the "program", don't really share anything, don't have a sponsor, and would never dare mention Baclofen because I know that what happened to Sunny on the forum would happen to me in realtime. They don't want to hear about anything that falls outside the orthodoxy of a program established in the 1930s-- a cult of faith-healing based on the teachings of the Oxford Group, a neo-fascist Protestant evangelist movement founded by a fan of Adolph Hitler (Frank Buchman).

No thanks.

[Guest]

Side effects of AA

I just realised that AA wasn't for me, I knew this for a quite a while and so stopped going. I gave it another try when I was starting to want to drink again last year, but it didn't stop me relapsing so I just moved on. I've always been very independent in that way.

Oh and I did read the book, start praying etc etc. I just had an idea I could get sober without them - or die trying!

[TracyA]

Side effects of AA

Sunnyvalenting;1078883 wrote:
When I finally recovered on baclofen (over a year now) I went to AA online website and was kicked off and my server blocked for a week for bringing up my baclofen experience! I had wanted to share my experience but it was "not program" and had no place even in their chat room! I was astonished, appalled and amazed at this blatant censorship of an important topic.
I remember you talking about that Sunny. A while back, I looked up if there were any threads on bac at soberrecovery.com. There were a couple, and they were shut down fast because they were considered to be promoting drugs.

Congrats on your first year. You are one of the ones I can look up to as someone for whom it absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, worked the way that I want it to work! :l


If AA were really open to actual facts they would have updated their message and methods long ago.

Yes. When you really think about the bunk they still put out there, it's shocking. But, to change the sacred writ would be to abandon the very thesis of AA. It's a shame.

It was great to see your post this morning! I've missed you. :l

[TracyA]

Side effects of AA

bleep;1078817 wrote: Quite simply, because it works. I think it's more practical rather than evangelic.

And I realize my post made it seem like I was focusing on you with evangelism. I was not - just the general idea of an overly zealous, "one-size-fits-all" approach. Had I gone to my NP and presented baclofen as a cure for all mental illness, she never would have prescribed it to me because at that point, she would have been questioning my judgment (and possibly my sanity). I think baclofen will have a niche for people who are able use it and maintain their employment. We have a poster here right now who walked away from her job because the SE's were preventing her from being able to do her job (gotta admire the pluck and mettle there). Anyone in the medical field, people who drive for a living or operate heavy equipment, etc., and who need to stay steadily employed, will have a very hard time with this protocol.

[AllyB]

Side effects of AA

Booktree;1078913 wrote: Perhaps it is not the medication for me in the long run, but I do think it has helped, and I have been able to be AF since I started taking it (about a month and a half ago). I still have not entirely broken free of the clutches of AA and still go to one meeting a week (out of guilt? fear because I swallowed their line that if I leave and never come back I will drink and die? for a bit of social support because otherwise I'm a total loner? don't know)...

If you want to talk more about this side of things with people who've had similar experiences the stinkin-thinkin community pages might be worth a look. They have a forum similar to this one and online chat sessions. The "what basic needs" thread in the forum might be a good place to start. I found them to be a lifeline when AA/al-anon was having a very negative effect on my life. (The poster Longshot who posted about his bad experiences in AA is my husband.)

Stinkin' Thinkin' Community | Home

[TracyA]

Side effects of AA

Booktree;1078913 wrote: Like Sunny, I too had complete faith in the program, spent 7 months of my life this past year and well over $100,000 on one of the country's top 12-step oriented treatment centers that was nothing more than an indoctrination camp for AA and NA, only to find out the whole thing is a fraud and nothing more than a holding pen, as most of the clients went on to relapse (including me) after leaving..

This is very like my experience. The first treatment center was absolutely 12-steps, from start to finish, and the majority of the time we were either talking about the steps or working the steps. Craziness.

And then to be told that I wasn't "working the program" hard enough, sincerely enough, diligently enough, etc... That my spiritual life must have been bankrupt, that I must be holding onto resentments, must be flawed in some profound way, etc...

It is crazy-making! I really fell in love with AA in the beginning, and really had full faith that it would work. I did everything they told me to do. Everything. When I could not stop drinking, I was just devastated. And then to have to announce it again and again, and be told "you are powerless" is going from devastation to . . . I don't even have the words. It's just a horrible program. I'm still surprised that people can defend it with such zeal."

Here's a funny story. I had a sponsor who I could connect with in a lot of ways. S, as I shall call her here, had a doctorate in philosophy (and I did point out to her the logical fallacies in the Big Book, which she conceded). Her interest in me was a bit bizarre - like she wanted a protege and I was supposed to be a mini-S. She was a lovely person, but one of those fortunate silver spoon types who had had everything in life handed to her on a silver platter. She had asked to join my daughter and I on a trip we had planned to Costa Rica. A couple months later, I told her that we couldn't work together anymore, and she had a major meltdown, went crying to her sponsor, and on and on. She already had purchased the airline tickets and package and decided to go anyway. But she could not let go of trying to be the guru. We were walking together down a garden path and I was pointing out the different plants and trees. She said that she never realized that I had interest in such things. Our relationship was a year and half old at that point, and she never knew this very fundamental fact about me? At any rate, my daughter and I quite enjoyed the cocktails in Costa Rica, but she would follow us around doing silly things, like yelling to the bartender, "Are there any alcohol-free beverages here?" Eventually, she gave up, but on the plane ride home, she sat in the aisle across from ours. My daughter and I ordered tomato juice. When S placed her order, she - again yelling - said, "I'll have what they're having." I'm pretty sure she was hoping we were having bloody marys or something, because her face really dropped when she tasted only tomato juice.

Edited to add: I talked to S's sponsor about the whole thing and this what she said: "S is a latent lesbian. She fell in love with you." And so ended my last attempt at AA.

[Booktree]

Side effects of AA

AllyB;1079240 wrote: If you want to talk more about this side of things with people who've had similar experiences the stinkin-thinkin community pages might be worth a look.

Thanks Ally! I love the Stinkin-Thinkin community, and when I got out of treatment and back online, googling like crazy to find out if anyone else in the world was having problems with AA, etc., I found their site and posted there for support and read everything I could on there. A very refreshing eye-opener! Then I found MWO (listed on a sidebar of their site) and came over here to give Baclofen a try and haven't posted on Stinkin Thinkin since then... but I will definitely check it out again. I didn't know they have online chat sessions. I agree they are a lifeline -- providing a kind of mental detox from getting the cultish stuff out of one's head.

[Booktree]

Side effects of AA

TracyA;1079242 wrote: . Here's a funny story. I had a sponsor who I could connect with in a lot of ways. S, as I shall call her here, had a doctorate in philosophy (and I did point out to her the logical fallacies in the Big Book, which she conceded). Her interest in me was a bit bizarre - like she wanted a protege and I was supposed to be a mini-S.

That is bizarre that she followed you all the way to Costa Rica! You'd think (I don't know, maybe it's just me) that someone with a doctorate in Philosophy might be a bit more turned off by AA's complete lack of logic and intellectual rigor...? Sounds like she did have an unhealthy degree of attachment to you.

I've never had a sponsor glom onto me like that, but they certainly have tried to control me in ways that felt very intrusive. Telling me to break relationships off, move out of my living situations, etc. And that whole thing about needing to call them every day to report on how I was doing, reporting all the minutia of my mundane existence so they could hand-hold and guide me through basic decision-making... No thank you!

[Otter]

Side effects of AA

I was having second thoughts about starting it. After reading Tips thread about not bashing AA I thought I was being a bit of a jerk. I do think it is an important topic. I just did not want to detract from the good vibes of the forum by encouraging a divisive debate. It does seem though that the general feeling about AA is the same.

I suppose this forum is the "new AA", and you don't have to leave the house.

I wonder if there is an award for best forums because MWO meds threads should win it.

[Otter]

Side effects of AA

AllyB;1078776 wrote: Alcoholism isn't cancer so it can't accurately be compared to it. Yes many people die of alcohol dependency related deaths but most people do eventually recover from it, eventually.

Alcoholism (technically alcohol dependence syndrome) is often caused by people self-medicating undiagnosed mental illness, NAMI (the National Association for Mental Illness in the States) estimates that 37% of alcohol addicts and 53% of illegal drug addicts have at least one mental illness. Baclofen won't fix this, if the alcohol abuse has been sufficient to cause damage to the GABA(b) receptors baclofen can take care of the effects of that damage but it won't do a jot to fix the cause. It won't treat bipolarism, schizophrenia, severe bipolarism. It won't take care of emotional problems which may well require counselling. And sometimes other treatments, ones with less side-effects will work just fine.

Baclofen is not for everyone and it does have side-effects for most people. For one it's a Category C drug (as it's been shown to be teratogenic in animal studies), it's not safe for use in pregnancy and is linked to birth defects like undeveloped heart walls. Plenty of women develop alcoholism and try to treat it before starting families. If they rely on baclofen they should not be getting pregnant. For any woman who hopes to have children in the future baclofen should be the last thing she tries and when she does try it she will be doing so with a necessity of coming off it before deciding to try to conceive. That's huge.

I hear what you are saying about pregnancy. I am not saying that everyone must take Baclofen to stop drinking.

I do disagree absolutely with what you are saying about mental illness. Yes, your figures are right but the conclusion is wrong. Baclofen does address the underlying issues that cause alcoholic craving. Craving is part of a spectrum of conditions which flow from a deficiency in the amygdala. Autism benefits from Baclofen and a new form of Baclofen, Arbaclofen, is being developed as we speak and being used by some people already. Baclofen is not just for alcoholism. It is already widely used for a wide range of neurlogical issues. It is just that no one realized its full potential and how it actually worked until Ameisen came along. It is a molecule which acts on a part of the brain so it does do the things you say it doesn't.

Indeed, it has cleared up all of the conditions which you mention, except schizophrenia, all of which my wife has been diagnosed with and all of which relate to the amygdala.

I think you have not read the posts here on autism and other illnesses. Some of the articles about this are on the Home - Baclofen UK site. The new Baclofen Forum was set up to investigate and discuss this aspect of Baclofen. The theory of the moderators of that forum is that Baclofen is a treatment, not just for all addiction, but for all mental illness.

So, how is that for a rebuttal!

[c0ffee]

Side effects of AA

Booktree;1079247 wrote: I've never had a sponsor glom onto me like that, but they certainly have tried to control me in ways that felt very intrusive. Telling me to break relationships off, move out of my living situations, etc. And that whole thing about needing to call them every day to report on how I was doing, reporting all the minutia of my mundane existence so they could hand-hold and guide me through basic decision-making... No thank you!

I had a sponsor tell me to break up with my girlfriend who is my saviour, break my lease, move out of my apartment and move into a 3/4 house, quit my job and not work or think about another relationship for at least a year. He called me up all the damn time asking me things like 'did you make your bed this morning'? Needless to say, I severed that relationship really fast and never got another sponsor ever again. I wish I had told him to fuck off before I stopped calling him but, whatever... Some people have really good experiences and some have really bad ones.