How did Dr Ameisen do it without severe side effects?

[TracyA]

How did Dr Ameisen do it without severe side effects?

redhead77;1082099 wrote: The thing is, they always "happen".

Yes, that seems to be truth. I've yet to see a post where someone claimed zero side effects - and I wouldn't believe it if I did read it.

Dr. L told me that the goal was no side effects. He didn't deny they were happening though. My most annoying one is likely due to having smoked like chimney for decades. If that hadn't been a factor, this wouldn't have been a real difficult ride so far. The sleepiness is second worst, and Dr. L was open to trying treat that, so he knows they happen.

Part of what Florie talked about in her radio interview was that any talk of SE's was edited out. I think it's really crazy to try to promote the baclofen cure without acknowledging the SE's. It's not responsible. It seems to me that approach would lead to many more failures than successes if people are sabotaged by the SE's instead of going into it expecting the SE's. That's one of the reasons this forum is so helpful, I think.

[ignominious]

How did Dr Ameisen do it without severe side effects?

Ne, as I mentioned earlier there are bound to be some differences in the SEs between men and women. The range of SEs for women will cover a wide spectrum and the range of SEs for men will also cover a wide spectrum. They will both form bell curves and there will be a difference in the shape. Clearly not all the SEs can be classed as psychosomatic, somnolence is one surely some SEs will affect men and women differently. I suggest that a large majority of the reported SEs have their origin in the mind and the symptoms exhibited are therefore psychosomatic.

What I don't fully buy into is that women have more/worse SEs to cope with than men. I think it is down to the individual psyches and how those individuals react to a stressful situation. I am the first to admit that there are fundamental differences between male and female brains. I had 2 daughters and considered myself an expert farther. My 3rd is a boy and frankly caught me by surprise with the difference.

This has hijacked the thread somewhat but I think its worth discussing.

[PbarE]

How did Dr Ameisen do it without severe side effects?

[QUOTE=TracyA;1082361]I think saying the SE's are psychosomatic is as illogical as saying that the symptoms of bac withdrawal are psychosomatic. Example: Respiratory SE's are real - bac is CNS suppressant, and it does very definitely suppress respiratory function. It makes sense to me that women would suffer more from respiratory SE's since women tend to breathe more shallowly and rapidly than men do. Baclofen wouldn't be the first medication that effects women more than men, and it would be silly to say that osteoporosis is really psychosomatic based on the fact that it effects women more frequently than men.

QUOTE]

Bravo, Tracy! I was up all night trying to come up with a clever retort to that psychosomatic hogwash. Now there is no need for it.

[PbarE]

How did Dr Ameisen do it without severe side effects?

TracyA;1082361 wrote: I think saying the SE's are psychosomatic is as illogical as saying that the symptoms of bac withdrawal are psychosomatic. Example: Respiratory SE's are real - bac is CNS suppressant, and it does very definitely suppress respiratory function. It makes sense to me that women would suffer more from respiratory SE's since women tend to breathe more shallowly and rapidly than men do. Baclofen wouldn't be the first medication that effects women more than men, and it would be silly to say that osteoporosis is really psychosomatic based on the fact that it effects women more frequently than men.

Bravo, Tracy! I was up all night trying to come up with a clever retort to that psychosomatic hogwash. Now there is no need for it.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

How did Dr Ameisen do it without severe side effects?

TracyA;1082373 wrote: Dr. L told me that the goal was no side effects.
This is one of the things that makes me very curious about the difference between what he hears (or listens to) and what we share here. Some of those SEs are very well documented here. It seemed to me (and others) that he'd never heard of them.

TracyA;1082373 wrote: Part of what Florie talked about in her radio interview was that any talk of SE's was edited out.

Very disingenuous, that. Profoundly absent in ALL of the public information about this treatment. It is definitely reflected in the GQ article about the man in NC who was treated with high-dose-bac, overseen by a pdoc in NYC and Dr. OA himself. Dr. OA seems to be very dismissive of the SEs he was experiencing.

Agreed, Tracy, thank goodness we have this forum and venue to share what are very common problems with high-dose-bac-treatment.

ignominious;1082375 wrote:
What I don't fully buy into is that women have more/worse SEs to cope with than men.

The issue is not whether they are 'worse' but clearly they are different. They are. period. Again, look to the science.

Whether or not they undermine the process for women remains to be seen, but I will again point out that the men on here have a much better success rate.**

The REAL question imo, is not whether it's worse, but, "Does it WORK?" Again, I write this as a woman who has reached indifference. But it is a question for every woman who enters this treatment for alcoholism.

I can't and won't address the psychosomatic stuff. I think it's bull shit. I know you don't. We'll have to agree to disagree.

It's a hijack of sorts, but an interesting discussion so far... One that has my mind actively engaged, anyway.

:ls
Ne
**Anyone who even remotely suggests this has to do with strength and determination... bring it on, but prepare to bac up your thoughtful statements with science and fact, because I have plenty of both that will disprove the silly notion. just sayin

[Brave Hearted]

How did Dr Ameisen do it without severe side effects?

Hi Tracy

I cannot recall which two brand were involved as I am not on it at the moment, going to see a doctor early nexy month who prescrible it for me rather than off the internet. But my experience was that the differant brand virtually took me back to day one on the s/e which was expremely upsetting haven riden the storm and got to a dose and stage that worked for me with no side effects. It really rocked my faith in bac and somewhat frightened me as I was and still am convinced bac is a long term aid to being af and the return of the s/e after a year was very disconcerting and upsetting . I then had to start messing about witht he dose etc to make myself feel well. It was from that point last summer after doing well on bac for a year that things started to go a bit wrong. My new plan to bet a brand and stick with it and the dose. I have been af now for 10 without bac I am dealing with it but for me I would rather be doing it with the bac as for me the switch was just as everybody describes it and al was totally down graded in my mind, which it is not being af without it !

[TracyA]

How did Dr Ameisen do it without severe side effects?

Ne/Neva Eva;1082382 wrote: This is one of the things that makes me very curious about the difference between what he hears (or listens to) and what we share here. Some of those SEs are very well documented here. It seemed to me (and others) that he'd never heard of them.
I confess that I minimize my experience because I'm a little afraid of losing the prescription. I also feel bad about infringing on the time of man who gives so much to so many here.

Very disingenuous, that. Profoundly absent in ALL of the public information about this treatment. It is definitely reflected in the GQ article about the man in NC who was treated with high-dose-bac, overseen by a pdoc in NYC and Dr. OA himself. Dr. OA seems to be very dismissive of the SEs he was experiencing.
You know what a paranoid I am anyway , but it seems to me that it goes beyond dismissive. In that particular instance (the interview), it looks to me like deliberate suppressing that information. I'm not loving it and don't think it's helpful to the cause.

Whether or not they undermine the process for women remains to be seen, but I will again point out that the men on here have a much better success rate.**

Yes - the differences in SE's sure appears to be real. When I read things like women just don't have the right attitude towards SE's, that's just crap. There is no way to "have fun" with difficulties breathing. There is no way to "have fun" with minimal functioning when you simply MUST function.

And another factor may be different responsibilities in life. I have stopped visiting the "Moms" thread because it's overwhelming to me to think of trying to do this and be an errand-running, cookie-baking, on-all-the-time mom. And also be dealing with not having the AL as a crutch. I think the same thing when I read Beatle's thread. All that would be plenty hard enough if you had no child-raising responsibilities and even a full-time maid!

The REAL question imo, is not whether it's worse, but, "Does it WORK?" Again, I write this as a woman who has reached indifference. But it is a question for every woman who enters this treatment for alcoholism.

Yes, again. I don't think women bail on this because they are not tough enough. I think it's worth exploring what those reasons are. I think I see hope, but I'm going to remain a skeptic until the switch happens for me. I was visiting a thread from about a year ago, and there were a whole LOT of people who posting then who are not posting now. Were all those people not tough enough? I don't think so.

[ignominious]

How did Dr Ameisen do it without severe side effects?

Ne/Neva Eva;1082382 wrote:
The issue is not whether they are 'worse' but clearly they are different. They are. period.

And then a few lines later

The REAL question imo, is not whether it's worse, but, "Does it WORK?"[/SIZE]
Great, when I know what the discussion's about I'll contribute if I think its useful.

TracyA;1082361 wrote: it would be silly to say that osteoporosis is really psychosomatic based on the fact that it effects women more frequently than men.

I agree Tracy and probably more silly to write such infantile irrelevant garbage.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

How did Dr Ameisen do it without severe side effects?

oh, Ig. I think it's useful when you contribute. That's why I referenced your thoughts on the matter. This should be sussed out thoughtfully, not with our usual digressions into ... our usual digressions.

Sorry I said that one point was bull shit. I started it. I'd like to take it bac...

I apologize.
Ne

[TracyA]

How did Dr Ameisen do it without severe side effects?

ignominious;1082399 wrote:
I agree Tracy and probably more silly to write such infantile irrelevant garbage.
Here's some silly, infantile, misogynist garbage for you, Ig:

Girls, girls calm down a little . . . I'll concede that giving birth is a little more strenuous than 'having a big poo' as someone suggested but that's about it . . . when I consider the angst I go through to fulfill my role as the bread earner . . . Men are trained to be strong, silent . . . The buck stops with us . . . We have learnt to expect to suffer, that suffering is part of being a man . . . Just suggesting that you find some pseudo physiological gonads and get on with it.

Aside from showing a staggering ignorance of the history of women around the world and their lives today, your post displays a towering lack of respect and, indeed, misogyny. You know, if you want to post as a charming misogynist, you really need to take lessons from Murph. The only difference is, I think for him it's an act . . .

If you cannot participate in a discussion that includes me without attacking me, feel free to pretend that I do not exist. I promise to return the favor insomuch as I will not address you specifically. But the dumb ass things that come out of your mouth - they're fair game.

[Bruunhilde]

How did Dr Ameisen do it without severe side effects?

BRAVO Tracy. There are many women on this site who are single mother (bringing up the kids AND being primary breadearners, try that on for size) and as Murph noted here, alot of women don't complain, they mention their severe SEs as an aside. Both men and women contribute to the SEs threads, but the men are definitely having an easier ride and I've never known that every man has a better attitude than every woman. Interesting theory. This is not to devalue the suffering of the men on bac, those who have a tough time, as tough as any woman for sure.

Regarding women as complainers, I find that amusing. I have never seen anything as melodramatic as a sick man. A hangover will KILL him, the flu requires an emergency room visit. Gees. And as AL's, I think all of us on this site are accustomed to NOT complaining about feeling shitty because we felt shitty hungover so many years or decades of our lives.

The psychomsomatic stuff is hilarious. Childbirth as 40 minutes of discomfort. I wish you childbirth in your next life, bud. Women are used to pain with monthly cramps and the mess, the "female problems", childbirth, etc. So when they complain, it's usually for damn good reasons.

I think when you are an anomoly (no negative SE's), you aren't qualified to make these blanket statements about others' suffering.

[Cinders]

How did Dr Ameisen do it without severe side effects?

I hate to be one to add to a bit of bashing BUT...

Girls, girls calm down a little. You do seem to think that you have first dips on suffering. I'll concede that giving birth is a little more strenuous than 'having a big poo' as someone suggested but that's about it. I think that suffering is handed out fairly; though clearly not evenly, when I consider the angst I go through to fulfill my role as the bread earner.

And then I read Tracy's post to you.

Much of my angst is that I have been the bread earner for the last 13 years for my family. I am a "girl," though.

Hubby has finally gotten a good job and now we have gone from paycheck to paycheck to spending too much.

I had to go through labor, too. Darn, things seem a bit uneven this way.

What about single parents? Men and women find themselves in the category.

Now, as to men being raised to be tough and women a little coddled, that was true in the past. I don't see it happening so much these days.

I was coddled and admit it.

But, I still respond that my SEs on Bac were not psychosomatic. Just as I told you my headaches weren't.

However, Ig, I do not take umbrage with you at all. I know that we all come from different backgrounds and different experiences.

I smiled when I read your post but you note I didn't respond to it until today. (The, girls, girls one.)

I only do so now because I wanted to chide you a bit without anger.

I hope you know that. I work with men, mostly, in my career. I do get the occasional, she can't possibly be that technical. That attitude lasts about a day at most and I never hold it against those who started out with me that way. Different walks of life get us to many different points. :-)

Cindi

[redhead77]

How did Dr Ameisen do it without severe side effects?

Awe hell. Who says you have to go to bed for a cold anyway?

Thanks for bringing that up Cinders. When I read this, I was like WHAT??? Cry me a river Ig. Some women on here are taking bac, the household breadwinner and single parents. The one's that come to mind are taw, beatle, and myself. I know beatle and I have no support system, and no child like bride, to pick up the pieces for us. There is no time out for a single mother. Little rest if the side's become too bad. I think that explains a lot as far as them having such a hard time with this, and even needing to stop. More of that on beatle's thread.

I'm glad we don't know each other in the "real" world. Because you my friend would be getting a big kick in the gonads. And not the pseudo kind. :H

[Lo0p]

How did Dr Ameisen do it without severe side effects?

beatle;1082120 wrote: Lo0p says he suffered no side effects for his fast titration. Other men have not mentioned SEs as a possible major obstacle in quick ramping up. In general, it seems that men have never thought about the different physiologies. Or at least acknowledged them.

I really downplayed my SE's in the very beginning, if I recall correctly. I did have "mild visual hallucinations" and reported that. I did have those "electrical shocks" (2nd day @ 250 mg) in my arms and hands and didn't report that. It did seem like an insane otherworldly, or religious experience...but I kind of expected it to be. I'd nod off asleep at my computer 25 times during the evening. I can identify @ sometime with probably about half of every side effect I've read about here, especially in the early days. Apnea-like symptoms, sure.

A lot of that was countered by the fact that prior to my first dose I very seriously "had sleeping and waking dreams of blowing my head off with a shotgun" and other scenarios at least every two hours for weeks. My family would find me sobbing in a corner in the fetal position for days at a time. Immediately upon taking a larger dose of baclofen a lot of these abated. Yes, they were replaced by side effects similar to or exactly the same as what I read about here.

Did I care or give a shit at all? No. I was "all-in", do or die. Did I suffer them to the same degree as everyone else? How the hell am I supposed to know? Did I suffer them to a lesser intensity because I'm a man? I don't know. Could I have suffered more and still stuck with it? A lot more. Who am I to say I didn't suffer? It's all relative I guess.

Of course when I read about other people's experiences with the SE's my knee-jerk reaction is just like any typical man. I think: "stop your fucking whining, consider the alternative, shove that shit down your throat and man up!" There is a place for these kinds of thoughts in my brain because I am a man and I accept that and literally can't help it. However, I like to think that I temper that before I let it turn into words. I like being a man and thinking like one but wholeheartedly acknowledge that I can be stupid and wrong sometimes (in fact I like it when I am, see my sig below :nutso.

I've been around long enough and read enough to realize that either I was just lucky, or I am constitutionally or physiologically different from these other people (you can read this as "just lucky" again).

I've been watching it forever. I've noticed for a very, very long time now that women can't seem to handle it like men can. I've been wanting to talk about it forever but never did for fear of being chastised.

I have no idea why. Let me rephrase that: I haven't come to any definitive conclusion as to why.

I think it's a good topic and I think all ideas are fair game (whether they sound sexist or not).

[Murphyx]

How did Dr Ameisen do it without severe side effects?

I would just like to correct one point. I didn't say that giving birth was "like having a big poo", I said it was "like having a really big poo". I think it's important to make that distinction.

Oh and the only women bleed thing just isn't true. Men bleed too if you stamp on their face. Trust me.

Carry on.