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    #46
    TOO Much Baclofen!!!

    RedThread12;1092867 wrote:
    In the end, it's all about whether or not we actually DO the work. The brain doesn't change by thinking about itself :H:H
    No, the brain does not change by thinking about itself... but according to OA (and Dr. L), the brain does change by taking baclofen.

    It's the rest     we have to work on, after, or during, the brain change.
    Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life... And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.

    Steve Jobs, Stanford Commencement Adress, 2005

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      #47
      TOO Much Baclofen!!!

      Thanks Red - is there anything you can suggest for the casual user? I have tried Amazon in the past for other things, unfortunately, they don't deliver to my part of the world...

      In the meantime, I'll see what I can download.

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        #48
        TOO Much Baclofen!!!

        Where are ya' sister?

        Comment

          #49
          TOO Much Baclofen!!!

          Hey, Bleep: I can get the stuff from Amazon and send it to you. Like I said, it's only $20, plus whatever postage would be. In the meantime and this is a good suggestion for everyone interested in meditation, go to YouTube and search: Google Tech Talks. Google brings people to their campus to give hour-long talks, and there are several that have been given by the guys who are doing the most interesting, cutting-edge work between meditation, and mental and physical health. Here are the guys whose talks you want to listen to:

          Matthieu Ricard; Jon Kabat-Zinn; Richie Davidson; Daniel Seigel and maybe Philippe Goldin.

          There's a teacher named Shinzen Young whose work is good and I think he has posted quite a bit of material.

          This website doesn't have stuff that teaches you to meditate - it has talks that teachers give to students who are participating in meditation courses. But the information contained in these talks is literally invaluable. You can search by topic or teacher. If you get interested in it let me know and I'll recommend some of the teachers I like the best.
          Dharma Seed

          The problem is finding places to just get the simple instructions for sitting down and doing it, 'cause, as Matthieu Ricard (now known as "the world's happiest man because of what they can see in his brain through fMRI imaging) says, "meditation isn't just sitting down under a mango tree and emptying your mind."

          Also, I posted earlier a link to a more expensive set of material from Jon Kabat-Zinn that you could possibly get sent to wherever you are. Here it is again: Nightingale-Conant presents Jon Kabat-Zinn

          And - PM me your email address and I can upload a couple of mp3 files that might help you get started.
          "Wherever you are is the entry point." --Kabir

          Comment

            #50
            TOO Much Baclofen!!!

            Thanks a lot Red, I'll look into it all...

            PM sent.

            Comment

              #51
              TOO Much Baclofen!!!

              Missing you again.
              What's news?

              Comment

                #52
                TOO Much Baclofen!!!

                I went looking for the following post (about supplements) because I keep meaning to post it and make sure it's around for all time. But if you scroll to the bottom, you'll see some posts that made me smile out loud.

                RedThread12;1081245 wrote: I feel like the plate-spinner in the circus, running around to everyone's threads posting this information to bring light that I consider second only to the miracle of baclofen to the subjects of weight gain and mood-stabilization once the AL gives us up.

                So I'll post it here for you to read, and to have it consolidated as a link to offer others. I've realized I'm not a short poster, I kinda' like the story, so bear with me.

                A month into baclofen, I had gained 18 lbs. I started taking baclofen about 18 lbs. overweight. Easy to do on a diet of vodka, red wine and pastries. I've never been thin, but always fit and strong. Now I was fat, as noted so kindly by my mother. The choice appeared to be fat or sober, but NO!!! This was in Oct. '09. Not so much bac'ing on the board, so I read everything. Voila. DeeBee had posted this https://www.mywayout.org/community/f6...ine-37269.html THIS should be sticked at the top of any baclofen forum! There was also a big discussion about how awful All-One is. I decided to check it out and found at that there are several versions of it, and decided to try the Rice-Based product.

                Then I discovered that a friend of mine who is a naturopath had put together a list she calls "Biochemistry of Contentment" to complement her husband's new book, "Buddha's Brain." Shameless plug here - it's by Rick Hanson; it's simple to understand and is a great introduction into the interface between contemplative practice, neuroscience and psychology. Oh what the hell, this is my thread! His website is Wisebrain.org. If you want to know more about the amygdala (which is just the opener to the brain stuff) go there. It is a profoundly generous source of scientifically based knowledge that, yes, perfectly parallels what the Buddha discovered about how the brain works.

                So working with Jan's information, plus a little PM'ing with Sapphire1 over on the Underoo's thread, I began a pretty massive supplement routine. I'll give you the results, then I'll give you the list, so you can cut and paste it and leave out all this story!:H:H

                I have lost 35 lbs. I now weigh 6 lbs. more than I did when I graduated from high school. I've always been 10-15 lbs. heavier than that. Today, I eat well in order to keep my weight from going lower. I think I have more skin than I did when I was 18! Weighing less would NOT make me more attractive at age 54.

                I quit taking Zoloft. I had been on it for 4 years. This wasn't even a conscious decision. I started skipping days, then several days, then one night I noticed some zappy sensations coming out of my brain and remembered that those could be a SE of coming off an anti-depressant. That just lasted a day or two.

                My mood (kinda' even including while overdosing on baclofen) has been upbeat, stable and, dare I say it, leaning toward kind and compassionate. Better, even, I would say, than when I was meditating 2 hours each and every day, thereby controlling my anxiety and never drinking.

                I quit caffeine. I NEVER wanted to quit caffeine. I was the grinder, frother, fair-trade, organic kind of coffee girl. Now it makes me jittery. Damn.

                I know everyone has different responses to everything. I have a lifetime of cultivating awareness of my body (although even that had no chance in the face of my full-blown alcoholism, but that's another story), so what I suggest is that you try some of these things, according to your body's response. I started losing weight when I began to take 5-7 mg l-glute instead of eating lunch.

                Drumroll, please . . . .

                L-Glutamine: at LEAST 15-20 mg/day. 5-10 mg in the am and 5-10 mg around 2 pm. My doc is a body-builder and she says it's okay to take as much as you want - until you start to smell like ammonia.
                Rice-Base All-One: aminos for the brain; important B's, you can read about it
                P5P: a form of vitamin B that supports all the aminos getting into the brain; 100 mg/day
                5HTP: supports the seratonin pathways in the brain; 100 mg/day (Otter has an objection to this, but in this case I'm going with Jan, who is a trained naturopath)
                GABA: 1000 mg/day. There's some question about whether or not it actually crosses the blood-brain barrier, but the P5P should help this, and I figure "why not?"
                Taurine: binds to the GABA receptor to increase GABA-like (contentment) activity: 1000 mg/day. As Sapphire noted, Taurine can make some people agitated, so be aware. Also used in "energy drinks," so might be helpful for bac-somnolence.
                L-Tyrosine: feeds the dopamine/norepineprine pathways. 1000 mg/day
                Fish Oil:                 I can't handle pills AT ALL but do quite well with a liquid product from Carlson Labs that has EPA and DHA doses equivalent to Metagenics (much more expensive) products.
                Vitamin D3:                : I think I got this from Sapphire as a mood stabilizer.
                Vitamin B3                : Ditto above.
                For vanity's sake, I take Biosil                , because the baclofen seemed to be thinning and drying my hair and nails. It's liquid silicon.

                I, of course, alcoholic that I am, started taking all of this pretty much at the same time. If you're interested, I suggest you start at the top of the list and work your way down, giving yourself time to observe the effects of each supplement

                I buy everything at Vitamins & Supplements - Buy Discount Vitamins Online - Vitacost. Great prices, great service - always arrives withing 4-5 days after I order. Hope that doesn't violate any rules.

                Of all of this, I cast my vote for massive amounts of L-glutamine and All-One. Good luck. If it happened for me it can happen for you!!
                Lo0p;1078469 wrote:
                You could've just pm'ed me. I would've said: "You'll be fine. Trust me. You'll be fine." :H
                RedThread12;1078837 wrote:

                LoOp, if I ever meet you or talk to you on the phone I'm sure I'll recognize your voice, "5 hours. You'll be okay."

                ...

                Ne: Oh completely woo-hoo. This kind of experience is that should be "stickied" at the top of the forum - with the clear instructions: DO NOT DO THIS (overdose), but if you are stupid enough to do it, like Red Thread was, consider this option. I realize what I did may not be appropriate for everyone, but seeing it as a possibility might build some confidence for others.

                Comment

                  #53
                  TOO Much Baclofen!!!

                  So, did you recognize my voice? :H
                  :nutso: I take pride in my humility :nutso:
                  :what?:
                  sigpic
                  Graph of My Drinking From July '09 to January '10

                  Consolidated Baclofen Information Thread




                  Baclofen for Alcoholism and Other Addictions
                  A Forum
                  Trolls need not apply

                  Comment

                    #54
                    TOO Much Baclofen!!!

                    L-Glutamine: at LEAST 15-20 mg/day. 5-10 mg in the am and 5-10 mg around 2 pm. My doc is a body-builder and she says it's okay to take as much as you want - until you start to smell like ammonia.
                    Rice-Base All-One: aminos for the brain; important B's, you can read about it
                    P5P: a form of vitamin B that supports all the aminos getting into the brain; 100 mg/day
                    5HTP: supports the seratonin pathways in the brain; 100 mg/day (Otter has an objection to this, but in this case I'm going with Jan, who is a trained naturopath)
                    GABA: 1000 mg/day. There's some question about whether or not it actually crosses the blood-brain barrier, but the P5P should help this, and I figure "why not?"
                    Taurine: binds to the GABA receptor to increase GABA-like (contentment) activity: 1000 mg/day. As Sapphire noted, Taurine can make some people agitated, so be aware. Also used in "energy drinks," so might be helpful for bac-somnolence.
                    L-Tyrosine: feeds the dopamine/norepineprine pathways. 1000 mg/day
                    Fish Oil: I can't handle pills AT ALL but do quite well with a liquid product from Carlson Labs that has EPA and DHA doses equivalent to Metagenics (much more expensive) products.
                    Vitamin D3:: I think I got this from Sapphire as a mood stabilizer.
                    Vitamin B3: Ditto above.
                    For vanity's sake, I take Biosil, because the baclofen seemed to be thinning and drying my hair and nails. It's liquid silicon.
                    I have a few comments on RedThread's supps:
                    I assume she means grams rather than milligrams for the Glutamine. Either way, personally I would recommend against its use. Glutamine is a precursor to the neurotransmitter glutamate. Glutamate and GABA are balanced in the brain, when one is elevated the other is decreased. When we drink alcohol we raise the level of GABA and feel relaxed. When the alcohol wears off, Glutamate levels rise, we become agitated and feel the need to drink to once again raise GABA to counteract Glutamate. Each time we do this, the Glutamate level rises even more and the need to drink increases. The last thing we need to do is actually add to our Glutamate levels.

                    5HTP as a precursor to Serotonin, yep, but also to Melatonin, which is rather important to those of us suffering from bac-induced insomnia. There is some debate about whether 5HTP or L-Tryptophan (its precursor) would be best for this, though.

                    Personally I find that Tyrosine just makes me sleepy, which is rather weird because as well as a precursor to Dopamine and Norepinephrine, it can also be converted into Ephedrine, so surely it should wake me up. Go figure! Anyhoo, I find that taking Tyrosine's precursor Phenylalanine works for me.

                    RedThread takes the B vits, which she rightly says are crucial for certain aminos to cross the blood brain barrier. However, I believe (though may well be wrong) that it's B6 in particular that you need to take and specifically at the same time as the particular aminos that need help crossing the BBB. Also an insulin spike at the same time also helps.

                    Oh and Tryptophan and Phenylalanine shouldn't be taken together, or with any other amino source, so need to be taken on an empty stomach and at least 30 minutes before food.
                    "My fault, my failure, is not in the passions I have, but in my lack of control of them." Jack Kerouac

                    Comment

                      #55
                      TOO Much Baclofen!!!

                      Clearly then, I am a one-off among us. The, yes, grams of l-glutamine made my blood sugar so steady that I had to forgo my beloved fair trade organic home-ground espresso because THAT made me agitated. With absolutely zero interest in carbohydrates or sugars of any kind, I lost over 20 lbs., effortlessly. And it certainly had no effect on my desire to drink! Probably made it even less attractive, with all that sugar. So what you describe and what I experienced are 2 completely different scenarios.

                      I have a friend who just turned 76. He takes 50 mg seroquel every night, finally listened to me about how much l-glutamine to take, and lost over 20 lbs. We both have recently had full physical check-ups, with full before and after eating blood, liver, kidney, hormone, etc. panels. His reports were the best EVER in all of his 76 years including cholesterol and blood pressure. Mine are, as usual, dead-on normal

                      But let me underscore than I did not post the above to advise anyone else what to do. It is just what I do. And I think someone, somewhere, had asked me about that.

                      You are correct, though about the B6. And the specific form of B6 that assists all the other neurotransmitters to cross the blood-brain barrier. It is P-5-P. (I forget what the p's stand for), and must be taken along with the other supplements for that support. All-One has not only vitamin and mineral supplements, but also some of the amino acids that appear to suffer in and around the ol' brain synapses when copious amounts of alcohol are applied, which I figure can't hurt.

                      I've never heard anything about an insulin spike in regard to any information about vitamins, minerals or neurotransmitters??? Would be interested in the information, although I personally deplore the sensations of insulin spiking. I get agitated and grumpy. But ONLY then . . . never, ever any other time. :H:H
                      "Wherever you are is the entry point." --Kabir

                      Comment

                        #56
                        TOO Much Baclofen!!!

                        What age are you Red if you don't mind me asking 76 and your friend is on Bac? That's awesome.

                        I hope I see my 70s.

                        Comment

                          #57
                          TOO Much Baclofen!!!

                          I'm 102, but I look 57, because I've done so much yoga and meditation, and take my supplements regularly. Oh, wait, I'm 57 next month, but I look 102 because I've barely slept since April 25 when I arrived home from 2 months in India to discover ummm . . . disturbing, prosecutable, big bad things that have been done to my 85 year old mother. YET, due to my awesome supplement regime, AND yoga and meditation, I'm ALIVE!!! And I even taught a yoga class this very morning. Before un-packing, re-packing and leaving home, again. But a girl's gotta' do what a girl's gotta' do.

                          My friend, who turned 76 yesterday, takes seroquel to sleep, and l-glutamine and All-One, as I describe above. He does, indeed sleep 8 hours every night, and has lost over 20 lbs., himself.

                          He doesn't take bac, though. He doesn't have the disease. But he has seen me through the worst of the worst, and after initial scepticism (back in fall of '09), understands and is fully convinced of the wonder of bac. And he knows me very, very well. And I will just add that neither seroquel nor l-glutamine have had detrimental effects for this 76 year young man in the knob department.

                          And, if he ever DID want to diminish his drinking, he would not hesitate to take baclofen. I've already added years to his life by insisting on the l-glutamine, and joy because he no longer ever has to get up in the middle of the night to pee. It's sometimes the small things, 'ya know?!?
                          "Wherever you are is the entry point." --Kabir

                          Comment

                            #58
                            TOO Much Baclofen!!!

                            Wow RedThread

                            How I wish I'd seen your first post ages ago. I had 2 overdoses when I was at 210mg and had to back track without being at the "switch".
                            Ended up in the ER at our local hospital for a night which was scary.
                            Anyway, the down side is I doubt I hit the "switch" and will no doubt have to go back up there.
                            Bummer.

                            Sticky

                            Comment

                              #59
                              TOO Much Baclofen!!!

                              Oh, Sticks . . . so sorry you had to go through that. I also posted a "baclofen overdose" emergency kit, and got some flack for that. But after my first OD I went immediately to www.alldaychemist and ordered Phenergan, for nausea, and bought a blood pressure cuff for home. So the second time it happened I was well prepared, even though that amount was so stupid, stupid, stupid I didn't even post about it.

                              Thanks for underlining the reason for my monotonous litany of READ, READ, READ. A LOT!!! So much amazing stuff goes by to fast on this board - and some of it has saved my arse, a couple of times. Are you watching Ig's and Bleep's threads - 2 older baclofentists who are chronicling their re-start of baclofen. There is NO WHERE in the WORLD (except perhaps forums like this is foreign languages) where this kind of information is available. Awesome, awesome, awesome . . . bows of gratitude to everyone that I don't have time to name, but include you, Sticky, and maybe you, reading this.
                              "Wherever you are is the entry point." --Kabir

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                                #60
                                TOO Much Baclofen!!!

                                And thank you bacatcha.
                                :bow

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