Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

[Otter]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

Gee, where are we going with this?

So, we have an illness which is caused by the "mind", which presumably is something which floats about in the ether, like fairies and angels.

We cannot treat this "mind" so, instead, we find a chemical, Baclofen which "tweeks" some part of the brain and the illness goes away, but we haven't really treated the illness at all because it is all in this "mind" which ultimately cannot be treated because it has no physiological "existence".

So, Bac is just a huge "placebo" then.

Hmmm....

Sounds a bit daft to me.

I somehow don't think Ameisen would be with you on this one. I have a funny feeling he might think that Baclofen replaces endgenous GHB which is a chemical our body produces to calm part of the brain, ie., the GABA B receptor which is somehow connected to the amygdala.

Just a hunch.

[ignominious]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

Otter, I don't agree that "mind" equates to "either, fairies and angels". Constructive criticism not inflammatory is always useful in a discussion.

Alcoholism has traditionally been classed as a character defect whereas it has always been a psychosomatic illness. It has been grudgingly granted status as a disease and treatment, therapy, has increasingly become available. NOW, Here we have living proof that it is a biological diseasse which is treatable by a chemical called baclofen.

Other diseases are classed as psychosomatic, this doesn't make them any less real. If you google psychosomatic the definitions invariably mention that the illness is not imaginary or made up. I think the same type of thinking has kept alcoholism from being taken seriously as a disease.

Other diseases are classed as psychosomatic - they are also not "all in the mind" (your words not mine), the symptoms are just as real and painful. It really means that medical science doesn't understand the workings of the brain enough.

The first step in addressing these illnesses is to face the fact that they are real. Labeling them as psychosomatic is a useful way of saying that 'they originate in the brain but we don't understand the exact sequence of chemical reactions'. IMO it is still a better classification than, 'your imagination is doing it'.

OA had the hunch, not you, that alcoholism could be treated chemically. We have the benefit of seeing his idea being put into practice. Ultimately the diagnosis, psychosomatic', will become obsolete as we understand the exact workings of the brain. We will be able to get drugs to treat many conditions, to make us more intelligent and to make us model citizens. Biological computers will become a reality and we will have created a brain. I think that reality is some time off and for the present I think the word psychosomatic should be embraced rather than feared.

I hope you can see there is some validity here despite having over simplified and overstated here.

[ignominious]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

I'd also like to add that the title includes sex and age as well as psychosomatic not because I wanted to lump them all together but because I feel that they are separate issues worthy of discussion.

[beatle]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

Firstly, I want to apologize, Ig, because I wrote something on your "Sobriety..." thread that was not meant to address the contents of that thread. It referred to another thread that I can't find atm.

[beatle]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

Secondly, not sure about this...

ignominious;1085642 wrote: I'd also like to add that the title includes sex and age as well as psychosomatic not because I wanted to lump them all together but because I feel that they are separate issues worthy of discussion.

[ignominious]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

You're forgiven Beatle, no problems. I hope you forgive the unexplained smiley (still can't get those things to work) I left on your thread!


I'm not sure what you're not sure about:
I think people assumed that I was combining gender issues with psychosomatic issues. I wasn't ftr. I think there will be some distinctions in SEs which are loosely connected to each issue.

[coalfire]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

ignominious;1085640 wrote:

Alcoholism has traditionally been classed as a character defect whereas it has always been a psychosomatic illness. .

I can see that you feel strongly about......something but Im struggling to follow what that something actually is.

I wont go near the Baclofen part. I will just keep to the alcoholism part.When someone uses the word psychosomatic it usually means that the patient has developed an illness because of the power of suggestion or other underlying emotional cause. If your friend starts to talk about head lice then you may find yourself starting to scratch your head furiously.
Another example would be bad breath. Dentists have found that many people who are convinced that they have halitosis are actually clinically depressed.
If our alcoholism was caused by underlying emotional reasons and was actually a psychosomatic illness then what a wonderful thing it would be. We could rush down and make a dozen or so appointments with a psychologist or a psychotherapist and then in 6 months or so we could all be drinking normally.It would just be a case of tackling the underlying emotional reasons that were causing the psychosomatic illness. We all know that that will never work and there is a good reason for that. Alcoholism is not a psychosomatic illness. It is a biological one.When I introduce any alcohol into my system my brain starts to crave more in an overwhelming way. It wouldn't matter whether I was coming out of a funeral or coming out from the lottery office with my million euro cheque.It didn't matter whether I was in my 20's or in my 30's. I have had a drink in several continents.I have had a drink on some of the best days of my life. I have had a drink on some of the worst.It doesn't matter. For me anyway drink=massive and certain craving for more. In other words there is no emotional reason why my brain responds the way it does.You know the way litmus paper always turns pink when you dip it in acid? Well if you "dip" my brain in alcohol it will crave more.You might as well say that the litmus paper is turning pink because of psychosomatic reasons.When the medical people describe someones illness as psychosomatic they mean that although the symptoms are very real they are caused by underlying emotional reasons and therefore an actual disease can be outruled.No operation,antibiotics etc are required.I have posted this article a few times this week because it seems to fit a few discussions I have been having.NEWLY IDENTIFIED GENES, NEW DRUGS, SPELL HOPE FOR ALCHOLICS | Lawyers Wellbeing Blog

Read about the dopamine. There is nothing psychosomatic about that. That is as real as the litmus paper/acid reaction.I dont know about the Baclofen SE's but there is nothing psychosomatic about alcoholism or at least not the type I have anyway.

[ignominious]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

I don't agree that autosuggestion is the same as psychosomatic i.e. scratching your head, I do agree that psychosomatic is largely a result of emotions.

Until recently, good treatment for alcoholism involved therapists and psychologists. It is only with neuroscience that we are now beginning to understand how the brain works.

I have already looked at many of the articles you have posted. All interesting and not spam.

The amygdala is the brain's major center for processing emotional events
How The Brain Controls Emotions

I would suggest that maybe dopamine and psychosomatics go hand in hand. You cannot discuss one without shedding light on the other.

[coalfire]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

ignominious;1085728 wrote: I don't agree that autosuggestion is the same as psychosomatic i.e. scratching your head,.

Well general medical opinion does not agree with you.Psychosomatic illness Articles and Information


If you think that dopamine production and psychosomatic should be used in the same sentence then there is nothing more I can say to you.You could search the world over and you wont find a single medical person to agree with you.If you don't accept that then... I don't know what else to say.

[coalfire]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

"I would suggest that maybe dopamine and psychosomatics go hand in hand. You cannot discuss one without shedding light on the other".[/QUOTE]-Ig


Sorry IG.That is actually painful to read.:eeks:

[coalfire]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

This is an image of dopamine production

Dopamine and Parkinson Disease - Neurologic Disease Information


As you can see it is as real as a heartbeat. A Psychosomatic illness/symptom/process is imaginary.
'
If your domapine production was pychosomatic(ie imaginary) ,you wouldn't be reading this. You would be dead because dopamine production is necessary for life itself. If a living human being was found with only psychosomatic/imaginary dopamine production then they would be the leading article on every news station in the world. Scientists in the thousands would flock to study them.It would be a first for mankind.

[Guest]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

I have a good idea what Ig is actually getting at. I think it's to do with the biochemistry of the brain affecting our thought processes.

Baclofen slows me down, has made some important areas of my life difficult. This has resulted in me becoming withdrawn and depressed. Baclofen hasn't caused the depression itself, but my body and brain's reaction to Baclofen's direct side effects has lead to depression.

[coalfire]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

If thats what he is saying then there is no disagreement from me over that.It certainly does.I only had issue with two things.

1 That alcoholism is a psychosomatic illness.
2 Dopamine production is psychosomatic

The problem is trying to decide exactly what he IS saying.The discussion is hopping like a frog.

[Guest]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

I think alcoholism is a very complicated illness biochemistry plays as part, as do genetics as well as the way in which we feedback on ourselves.

You might fix the chemical problem, but the urges to drink excessively might still be there. This is me at my switch. I don't physically crave or want alcohol, I am what some call 'indifferent'. If I have a stressful day, someone presses the wrong button for me, or I simply have a lot of time on my hands then the urge to drink comes on me. It's quite frustrating since I don't want to drink - I don't want the substance, nor the feeling it gives me. My body/biochemistry isn't craving it.

YET

My brain is still operating in a dysfunctional way, and wants it's release. It just can't have it though because I'm just not interested. Baclofen can't help with this.

Alcoholism for me was a mixture of coping behaviours, self-harm as well as biochemical and I don't know where they came from or in which order.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

I don't have time to give this the attention it needs, and am surely going to regret weighing in without the proper material.

I'm not sure what the purpose of the question, if there is one, is.

If, in fact, it's to get to the bottom of why some of us experience more dramatic SEs than others, than I believe we would be best served comparing and contrasting experiences.

Suggesting psychosomatic responses is pejorative. Especially coming from someone who did not experience SEs but is looking to dismiss those SEs as a function of mental illness unrelated to bac or alcoholism.
Insulting. Degrading. Irresponsible. Pretentious. Self-aggrandizing. Misogynist. Counterintuitive. Dismissive of other's experience. Dismissive of actual science and research.

Conveniently there is no way to prove or disprove a diagnosis of psychosomatism. It has been used time out of mind as a tool to 'treat' or dismiss certain unexplained illness. From 'hysteria' in the 19th century, to homosexuality in the mid-20th century, to ulcers in the late 20th century.

Not to mention alcoholism itself.

I call foul, Ig. Any thoughtful discussion can be dismissed easily by those following the train of thought that we are defensive or delusional or unwilling to be introspective.
I fundamentally disagree, and not so humbly suggest that the opposite is true.

I'm willing and able to back my position up with actual science/extensive anecdotal evidence and not Freudian psychological diagnoses that were discredited for the most part 50 or 60 years ago with a couple of very notable exceptions.

But my time is limited and I'm finding it difficult to waste it on this knowing full well that I'm likely to be dismissed as an empty mind with too much optimism and a seductive nature.

Whatever.

This thread sucks. It's full of disingenuous thought, rambling and ranting and snide and snarky comments. I'm looking to help others and in so doing I have to thoroughly dismiss this psychosomatic-bullshit-diagnosis that is thrown around on threads when people are SUFFERING through nothing more than well-documented SEs that can be found by actually reading the rat research, but also right here on MWO throughout the history of bac on MWO.

(case in point, there are two people who are active on the other forum. They are having two very distinct and different reactions to bac. No mass hysteria, suggestive conditioning to be found... I repeat: This thread and this line of questioning is BULLSHIT and born of self-indulgent malevolence. Yep. I said it. Bring it on.)

EDIT: Apologies to those who have given considered and thoughtful responses on here and redirected the conversation to something that might actually be useful.