Side effects of AA

[Bruunhilde]

Side effects of AA

bleep;1080921 wrote: Otter, to echo other's thoughts: great thread.

I have to chime in on one thing though - you live in Bristol, and you haven't heard of Banksy?? :wow: Do yourself a favour - do a search online of Banksy artwork in the area, and go for a drive, the man is brilliant!

He just struck So Cal, I hadn't heard of him before but very impressed. There's a graffiti wall in San Diego that gives street artists a place to legally show off their art. When I saw it all I could think was - could I hire one of these guys to do that wall on my house I think needs a little something?

[bleep]

Side effects of AA

They still don't know who is, and he's been doing it for about 20 years AFAIK. The police would love to catch him, but he's such an institution now that they probably wouldn't do anything.

Great to hear he's popped over, be prepared for some very thought provoking graffiti!

End of derail.

[Murphyx]

Side effects of AA

Continuing the derail. I think Otter was referring to not having heard of Banksy at that time. Yeah he's a great artist but he's totally up himself these days.

Oh and his identity is known, his real name is Robert Banks.

Derail over...again.

[spacebebe01]

Side effects of AA

I had to jump in on this thread because if has got me feeling angry and my head is messing up, that is why I had to stop going to AA, I was in a constant state of anger, conflict, head messed up, anxiety, you name it, I kept on going back to AA because I thought there was no where else to go, I was contantly being told that AA didnt work because I didnt want to stop drinking! why would I have gone for years on end then, I CAN SAY THAT AA NEARLY KILLED ME BECAUSE THAT IS MY TRUTH. I come to MWO and now attend SMART meetings because I need help and support to stay AF and stay alive. AA is neither the only way, or a friendly self-help group of people simply wanting to help people stop drinking.

Thanks to MWO, SMART, and the massive information now available to me on-line I now have hope for my future, am optimistic in my view to life and for the first time ever feel able to be honest when I need to reach out to others.

[PbarE]

Side effects of AA

spacebebe01;1081058 wrote: I had to jump in on this thread because if has got me feeling angry and my head is messing up, that is why I had to stop going to AA, I was in a constant state of anger, conflict, head messed up, anxiety, you name it, I kept on going back to AA because I thought there was no where else to go, I was contantly being told that AA didnt work because I didnt want to stop drinking! why would I have gone for years on end then, I CAN SAY THAT AA NEARLY KILLED ME BECAUSE THAT IS MY TRUTH. I come to MWO and now attend SMART meetings because I need help and support to stay AF and stay alive. AA is neither the only way, or a friendly self-help group of people simply wanting to help people stop drinking.

Thanks to MWO, SMART, and the massive information now available to me on-line I now have hope for my future, am optimistic in my view to life and for the first time ever feel able to be honest when I need to reach out to others.

I can empathize with you. I have had a love/hate relationship with AA since the late 80's. Unfortunately, more and more people have had experiences like yours. Luckily, you have taken the bull by the horns and found a path that works for you.

The AA of today, and the original AA of the 1930's and 1940's, are vastly different. When the Big Book was written in 1939, there were only a hundred members, all of whom were desperate alkies who had literally drank their lives away (i.e. "low bottom drunks). The program and the literature are still geared towards alcoholics of this type.

AA has not changed since its birth, while the makeup its membership has continuously evolved. Until this is addressed, AA is going to continue to alienate people, just like in your case. This is one of the major "side effects" of AA.

[TracyA]

Side effects of AA

Otter;1080873 wrote: The distinction which you and AA draw between concepts of "support" and protecting someone from the consequences of their actions is something which I don't find useful.
I think it would be helpful to separate what is AA traditional doctrine regarding "support" and what comes from other realms. Following is the official, conference-approved AA ideas on that (taken from "To the Wives," the article in the Big Book that addresses the spouse:

* * *

Our next thought is that you should never tell him what he must do about his drinking. If he gets the idea that you are a nag or a killjoy, your chance of accomplishing anything useful may be zero . . . This may lead to lonely evenings for you. He may seek someone else to console him ? not always another man.

Some of the snags you will encounter are irritation, hurt feelings, and resentments. Your husband will sometimes be unreasonable and you will want to criticize . . . These family dissensions are very dangerous, especially to your husband. Often you must carry the burden of avoiding them or keeping them under control. Never forget that resentment is a deadly hazard to an alcoholic.

Try not to condemn your alcoholic husband no matter what he says or does.

Do not set your heart on reforming your husband.

. . . you must be on guard to not embarrass or harm your husband.

Make him feel absolutely free to come and go as he likes. This is important.

Your husband may come to appreciate your reasonableness and patience.

(This is from "The Family Afterward Here is a case in point: One of our friends is a heavy smoker and coffee drinker. There was no doubt he over- indulged. Seeing this, and meaning to be helpful, his wife commenced to admonish him about it. He admitted he was overdosing these things, but frankly said that he was not ready to stop. His wife is one of those persons who really feels there is something rather sinful about these commodities, so she nagged, and her intolerance finally threw him into a fit of anger. He got drunk . . . She sees she was wrong to make a burning issue out of such a matter when his more serious ailments were being rapidly cured.

* * * *

That is AA. Gruesome, isn't it?

The other ideas of what co-dependence is and what it does comes from pop-psychology, treatment centers and treatment center ideas. I think, and someone will correct me if I am wrong, that it was focused on helping the SO of an addict create an identity outside of that relationship. It was not so much about making the addict get better so much as stopping trying to controlling the situation using less than direct means. It is the antithesis of official AA word on the subject.

What you can do if someone is in an alcoholic cycle, if you control the alcohol, is to taper the alcoholic down, stop them from drinking too heavily and even change the drink to a weaker drink. With Baclofen you can then bring the cycle to an end safely.

The control issues that would already have to be in place in such a relationship are pretty extreme. Taking not only physical, but also physiological, control over another adult is a bit beyond my ability to comprehend. It does not fit my understanding of "enabling." But it does not fit my definitions of love or compassion either.

Just to let folks know, the whole home detox-on-bac has not worked out well for some people who have attempted it (C0ffee most recently). The MWO word on detox is this: Please seek professional care if you are experiencing alcohol withdrawal symptoms.

That really is the best advice.

[Cinders]

Side effects of AA

Just to let folks know, the whole home detox-on-bac has not worked out well for some people who have attempted it (C0ffee most recently). The MWO word on detox is this: Please seek professional care if you are experiencing alcohol withdrawal symptoms.

That really is the best advice.

We tend to forget that we can die from strokes, heart attacks or seizures if our withdrawals are bad. If you take your blood pressure while detoxing, you will be surprised how high it can get.

Agreed, Tracy, that really is the best advice.

Cindi

[Kimberley]

Side effects of AA

PbarE;1081151 wrote: When the Big Book was written in 1939, there were only a hundred members, all of whom were desperate alkies who had literally drank their lives away (i.e. "low bottom drunks). The program and the literature are still geared towards alcoholics of this type.

AA has not changed since its birth, while the makeup its membership has continuously evolved. Until this is addressed, AA is going to continue to alienate people, just like in your case.
PBarE this is a very interesting point and may well be why certain people don't 'get it' so to speak - it is maybe not for them to 'get'. i am only speculating, but I believe AA will work for me because I am exactly the person the book talks about.

For example there are people on MWO who have success with modding - I tried it but having tried it can not even comprehend how anyone manages to do it. I am a true alcoholic, a hardcore alkie, whatever words one mught choose to express it. I can NOT stop once I start and it has made my life completely unmanageable - I DO have the gift of desperation as I have tried everything else: relapse prevention, counselling, groups, meds, including antabuse, loads of stuff. Nothing else has worked and so far AA is. AA is for people like me.

We have one member locally who goes to AA because she only drinks one glass of wine a night, but can't stop doing it. Her choice, but if I had that kind of problem I think I'd be doing something else other than AA and i have heard (shock, horror) some other members think the same...

This brings us onto:

TracyA;1081219 wrote: I think it would be helpful to separate what is AA traditional doctrine regarding "support" and what comes from other realms. Following is the official, conference-approved AA ideas on that (taken from "To the Wives," the article in the Big Book that addresses the spouse:

* * * *

That is AA. Gruesome, isn't it?

I was actually talking to an AA friend about this yesterday. Of course based on the time it was written AA official literature is regarded by most of the members as old-fashioned and hopelessly out-of-date, even laughably so. No-one seriously looks at this nowadays and takes it verbatim.

The very notion that there is a 'To the wives' section is recognised for what it is - old-fashioned and from another time. Of course now the 'wives' are much more likely to suffer from the problem themselves, and admit to it more readily than before, because society has changed. Does this mean I am kicked out of AA for being female? No, of course not.

My friend was saying it should be updated. I don't know about that. Do we censor and update great literature or works of art or anything else of value because it is old-fashioned in its isms. No. It is what it is. It might be useful to update it, but I feel that, like so much stuff about AA, most people have the good sense to take from AA what is useful and interpret the rest in a way that IS useful or relevant to them.

I think one thing that you have failed to address Tracy, even though I posted about it based on my experience in the UK waaaay back in this thread, is that most of the groups and members take a common sense approach to AA and the programme. It is NOT as rigid as many people think. Some of you have had bad experiences with certain sponsors or groups, but these sorts of instances are thankfully few and far between from what I have heard, and as common as bad experiences and people in any other treatment, be it with counsellors, groups or whatever.

I can not speak for the situation in any other part of the world, but in London I am lucky to be able to access meetings which are largely run and populated by warm, accepting, non-dogmatic people who have enough common sense to differentiate and practice discernment regarding the programme.

Although I understand your fundamental concern is the place of AA within the structure of treatments as mandatory (unlike in the UK), is the approach to following the programme itself really as different from that seemingly used in the UK? If so, why??

As an addendum, I would just like to make clear that I am not speaking for AA or on behalf of it or anything. Personally it just annoys me when things are maligned or misrepresented if I have experience directly to the contrary - whatever it may be in regard to. People, places, treatment, books, faiths and practices of all kinds. I could go on and on about this, but I already have...:H

K x

[missyabby1]

Side effects of AA

Tracy, as far as I can see, we all arrive at this forum with the hope of getting some help to get sober. I was amazed to see you have been around since 2006. Is that really you?

It truly spun me out to see how long you have been here.

Are you sober? Please tell me that after 5 years you are. Thats all I came here for, to give me help in how to be sober. I truly don't want to know your views on anything else, just how you got and stayed sober. I really just want to know how you have achieved sobriety?? End of story.

My family and my grandchildren just want me to be a sober loving straight person...able to be here for them, not sitting in front of a computer banging on about AA or anything else.

After five years can you just please give me some advice as to how to achieve sobriety?

[TracyA]

Side effects of AA

Kimberley;1081252 wrote:
I was actually talking to an AA friend about this yesterday. Of course based on the time it was written AA official literature is regarded by most of the members as old-fashioned and hopelessly out-of-date, even laughably so.
What makes it most laughable is that the chapter was written by the founder of AA (not a wife).

The very notion that there is a 'To the wives' section is recognised for what it is - old-fashioned and from another time.
It should be recognized for what it really

is.

My friend was saying it should be updated. I don't know about that. Do we censor and update great literature or works of art or anything else of value because it is old-fashioned in its isms. No. It is what it is.
Great literature? I suppose that is in the eyes of the beholder. For a book upon which the globally-dominant treatment standard is based, of course it should be "updated."

It might be useful to update it, but I feel that, like so much stuff about AA, most people have the good sense to take from AA what is useful and interpret the rest in a way that IS useful or relevant to them.

Yes, people tend to do that with religion in general.

I think one thing that you have failed to address Tracy, even though I posted about it based on my experience in the UK waaaay back in this thread, is that most of the groups and members take a common sense approach to AA and the programme. It is NOT as rigid as many people think. Some of you have had bad experiences with certain sponsors or groups, but these sorts of instances are thankfully few and far between from what I have heard, and as common as bad experiences and people in any other treatment, be it with counsellors, groups or whatever.

No, that simply is not true. If you look at the websites where people go to recover from AA, it's obviously a very common phenomenon. Very obviously not few and far between. It seems quite evident to me that it's more the norm than not.

Although I understand your fundamental concern is the place of AA within the structure of treatments as mandatory (unlike in the UK), is the approach to following the programme itself really as different from that seemingly used in the UK?

If "the program" in the UK is not shame-based religiosity, then, yes, it is very different. Do meetings in the UK begin with reading, "Rarely have we seen a person fail . . . " and end with "The Lord's Prayer"? If so, then it is the same program.

Personally it just annoys me when things are maligned or misrepresented if I have experience directly to the contrary - whatever it may be in regard to.

I misrepresented nothing and used only AA-conference approved words. If their own conference-approved words malign AA, that's not my fault.

[TracyA]

Side effects of AA

missyabby1;1081268 wrote: Tracy, as far as I can see, we all arrive at this forum with the hope of getting some help to get sober. I was amazed to see you have been around since 2006. Is that really you?
No, I stole this account and picked the profile pic up off the net somewhere.

It truly spun me out to see how long you have been here.

Are you sober? Please tell me that after 5 years you are.
Sorry to disappoint. I began in '06 with the MWO program. I haven't been drunk in weeks though, and that's pretty dang decent start, I think.

Thats all I came here for, to give me help in how to be sober.

I truly hope you find it.

My family and my grandchildren just want me to be a sober loving straight person...able to be here for them, not sitting in front of a computer banging on about AA or anything else.

And yet, your sitting in front of a computer banging on . . . ? I'm a grandma too. My grandson's pic graces my sig line.

After five years can you just please give me some advice as to how to achieve sobriety?

Never stop stopping.

[Kimberley]

Side effects of AA

TracyA;1081276 wrote: If "the program" in the UK is not shame-based religiosity, then, yes, it is very different. Do meetings in the UK begin with reading, "Rarely have we seen a person fail . . . " and end with "The Lord's Prayer"? If so, then it is the same program.

No they don't begin nor end in that way. I have never been to a meeting where they read the Lords Prayer. The meetings begin with the Preamble:

"Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism.

The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership; we are selfsupporting through our own contributions. A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."

They all close with the Serenity Prayer, which is started by the chair who says some version of 'Please join me in the serenity prayer, using the word 'god' as you do /or don't/ or come to understand him...'.

K x

[Guest]

Side effects of AA

Tracy

I've had a similar experience in the UK too. The meetings do start with the usual preamble, but end with the serenity prayer and not the lords. The serenity prayer is one I've always found beautiful and drawn too even though I'm non-religious. It has a lot of meaning for me, as well as life in general even if I don't believe in God.

Regards the meetings themselves, yes you get the old-school sticklers but I've seen a lot of people challenge the old rules. I've sat in meetings were the topic of discussion have been things such as the 12 month rule for not doing anything 'major', starting relationships in new found sobriety, supportive or enabling partners. Many members have come up with their own takes on this, based on their own personal experiences as well as observations over the years in the groups. Many of the conclusions were contrary to main-stream AA teaching. I actually found a lot of AAers use the guidelines in a very flexible manner.

I myself was quite surprised, as well as refreshed that this sort of discussion does go on because I had thought like you do that AA was an institution that wouldn't go against the grain. It seems quite a lot goes on under the surface.

[TracyA]

Side effects of AA

From this point on, I will ignore any further posts which seek to debate the goodness of AA. No one is going to change my mind. If AA is working for some people, I have no desire to change their minds. That does not mean that I will stop posting my own experience, opinions and ideas and what I have learned after having done extensive research on AA. It simply means that I will not engage people who wish to discuss anything except "side effects" - unwanted consequences - of AA. I've done my share of debating AA'rs here. It is a waste of my MWO time.

Carry on.

[PbarE]

Side effects of AA

Kimberley;1081285 wrote: No they don't begin nor end in that way. I have never been to a meeting where they read the Lords Prayer. The meetings begin with the Preamble:

"Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism.

The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership; we are selfsupporting through our own contributions. A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."

They all close with the Serenity Prayer, which is started by the chair who says some version of 'Please join me in the serenity prayer, using the word 'god' as you do /or don't/ or come to understand him...'.

K x

That's the way we do it in my part of the world too.