Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

I've got nothing to add atm, (at the moment, chef) but I like this thread and am invigorated by the discussion.
I am particularly curious whether or not we can find validity or disprove whether emotional anguish exacerbates SEs? Clearly that is not a gender issue. Or a psychosomatic issue. We all have baggage and it is unlikely to be measured by researchers.
(THAT would be an interesting questionnaire... Did your parents do x,y or z? How did that make you feel on a scale of 1-10... 1 being suicidal and 10 being homicidal?)
I am making a joke and definitely not trying to be insensitive.
But I think that is one facet of this discussion we are likely to tiptoe around... Who is more fucked up than whom and is that why they have more SEs?
As one who suffered mightily from SEs that were definitely NOT in my head, I would like to see this debated... Ha! But I'm feeling a little ... like a good debate.

[terryk]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

Otter;1083763 wrote:

As I understand it, the Baclofen molcule has two sides, the right side gives the therapeutic effect and the left side causes side effects, hence, Arbaclofen (R Baclofen) which will come out in 2013 (buy shares in Seaside Therapeutics). That, it seems to me is how this issue will be dealt with and you will be able to take one time released pill in the morning to last all day as it is 10 times more potent than Baclofen.

You are incorrect. There are 2 baclofen molecules, identical in every way except the "twist" in orientation (like a screw that can be left or right threaded). R-Baclofen (also confusingly known as L-Baclofen) is the mirror image of S-Baclofen. All of this is discussed in https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ncy-43742.html.

Otter, where did you come up with a dosing regimen for Arbaclofen? It seems to me that you state as fact on this forum an awful lot of unsubstantiated gleanings from *your* understanding of medicine and science. 1+1=2 but A+B doesn't always equal C.

-tk

[redhead77]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

I expected a little more from the peanut gallery, or should I just say the nut gallery? :H
I'm just kidding.

Turns out, the erectile dysfunction is a common side effect in male rats on high dose baclofen. I did a couple of hours of research today, on rat studies, since humans haven't been studied. We wouldn't want to have a small sample size now to argue that, would we?

[beatle]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

I think the same (I mean similar) side effect has been reported by women.

[Isolde]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

beatle;1083867 wrote: I think the same (I mean similar) side effect has been reported by women.

Well, in addition to ED for the guys, there has also been an inability to climax reported by both genders.

Can I just say that I think the whole psychosomatic thing is pretty much bullshit? The SEs are real. A lot of us have the same ones. Do people sometimes read about an SE and then think they have it even though they don't? Sure. And sometimes people experience something that they assume must be an SE of bac (regardless of whether or not they've read about someone else having it), and it turns out to be completely unrelated.
Is this all a side effect of too much information? Maybe. But I'd much rather have somewhere to come talk about it and research it and maybe find out that it's nothing! I remember when I first read about someone else not being able to climax because of bac. I was so friggin' relieved!! I had been totally convinced that I'd just lost my mojo, and it was rather disheartening!

I don't think age has anything to do with it. Maybe degree of alcohol/substance abuse plays some kind of role. And maybe sex does. Men and women are fundamentally different and process things differently (nod to NE). But you can also have completely different experiences between individuals of the same age and sex. Some people are more vocal about their SEs, some people imagine ones that aren't there, some people suck it up and push it down, and some just don't have many SEs to speak of. There's no definitive answer here.

Maybe I've just missed the point of what's trying to be sussed out here, but it kinda seems like pointless bickering to me. Or at least that appears to be what it's devolved into.

[ignominious]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

Many constructive and thought provoking replies here.

I think one hurdle that we have with talking about psychosomatic is the definition of the word. Some stigma may be attached to it; not real, imagined, not genuine, not serious. The word comes from the ancient Greek meaning literally 'mind/body'. It refers to illnesses that have their cause in the mind - the illness is real, the cause is in the mind.

Peptic ulcers are in every sense real and painful, more often nowadays they are found to be psychosomatic. Rather than treat the symptom with soothing medications, many doctors are suggesting ways that their patient can reduce stress. Breathing exercise, yoga, change in lifestyle. The reason for erectile dysfunction are numerous. It could be due to constriction of the blood vessels due to diabetes or it could be due to emotional reasons. I must have missed the part where the boards were covered with this discussion, I thought I was the only one!

There is no point, per se, but looking to the the root causes of the SEs can only lead to a better understanding of how bac is doing its job. I for one, now more fully understand that there may be differences in SEs due to gender and possibly menopause. There is no agenda and when discussing how the mind works, certainly their will be no conclusion .

[Bruunhilde]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

Gender Bender Over

Is this thread title and Igno's original post meant to say that because some people find baclofen at high doses dangerous (ref posts about driving with kids in the car (or not) while feeling it's dangerous due to extreme dizziness for example) or unmanageable (have to quit the job to titrate up), that they are likely imagining alot of it and don't have a positive enough attitude?

I think it's been pointed out that it's mostly women who have registered these complaints. Women are SO emotional you know. MAN UP! Oh, and it's mostly "women of a certain age" - huh. (Those are the ones with the courage to speak up!)

I have a memory of being in the doctor's office 30 years ago when they said cramps & PMS were all in our heads, being doubled over was unnecessary, it can't possibly be that bad. Even if you could feel your insides cramping with your hand on your belly. Or the doctors who told me "that side effect occurs only in 5% of cases so it's equal to placebo effect - it can't be the med." It must be your attitude your whiney sex or your age, I guess. I should have known to plan my gender better to avoid those SEs. Funny, because when I changed meds the problem went away. Maybe that was my imagination.

I notice the guys who DO suffer seriously with side effects are posting very hesitantly or rarely about them. The strong silent thing - don't want to appear whiners. I feel bad for them, if they need support, that they can't or won't post much about it. Perhaps they predicted they'd be accused of having a lousy attitude & a big imagination. Or worse, being called women. Of course, the non posting men could have "bac typing syndrome". But I think that mostly affects chicks because, well, see above.

Ignorance is not bliss and neither is this thread. Abort!

Men tolerate AL better than women, have fewer health issues in all the latest studies due to the same amount of drink. I think it's a fair parallel paradigm to meds. Women are bigger communicators generally, so you'll hear more about everything from women, not so much with the less fair sex. No pun there but interpret it as you like.

[Bruunhilde]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

Gender Bender Over

Is this thread title and Igno's original post meant to say that because some people find baclofen at high doses dangerous (ref posts about driving with kids in the car (or not) while feeling it's dangerous due to extreme dizziness for example) or unmanageable (have to quit the job to titrate up), that they are likely imagining alot of it and don't have a positive enough attitude?

I think it's been pointed out that it's mostly women who have registered these complaints. Women are SO emotional you know. MAN UP! Oh, and it's mostly "women of a certain age" - huh. (Those are the ones with the courage to speak up!)

I have a memory of being in the doctor's office 30 years ago when they said cramps & PMS were all in our heads, being doubled over was unnecessary, it can't possibly be that bad. Even if you could feel your insides cramping with your hand on your belly. Or the doctors who told me "that side effect occurs only in 5% of cases so it's equal to placebo effect - it can't be the med." It must be your attitude your whiney sex or your age, I guess. I should have known to plan my gender better to avoid those SEs. Funny, because when I changed meds the problem went away. Maybe that was my imagination.

I notice the guys who DO suffer seriously with side effects are posting very hesitantly or rarely about them. The strong silent thing - don't want to appear whiners. I feel bad for them, if they need support, that they can't or won't post much about it. Perhaps they predicted they'd be accused of having a lousy attitude & a big imagination. Or worse, being called women. Of course, the non posting men could have "bac typing syndrome". But I think that mostly affects chicks because, well, see above.

Ignorance is not bliss and neither is this thread. Abort!

Men tolerate AL better than women, have fewer health issues in all the latest studies due to the same amount of drink. I think it's a fair parallel paradigm to meds. Women are bigger communicators generally, so you'll hear more about everything from women, not so much with the less fair sex. No pun there but interpret it as you like.

[ignominious]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

The title says what it says Brun.
I find your point of view interesting and therefore am starting a new thread.

[bleep]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

The title is telling, and has been ignored for the most part. Psychosomatic INFLUENCES...

Nobody is claiming that the SE's aren't real. I personally think they may be being made worse by constant focusing on them. If you think you have a headache, can almost feel it, search for it, believe you have it, search a little more... you end up finding it, whether or not there was a headache there to begin with. One of my first posts about SE's concerned the stoned feeling - I said something along the lines of it was there, but if I focused on it, suddenly I was very stoned, and a similar principle applies to a lot of the SE's.

Some of the SE's are there, flat out there, no psycho whatever's to them - reds erectile dysfunction being one of them (sad to report that it's back ), but a lot of them, I think, are enhanced by the nocebo effect.

Why this is so controversial, and makes people think I am trying to discourage talk of SE's confuses the life out of me. I have been very open about all the SE's I experienced, and see no reason why others shouldn't. It was a source of great comfort knowing what to expect on the way up, and a resource I was very glad to have.

Nor do I think that discussing whether women have a harder time than men hitting the switch is a counterproductive discussion. But various members here were almost flat out stating that pre-menopausal women WOULD NOT hit the switch, no matter what, and were guaranteed a terrible ride, despite evidence to the contrary, and that sort of thing I think is very foolish to say. Again, I am accused of trying to suppress information because of this stance, which further confuses me.

Attitude, despite its being cursorily dismissed, I believe plays a larger role in this than we give it credit for. There are 2 ways to interpret the stoned feeling, for example. You can giggle to yourself, and enjoy your day, or you can curse baclofen and push through the feeling, hoping it leaves. How you choose to interpret the feeling is up to you, and applies to a lot of the SE's. Obviously only the perverse amongst us get a thrill out of a good vomit, but the principle remains.

Whether or not women have a more torrid time of it (I sincerely hope they don't, and remain unconvinced it's the case, although am open to idea's. We simply have too small a data set from which to work to draw any conclusions) or not, I think everyone should remain a little more open than their current stance. Each person seems to have dug their hole and won't move out of it, no matter what, which doesn't make this a debate or a discussion, it makes it an argument, and one for which I don't really have the time or inclination to address. I could see the silence being taken as further suppression of information though, in some strange way, so wanted to come in and let everyone know that I think everything about baclofen should be disclosed, good or bad, and remain very confused as to where people got any other impression.

[bleep]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

Just to add to that tome: I think Bruun got it right that this thread should die. This us and them attitude that has recently sprung up can not be a good thing, surely? Or is that just me?

[Isolde]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

bleep;1083906 wrote: Just to add to that tome: I think Bruun got it right that this thread should die. This us and them attitude that has recently sprung up can not be a good thing, surely? Or is that just me?
I concur. That's the part of this discussion that I didn't see worth pursuing.

ignominious;1083878 wrote:
There is no point, per se, but looking to the the root causes of the SEs can only lead to a better understanding of how bac is doing its job. I for one, now more fully understand that there may be differences in SEs due to gender and possibly menopause. There is no agenda and when discussing how the mind works, certainly their will be no conclusion .

^ This I can get behind. Not the "versus" aspect that seems to keep coming up in all threads related to this subject.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

agreed. Can we do the fun stuff on the new thread and the serious stuff on the Ladies thread? I would like a place to explore this without the 'us vs them' thing or the light-hearted jabs thing.

I'm all for fun, for sure, but I want to stay sober too. Most important to me...

[Guest]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

I got a bit fed up when I was pretty sure Baclofen had caused a few specific side effects for me, but no-one would accept it was the Baclofen. They suggested everything but Baclofen. I'm not daft and had already gone through the other options, ruling them out before posting. Despite how I come across, I'm intelligent and from a scientific background, someone who has read a little on health, biology and chemistry(which was my main passion at one point). I don't jump and and attribute a side effect without careful consideration.

I've also been gathering evidence from speaking to health professionals informally that backs up my ideas these SEs are a result of the action of baclofen. I've also noticed since I dropped my dosing a little some of these side effects have eased. I don't want to detail some of the ones I have noticed over time, because I know there is at least one member who has had the opposite happen and who would say "Look at me, I'm an example that doesn't happen". In the meantime I'm just going to collate my own evidence, plus tomorrow is the day I tell my GP(that's my personal Dr for those in the states!). I'll be asking her about one or two side effects I am pretty sure are down to the Baclofen, and I shall report back.

[ignominious]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

Alcoholism itself in many ways could be classed as psychosomatic. We have a certain way of thinking that makes us drink to excess.

This is what psychosomatic illness is about and this is where the fight is when we try to get alcoholism taken seriously as a disease and not due to a weak will power or lack of moral fibre.
None of us would dismiss alcoholism as imaginary or not a real problem.

The amazing thing about Baclofen is that OA has discovered how to treat this psychosomatic illness biologically rather than with talk and counseling.

Psychosomatic is not a dirty word. It refers to disorders that involve the mind and the body. The symptoms experience by the sufferers are real in every sense but they have no physiological basis. I'm not sure I agree completely with that but for the time being it is a fairly useful definition.

I found this interesting:
What Causes Psychosomatic Illnesses?

Psychosomatic illness: The mind influences the body to create or exacerbate illness.
Definition from Psychosomatic illness definition - Medical Dictionary definitions of popular medical terms easily defined on MedTerms