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[coalfire]

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This article deals with the whole issue of kava and liver damage. There are meetings taking place this year to try and have the kava ban lifted in various places.


Does it work? Can kava help relieve anxiety? - The Irish Times - Tue, Feb 22, 2011

Akgirl. That sounds like quite an evening.

[TracyA]

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redhead77;1079683 wrote: If you buy it in the US now, you can only find the root.

By coincidence, I found a couple bottles that I bought from here, but they are more than five years old. I don't think they did much for me, which is why they were in a box overflowing with stuff that I don't use. Should apply the Oprah rule, I guess.

[redhead77]

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Sorry, for the hijack Greg.

Tracy, I'm again digging the avatar. Very pretty. I admire that you feel that you can post the "real" you. Imagine if we all did that? I for one can't if I ever want to be gamefully employed again. Wish I could, though. Regarding supplements, since they are not regulated in our country, no one ever knows what they're getting. I'm not sure if you have good kava kava or not. There is a certification stamp that is on some supplement bottles. Some regulation is happening here. It's called GMP. It's apparently a stamp that you are getting exactly what you intended to buy, and the dosage on the label is accurate. I have a few brands of supps I buy. I won't give them my money, unless I see the GMP stamp.

Thanks Coalfire for posting that article. It was interesting and it turns out that one does have to mindful of the liver, when taking this supp. Still a good option if you can safely take it.

[Bruunhilde]

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Thanks for this helpful thread everyone who posted. Sorry for your upchucking AKgirl, sounds awful and awfully familiar so far as the addict mind goes.

[coalfire]

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Yes I thought it was interesting. I had always thought that roots=good and leaves=bad but it would seem that there is a lot more to it than that. It would be a good article to refer to if anyone was seriously considering tracking down a supply.

[TracyA]

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redhead77;1080083 wrote: I admire that you feel that you can post the "real" you. Imagine if we all did that?
Wouldn't that be super cool? I've thought of what great fun it would be if we could set a group Skype or video conference. Are you going to Chicago for the meet up in the fall?

I for one can't if I ever want to be gamefully employed again. Wish I could, though.

I'll probably add my disrespect for my own anonymity to my list of regrets someday. Right now though, don't care.

I have a few brands of supps I buy. I won't give them my money, unless I see the GMP stamp.

Now, that's very good to know. Thanks! I checked. Mine don't have a stamp.

[coalfire]

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Brunn. This reminds me of your friend and her catnip.


http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2..._to_nip_sg.gif

[Bruunhilde]

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LOL, cute Coal, I like it.

My cat baits my dog, but not this brazen - she's a pure alpha bitch cat, but she's 9lbs to his 90lbs. Maybe if I add the catnip, I'd have something worth posting here. :H

[Greg]

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Thanks for the kava information. I had also thought it was a simple matter of using the roots rather than other parts of the plant, and being sure no solvents like acetone had been used.

Like AKgirl I also had a rotten experience with kava, when I foolishly drank over 100 mL of tincture looking for a buzz. Of course the tincture contains a lot of alcohol and isn't meant to be drank in large amounts, and I certainly paid for it the next day! I also tried the powder in water but it didn't do much on most occasions. We don't have these products anymore, and even if we did, I don't think I would have kept trying to use kava as an alcohol substitute. Like anything else, different people get different effects I guess.

Since originally posting this, I cringe at times thinking about posting this stuff on a recovery site, but I remember why I did each time I think of the ultra-low recovery rate with all the other treatments for alcoholism (bac excepted). That's the whole reason why I tried to think outside the box and mention radical ideas like alcohol substitution. I have repeatedly heard alcoholic friends say they couldn't give up alcohol without something else in their lives to take its place, and how they feel that only things having anti-anxiety and depression-relieving qualities could help. Many also say they would look for things to help them sleep if they had to give up alcohol. You know, I don't think these are just excuses to keep on drinking either, not every time. I think there is truth in what is said along these lines, even if using alternative substances is one of the most dangerous ways of going about this. I think the central thing is that many people are just not ready to stop drinking and take nothing else that is psychoactive, even though that is what most people regard as true 100-percent sobriety. These friends have also been to AA but of course were shunned if they revealed use of any substances...but then could AA be right in saying that there is no easier, softer way, at least for some people??

I have often wondered how people like me and others unable to let go of substances would get along in a good rehab facility, one where your ways of thinking about the world and ways of feeling were addressed in detail. I do think this would offer a way out of this mess for some, despite hearing mainly negative stories about rehab and also hearing very low recovery rates.

[coalfire]

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Greg I dont think you have to worry too much about posting here.MWO is a recovery support group yes,but it is also a think tank for those who like to stand back and take a long fresh look at the whole concept of alcoholism and its treatments.It is generally understood that MWO is not the same as soberrecovery.com or intherooms.com .It is obvious that so many of us trawl the web looking at different ideas and approaches and it is good to have somewhere that we can bring our thoughts so that they can be shared and examined by others.We learn so much from each other and it helps to alleviate some of the loneliness that alcoholism normally generates. There is no succcesful medical pathway for us so we have to work it out ourselves and mainstream media does not cater for our concerns so we need somewhere to talk. Dont forget that MWO was set up by someone who thought outside the box.I had a few sneaky suspicions that OA had read this site. Some of his thinking was decidedly MWO in that book.:H So I would have a post and be damned attitude.(within reason)

I dont know about the whole rehab thing. Its the usual story.Some people swear by it and others say it just left them financially broke and did nothing to help them.

You talked about our ways of thinking about the world.. well there is one thing that has been on my mind. The word anxiety is thrown around a lot on MWO and a lot of people say that they have great difficulty mixing with other people. Every time I read those posts I think- Define anxiety. Do people have social phobia,generalised anxiety disorder or what?Some people seem to find it so stressful dealing with others that you would wonder do they have avoidant personality disorder.(Here are a look at the 4 subtypes for anyone who is interested)AVPD subtypes There were calls for MWO to have a mental health section but it didnt happen. I think it needs one.However I agree that people should think long and hard about their ways of thinking about the world and maybe spend some time on forums like Psychology & mental health forums. looking and learning about anxiety disorders instead of just thinking of it as anxiety.If people were concerned then it might be good idea to try and get a proper diagnosis. We think of ourselves as alkies but what else could be there?


Lastly Greg.You mentioned that the kava tincture has alcohol in it. Is it just the tincture do you know? I do not want to touch anything with alcohol in it as it would ignite a mega craving response in me. I was saying somewhere else that I have christened it my Oliver Twist response.

"Please sir. I want some more."

[Greg]

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Hey coalfire, being on this site is very much a social thing for me too, considering that I have very few other social outlets. I don't hang out in pubs or clubs anymore, for obvious reasons, and there is very little happening for single people like myself in country areas.

I admit that one of my still-drinking mates spent 9 weeks in a rehab facility in Canberra, and busted out on the grog very soon after coming out. Fortunately there are some cheap rehab options in our country, in addition to the expensive private centres. Unfortunately some of these (or most?) are pretty heavily based on AA and the 12 steps; one facility involves dedicating a week to each of the steps to make up their 12 week program.

Regarding anxiety, my own case was that of severe social anxiety from teenage years, which wouldn't seem to go away. It was worst of all in dating situations. I actually do believe I may have Avoidant Personality Disorder, and I see this in a friend too. In the end I began avoiding social and dating scenes, since my anxiety would not go away even after repeated attempts to engage in these things. Loneliness, depression, and being a loner became issues for me, and that was part of my reason for turning to alcohol. Even though alcohol didn't really help me with socialising all that much, it did offer a temporary escape each night. Others experience more of a generalised anxiety, in which they worry about anything and everything and obsess about things for hours. I get times like this, and an alcoholic friend says this is his main issue. He knows his worrying is illogical and out of all proportion to events at times but he says he can't stop it. Dr Ameisen had this type of anxiety I think. Alcohol acts as a direct anxiolytic for people like this. The fact that alcohol works, and works quickly, is both a good and a bad thing for them!

I would still like to get a proper diagnosis of myself, but I tended to find that doctors and even shrinks would concentrate on the first few things I said about myself, and did not go into more detail. They would quickly label me as anxious and depressed, and of course alcoholic, but would not go into more detailed diagnoses like personality disorders (or related possibilities like Aspergers Syndrome). So I honestly don't fully know what's wrong with me, but I remain interested in finding out some day. A problem with these disorders is that there really isn't much treatment for them, which could be why nobody wanted to go into this sort of stuff with me. Another thing is a lack of real-life support groups for disorders, despite government initiatives encouraging people with problems to 'seek help'. A mental health section here could indeed help some of us; an alternative could be joining other forums that are mainly about particular problems (although I'm not well informed about any just yet).

I would definitely agree that you should avoid everything with alcohol in it. I know I would be absolutely back to addictive drinking, and would probably not even want to stop again, if I exposed myself to alcohol in any form. I try to remember how strong a hold it had over my mind, but sometimes it's easy to forget this. As far as I know kava tincture is the only kava product that contains alcohol, since tablets or powder are the other main forms of kava. If you found any other kava products that are liquids I would be extremely careful however, and ask before buying any. Nothing is worth risking alcohol again in my opinion.

Thanks also for those links, I will check them out.

[coalfire]

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Hi Greg. The psych forum that I linked you to has a section on AVPD. It is difficult with personality disorders because as you said they are basically untreatable.It would be difficult to find a support group for that condition specifically because people who have it by their very nature sometimes shy away from the group scenario.I think people with personality disorders have a few things to weigh up.
1 The disorder is untreatable
2 Whatever about alcoholism,I dont believe that a cure for personality disorders will ever
be found in our life time.They are not even within a million miles of it.
3 Thats depressing.
4 Life still has to count. We only have the one.


Thats quite a colundrum and you can see how alcohol can enter the picture very quickly.You know the whole serenity prayer thing about changing the things we can and accepting the things we cant?Well I think there is something in that for personality disorders and I dont mean in a pious trite way.I think the main thing is maybe to avoid all or nothing thinking.

For example someone with AVPD might find that it is too stressful to work with people every day so one day they suddenly implode and leave work altogether. There could be a happy medium eg working part time or accepting reduced pay to find a behind the scenes job.

Someone with Avpd might find it hard to deal with groups so they become a recluse. They might have managed though to maintain 1 or 2 close friendships or even made the most of their family circle.

I dont know if I am explaining this very well but I think it is a combination of being gentle with yourself and accepting the disorder but at the same time not retreating into it entirely.Sort of accepting it and continually pushing at the boundaries of it as well.

I think that marriage can offer a great and comforting sanctuary to those with social anxiety. A safe and happy home can be a wonderful antidote to the disorder. However to marry you have to date(in western cultures) It can be more difficult for a man as generally they are seen as the ones who are traditionally more out there. A "shy" woman can get by just that little bit more easier I think. Us women can be unthinkingly mean and a little callous when we are younger and many do tend to go for the gregarious type bad boys but we mature.By our early /mid 30s we tend not to be put off by a more reticent nature. Many prefer it, having eventually come to understand that many good things lie underneath it. Mr coalfire was very shy on our early dates but I had finally gained the maturity to wait as it were and he was worth it. No matter how many bruises a person has had out there I would never give up on the dating game.Never. Its worth it all when it finally happens I think.

A residential treatment program for someone who has underlying social anxiety...hmm. It might be good. If someone has been isolated for a long time then walls have been built and a 9 week program could perhaps help some one shatter their prison bars and learn to re integrate again. People could become good friends in 9 weeks and if a happy outcome like that could be achieved then I wouldnt stress too much about 12 steps or lack of them. You sound like a very independent individual and Im sure you would have no problem taking the best and leaving the rest of any such program. I suppose its worth stating the obvious too. You could always leave. I dont know if those places have psychiatrists or not but if so it might be good to deal with someone who had a longer opportunity to observe you and your personality and perhaps be able to explore things a little deeper?

You seem to be comfortable experimenting with meds judging by your earlier posts so I imagine you know about anti anxiety meds. It is well worth taking a look at the holistic healing section. I have also heard so many times that that the emotional freedom technique seems to work particularly well for social anxiety. It is an odd looking treatment but the praise for it has been continuous over the years. Whats the worst could happen if someone tried it? Its a tough road though dealing with both alcohol and underlying issues. Its a huge day in day out issue not to become totally overwhelmed and give up. Oh and some fun would be nice in this life too! We all have the right to be on this planet and I think its all about having a quiet but firm attitude that we are going to grab a little piece of the action while we are here and make our lives count. Disorders or no disorders! Ps Off to bed now. Its after midnight in Ireland. Talk soon.x

[TracyA]

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Regarding the anxiety, if you have both social anxiety and generalized anxiety, is it just generalized anxiety or GA+? The balcofen helped almost immediately with the generalized stuff (obsessive worrying), but I don't think it's done a whole lot with the other. One of the reasons I left my job is because I just couldn't stand feeling manipulated, the gaminess, the backstabbing, the games that people play in the workplace. When I was younger, I had more energy and more resilience. Anymore, that kind of stuff just sucks the life right outta me.

It's a two-part thing. Part one is that I'd always suspected that there were secret rules about getting along with people. I didn't understand the rules. When I finally got around to sussing out the rules, I realized that I don't want to deal with all that crap. If I can't be who I really am, what's the point of friendships?

The second part is this: I have a problem with people. I don't like them much. Seriously. People can be fun in limited doses, when I choose to keep company with a particular person, but not every day. The whole Lucy/Ethel kind of friendship - I would run away screaming. I would have to start locking the door and pulling the drapes closed - or I'd have to move or strangle Ethel! I really prize my privacy (you'd never know from my posts here!) There really are not many people whose company I would seek out anyway. Even then it would be only because they really needed company or I really wanted company. But then, sometimes I'm lonely too.

I read somewhere that most people only like about 25% of the people that they meet. If so, I think most people are doing a little better than I am. The significant relationships I have now, my husband in particular, are very comfortable and cozy. I can be who I really am, all the time, 100%, without anybody feeling threatened or put out. I think a lot of people can have that kind of relationship with lots other people. Or maybe not. I talked about all this with the same shrink who talked about children spinning. She said that some people go wide (lots of relationships) and some people go deep (few but profound). I don't know, but I think there may be truth in that. But I am sure that for other people, people are a comfort (that Streisand song - the luckiest people in the world). For me, not so much.

[TracyA]

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coalfire;1080367 wrote: No matter how many bruises a person has had out there I would never give up on the dating game.Never. Its worth it all when it finally happens I think.

I think this is true, unless a person is in a space of just not wanting it anymore. People get to that point in life, women in particular, of just not wanting to share their space or their lives with an SO.

[bleep]

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Hi Greg,

A forum I found during my research was Baclofen - Page 5 - Social Anxiety Forum Although that link will take you to a specific post, the forum itself is very interesting, and the people there have a bias toward a chemical solution, as you seem to yourself.

This thread, and Tracy's recent post in particular, have made me realise that I don't particularly like people very much! It's come as a surprise to realise this. While I am an extrovert by nature, I get very annoyed if guests don't leave on schedule, or I get stuck in a social situation for longer than I choose. I realise that booze helped with this - I am extremely extroverted after a few drinks, and become more so the drunker I get. I wonder if it had something to do with it. Interesting to me, as I say. Thanks Tracy for pointing it out so I could come to this realisation.

Some very good posts in this thread coalfire.