Side effects of AA

[Greg]

Side effects of AA

Supercrew;1228466 wrote: If somewhere deep in your subconscious you still derive pleasure from drinking and you still romanticize the idea of drinking, the prescription drugs, and the programs of AA, and smart and RR probably won't stick to long if you don't find some sort of happiness in sobriety before that little idea that you believe is pleasure in a bottle will take you back to putting the bottle to your lips once more.

This is a "place" I have been stuck in for a long time now, and have seen several alcoholic friends also stuck in. Each of us came to realise that alcohol was causing more pain than pleasure, but at the same time we have been unable to let go of it permanently. At times, it still holds an appeal, despite knowing the consequences. I even gave it up for about 19 months but clung on to cannabis as a substitute night-time high! Meanwhile my friends have been on and off alcohol too, usually via detoxes and white knuckling.

Quitting and staying off alcohol without any drugs is the ideal situation, and I would advise anyone who can do this to do it. I would do it myself if I could stick it out, and I have indeed tried total abstinence (no drugs, not even Antabuse) for various lengths of time, although the longest was only a few weeks. Using baclofen, Antabuse, and other drugs is, to me, the lesser of two evils for those who can't yet cling to total abstinence, a harm minimization method if you like.

I definitely think that other (psychological) steps are needed by most alcoholics, and a happy life without alcohol needs to be visualized and believed in. This is where I think most dependent people trip up, especially those who have spent a lifetime relying on a substance to feel happier or to just avoid reality. Once the substance is gone and the acute withdrawals are over, a person can feel empty and lost, and their emotional and life difficulties can seem overwhelming. I know that no drug can fix these issues, and this is why I am also doing my best to change my life beyond just addressing the drinking itself. I have found AA somewhat helpful with this, and I know a few who have managed to get sober and stay sober long-term using AA alone (apart from an initial detox I mean).

Anyway I'm not sure if I grasped your post 100 percent clearly, but thanks for a different viewpoint on things.

[Pronoia2012]

Side effects of AA

My goal is ... indifference. I want a slip to not be "oh no, a slip! I lost my sober birthday!" I want it to be "wow, where's the addiction in this?" And then forget it.
But the loneliness, it closes in on you after work, after zumba, after Target closes. You have AA or the neighborhood bar. Both of which fetishize AL.

[Doggygirl]

Side effects of AA

The evidence of altered brain chemistry related to substance abuse is really undeniable. Modern technology shows that clearly. To the degree that medications help correct this, bravo. Much research is going on in this area from what I understand.

There are other things besides meds that alter brain chemistry. I think that's where the other MWO tools come into play - exercise, diet, etc. And "talk therapy."

Studies have shown that formal treatment (I'm not sure what formal treatment was evaluated here) plus follow up AA participation is more effective than treatment alone, or AA participation alone. I believe this was based on abstinence as the goal, and abstinence at 1 year as the criteria.

There is a lot of good information on the NIAAA and NIDA web sites linking to studies, etc. I also like the youtubes by Nora Volkow who is heading up a lot of the brain related research.

Just interesting stuff to think about and read/view IMO.

DG

[Cassander]

Side effects of AA

Doggygirl;1228107 wrote: Cassander, AA is not "treatment." AA is a support group of fellow problem drinkers. There are over 2 million members, so many different philosophies and experiences are represented with respect to old ways and new ways.

Sadly, the medical community did not know what to do with alcohol dependent people, so unfortunately "treatment" became "go to 90 meetings in 90 days and if you don't, you are in denial."

Blaming AA for bad medical treatment is definitely like blaming the patient for the doctor's mistakes.

Just my humble opinion - AA has not helped everyone recover just like MWO has not, Baclofen has not, Rational Recovery has not, 28 days inpatient has not, etc. etc. But it HAS helped many people - I am one of them. I can't speak for every AA group - only the ones I actively participate in. There is nothing going on in those groups that would preclude someone from incorporating other treatment modalities (counseling, meds, etc.) along with participation in AA.

That is my experience with it anyway.

Respectfully,

DG

DG

Let's not get lost in the semantics.. You and I agree that AA is not a doctor or a medicine. You and I agree that AA does not "treat" alcoholism "medically".

However, when you go to your GP and you say, "Doc, I'm drinking too much, I'm gonna lose my job and if I do my wife says she's going to leave me, and if she does I think I'll kill myself...Doc, can you treat me?"

All too often, the doc says, "Well, that's just terrible. I recommend that you get that willpower going and quit drinking before you lose your job, and your wife and your life." Then you say, "but Doc, I've tried willpower...I can quit for a few days or a week but it always comes back at me. Isn't there some treatment?"

And the doc says, "well yes, the best treatment we have is called Alcoholics Anonymous. Here's a list of some meetings. Go find one. You go there 90 times in 90 days and work the program and you'll quit drinking. Thats the best treatment there is. Good luck!" He might quietly add sotto voce, "By the way, don't be coming back around here you hopeless loser drunk. I certainly can't help you if you can't help yourself".

All too often, that's what the GP serves up. Which is a shame at a time where there are three FDA approved compounds available and a fourth, baclofen, being used off-label with considerable success. Together with a plethora of anti-anxiety medicines and anti-depressants, as well as nutritionals and holistic medicines, to deal with co-morbidities.

So maybe AA isn't "treatment", but when you go to a doc and say I've got a problem and he says go to AA you'll get better, it sounds an awful lot like the recommended "treatment" to me.

[Supercrew]

Side effects of AA

Greg;1228500 wrote: This is a "place" I have been stuck in for a long time now, and have seen several alcoholic friends also stuck in. Each of us came to realise that alcohol was causing more pain than pleasure, but at the same time we have been unable to let go of it permanently. At times, it still holds an appeal, despite knowing the consequences. I even gave it up for about 19 months but clung on to cannabis as a substitute night-time high! Meanwhile my friends have been on and off alcohol too, usually via detoxes and white knuckling.

Quitting and staying off alcohol without any drugs is the ideal situation, and I would advise anyone who can do this to do it. I would do it myself if I could stick it out, and I have indeed tried total abstinence (no drugs, not even Antabuse) for various lengths of time, although the longest was only a few weeks. Using baclofen, Antabuse, and other drugs is, to me, the lesser of two evils for those who can't yet cling to total abstinence, a harm minimization method if you like.

I definitely think that other (psychological) steps are needed by most alcoholics, and a happy life without alcohol needs to be visualized and believed in. This is where I think most dependent people trip up, especially those who have spent a lifetime relying on a substance to feel happier or to just avoid reality. Once the substance is gone and the acute withdrawals are over, a person can feel empty and lost, and their emotional and life difficulties can seem overwhelming. I know that no drug can fix these issues, and this is why I am also doing my best to change my life beyond just addressing the drinking itself. I have found AA somewhat helpful with this, and I know a few who have managed to get sober and stay sober long-term using AA alone (apart from an initial detox I mean).

Anyway I'm not sure if I grasped your post 100 percent clearly, but thanks for a different viewpoint on things.

Greg you grasped it perfectly! And I was stuck where you and others were for a very very long time. I finally got to the point where drinking will never be an option, and I am happy with the decision. You can get over that final hump too...it took me over 10 years.

[Supercrew]

Side effects of AA

Cassander;1228639 wrote: DG

Let's not get lost in the semantics.. You and I agree that AA is not a doctor or a medicine. You and I agree that AA does not "treat" alcoholism "medically".

However, when you go to your GP and you say, "Doc, I'm drinking too much, I'm gonna lose my job and if I do my wife says she's going to leave me, and if she does I think I'll kill myself...Doc, can you treat me?"

All too often, the doc says, "Well, that's just terrible. I recommend that you get that willpower going and quit drinking before you lose your job, and your wife and your life." Then you say, "but Doc, I've tried willpower...I can quit for a few days or a week but it always comes back at me. Isn't there some treatment?"

And the doc says, "well yes, the best treatment we have is called Alcoholics Anonymous. Here's a list of some meetings. Go find one. You go there 90 times in 90 days and work the program and you'll quit drinking. Thats the best treatment there is. Good luck!" He might quietly add sotto voce, "By the way, don't be coming back around here you hopeless loser drunk. I certainly can't help you if you can't help yourself".

All too often, that's what the GP serves up. Which is a shame at a time where there are three FDA approved compounds available and a fourth, baclofen, being used off-label with considerable success. Together with a plethora of anti-anxiety medicines and anti-depressants, as well as nutritionals and holistic medicines, to deal with co-morbidities.

So maybe AA isn't "treatment", but when you go to a doc and say I've got a problem and he says go to AA you'll get better, it sounds an awful lot like the recommended "treatment" to me.

The problem with most doctors is even if they know it is a brain chemical problem, if they haven't been addicted to something they still have a hard time not blaming it on will power, and AA is what they have been told will work....even if they don't know what the program is about. Most people don't know that the program of AA hasn't changed since the 1930's and that it is a faith based program.

[swaggie]

Side effects of AA

The last couple of posts rang true to me today. I visited a doc today in Melbourne Australia and told him that I was 3 weeks AF and wanted Naltrexone which I had had prescribed for me 10 years ago to assist with cravings. I was given a prescription to use "willpower". When pushed he said he couldnt prescribe Nal because of my blood pressure. (I cant find any contraindications - only some suggestion that LDN for HIV actually reduces BP)

I digress

Ive tried AA. About 6 months. I know its not for me. Meetings in drafty church halls filled by smokers. People selling them self short by believing that they are powerless. People pretending to believe that a greater power they don't believe in will guide and save them. The father of my step son is an AA zealot - he isnt interested in any research, he's absorbed the whole thing, and set his life's work to protect the AA faith. Our stupid government allows him to lecture schools, jails and government departments spreading their unscientific message. Its a cult by any reasonable measure.

Some people need fellowship and support. I think the ideal would be from people who are not afflicted, but I can understand that by the time that you are drinking 100+ units a week you may find that only other drunks are happy to accept you, perhaps because you make them look better. If AA was recognized as a support system rather than a treatment option then I'd be a little less critical.

Swaggie

[Doggygirl]

Side effects of AA

Cassander;1228639 wrote: DG

Let's not get lost in the semantics.. You and I agree that AA is not a doctor or a medicine. You and I agree that AA does not "treat" alcoholism "medically".

That is not semantics. That is fact. There is a huge difference between a free self help group and professional treatment. And as an AA member, I have absolutely no control over what doctors are recommending to their patients.

DG

[Cassander]

Side effects of AA

Doggygirl;1229273 wrote: That is not semantics. That is fact. There is a huge difference between a free self help group and professional treatment. And as an AA member, I have absolutely no control over what doctors are recommending to their patients.

DG

Doggy

With all due respect, I think it is semantics. When our son began to drink too much he went to see his GP, his gastroenterologist, a total of three psychiatrists and several licensed alcohol counselors for help. At the recommendation of one psychiatrist, he spent one month in a respected rehab facility (price: $30,000, not exactly free) which had MDs on staff. The only real "treatment" recommended by any of them and by all of them was abstention and AA. It was all geared towards AA. At the suggestion of the rehab center he went to a halfway house for one month -- totally geared toward AA.

Finally we found Dr L and the only doctor treating him now is Dr L. Dr L is not only treating his cravings with baclofen but also helping him medically with his pre-existing anxiety and depression, something none of the other doctors or rehab center did. Now you may be aware of enlightened physicians and addiction specialists and rehab centers who actually medically treat alcoholics in your part of the world, but I can assure you we could find none in ours. The universally recommended "treatment" (although somewhat disguised) boiled down to AA.

You may call AA "support" and not "treatment" all you like. What my son and I were and are looking for is treatment that works. That is why we are so interested in medications such as baclofen.


Respectfully,

Cassander

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Side effects of AA

Let's not forget, while we're discussing non-treatment for the chemical imbalance that is absolute fact based on sound medical research for decades, the recommendation of CBT.

This isn't just about AA and this thread is anathema to productive discussion if one should happen to read it from the beginning. It is tainted. Sick. Profoundly disturbing.

A discussion about what does not treat the fundamental chemical imbalance has nothing to do with one option, and everything to do with the sorry state of treatment for this disease. Not Dis-Ease. Disease.

Peace out.

[Bruunhilde]

Side effects of AA

Supercrew;1228668 wrote: Greg you grasped it perfectly! And I was stuck where you and others were for a very very long time. I finally got to the point where drinking will never be an option, and I am happy with the decision. You can get over that final hump too...it took me over 10 years.

This is exactly what the Jason Vale and Allen Carr books teach you, not to romanticize alcohol and how to think differently about it so that you can be free instead of enslaved. Have you guys read either? Super, sounds like you got there on your own or you read them.

[Doggygirl]

Side effects of AA

Cassander;1229295 wrote: Doggy

With all due respect, I think it is semantics. When our son began to drink too much he went to see his GP, his gastroenterologist, a total of three psychiatrists and several licensed alcohol counselors for help. At the recommendation of one psychiatrist, he spent one month in a respected rehab facility (price: $30,000, not exactly free) which had MDs on staff. The only real "treatment" recommended by any of them and by all of them was abstention and AA. It was all geared towards AA. At the suggestion of the rehab center he went to a halfway house for one month -- totally geared toward AA.

Finally we found Dr L and the only doctor treating him now is Dr L. Dr L is not only treating his cravings with baclofen but also helping him medically with his pre-existing anxiety and depression, something none of the other doctors or rehab center did. Now you may be aware of enlightened physicians and addiction specialists and rehab centers who actually medically treat alcoholics in your part of the world, but I can assure you we could find none in ours. The universally recommended "treatment" (although somewhat disguised) boiled down to AA.

You may call AA "support" and not "treatment" all you like. What my son and I were and are looking for is treatment that works. That is why we are so interested in medications such as baclofen.


Respectfully,

Cassander

Cassander, with all due respect, I think what you highlight is a problem with TREATMENT. AA is not run by professionals, and is NOT TREATMENT. It is a SELF HELP GROUP guided by NON PROFESSIONAL ALCOHOLICS (and addicts too) one helping the other.

I think you have every right to be angry at the treatment centers where you paid very good money and all you got was a referral to AA. AA is free. You don't need to spend $30,000 to go there. That's a shame, but IMO is not a problem with AA, it's a problem with treatment.

That world is changing FWIW. Evidence based TREATMENT is being required more and more. It wont' be too much longer before insurance companies start to refuse payment for treatment that is nothing more than a referral to AA. In fact that is happening already.

All I am suggesting here is that to set your sights on AA as the thing that needs to change is setting your sights on the wrong target, IMO.

I'm sorry that your son is one of the people who was not helped by AA, or any of the paid professionals who took your money.

DG

[Supercrew]

Side effects of AA

I have not read the Jason Vale book, but I did read the Carr book after I had found my solution. Carr's book made a lot of sense to me. In my opinion one of the major problems with AA is alot of times you are getting help from people who don't understand their own problem, and might not even be free of their own problem...basically the blind leading the blind. The other thing I don't agree with is the "spiritual disease model". I think many people continue to drink, and often times drink more when they are told that they are powerless or that they have to hit rock bottom. I feel all this information does a disservice to people trying to fix their issue, and many times crates a self fulfilling prophesy making it harder to beat the addiction than it really is.

Where I think AA helps is if you follow the steps it will help to make you a better more thoughtful person, and it give a new non-drinker a social network and an activity with support that does not rely on alcohol.

[Greg]

Side effects of AA

I have not yet read Vale or Carr, but am interested in doing so. I feel I have progressed a long way in my thinking since the days of feeling that I could not get through one night without booze, but I still do have that last hump to get over. I have to be able to find a totally non-intoxicant way of spending the nights that have previously been filled by alcohol.

I have been to a wide variety of AA meetings, and have found a few I didn't mind. While I heard a fair bit of talk about having to hit rock bottom, one old-timer simply said to me "alcoholism is like a downhill train ride, you can get off at any station you wish...or else ride it right down to the bottom". Some others were also not the cultish figures you may expect. The amount of smoking at meetings always struck me, as did heavy coffee drinking...almost like substitutes, not that I would have ever suggested that. I did find out how strongly AA members feel against any and all medications, after mentioning anti-craving drugs at one meeting. And yet, I also went to one meeting where it was ok to talk about cannabis use!! I have found AA helpful as a form of sober social contact, and also a way towards self-improvement as long as you don't get too caught up in the Higher Power part (if you aren't that way inclined).

Rehabs in this country are often AA-oriented, but there are also a couple that go their own way. One is a therapeutic community that is not heavily AA based, although they do encourage meeting attendance as one part of their program. Another one allows medication, rather than being the strict medication-free type. I don't know about our private rehabs, which would cost thousands of dollars (I assume) just like ones in the US.

[Supercrew]

Side effects of AA

I agree with everything you wrote Greg, and I agree with the old-timers message regarding the downhill train ride. One of the places I got caught up was with the idea that once you are an alcoholic you are always an alcoholic, and AA is for alcoholics. I don't consider myself an alcoholic, because I don't drink anymore. I am a non-drinker. I know it is all semantics, but my mind understands that alcoholics have trouble with alcohol, and being I don't drink alcohol I don't have a problem with it. To free yourself from the label is to free yourself from the problem. All my friends and family now know I don't drink. What I did in the past has no effect on my future. My future is all about self improvement and being a non-drinker.

The way I came up with this idea was when I was really struggling on an hour to hour basis of whether I was going to run to the store and grab a bottle or not. I thought back to when I was 14 before I ever started drinking, and even up until I was 30 when I was a heavy binge drinker, but if I didn't drink for a week it wasn't a big deal. What had changed in me that I was sitting there obsessing over this stupid poison? What changed was I said "I can not drink alcohol". Well the reality is I can drink whenever I want to, but all of this pain caused by alcohol would go away if I just chose to not drink it and forget about it and be happy. I know this might sound overly simplistic or even stupid to some, but once I beat the physical addiction, just saying "I choose to be sober", rather than "I can't drink", made a whole lot of sense. It wasn't I can't have it, it was all about I don't want it. Your brain listens to semantics and acts on them. For me AA was all about negative messages, and spiritual maladies. I'm about self improvement and positive reinforcment. I was stuck in a rut for a long time because I let myself believe that if I wasn't drinking I would be missing something, the reality is that I was missing life because I was drinking.

If AA works for anybody reading this, more power to you, but I have found that the word alcoholism itself created a self built invisible cell for me, and although I have always had a key to open that cell I just didn't know which pocket it was in, and self learned habits and long held false beliefs kept me in that cage for too long. Be sober because you love being sober and because drinking causes pain. If drinking didn't cause you pain you wouldn't be on this forum.