Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

[coalfire]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

:applaud:

[beatle]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

I agree with Ne.

And have been stewing on it for some time, using far too much of my time and my mental energy on it.

There was another thread, I think I recall, about gender and SEs that I can't find now in which many other, even more outrageous insinuations/suggestions, and completely ungrounded postulations were made, that were, to quote Ne:

" Insulting. Degrading. Irresponsible. Pretentious. Self-aggrandizing. Misogynist. Counterintuitive. Dismissive of other's experience. Dismissive of actual science and research."

I can't find it right now. But will go back later, when I have time, and pluck out some of the posts I am talking about, and cut them up with a knife if I have time. :bomb: I've already done a lot of the work in my head.

Back to work.

[TracyA]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

Ne/Neva Eva;1085804 wrote: This thread and this line of questioning is BULLSHIT and born of self-indulgent malevolence. Yep. I said it. Bring it on.

And the other threads where this subject is referenced in a supposedly amusing fashion are not helpful either. It was a bad idea from the get-go that has already had negative impact on people's willingness to post at all (with a nod to Taw).

And if you buy into the idea that alcoholism is psychosomatic, you are bound to wind up concluding that some races are more apt to imagine illness into being, since some races are more vulnerable to alcoholism than others. It's a bad place to go . . .

[ignominious]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

There are too many insults and false assumptions to address all of them.

I'll just say once more

Psychosomatic doesn't mean imaginary

[coalfire]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

Ig. I think this is the problem. When someone complains of symptoms then those symptoms are very real so no those symptoms are not imaginary but the underlying disease they think they have IS IS IS IS IS if its psychosomatic.
So if I said I have breast pain so I have breast cancer because I have been reading about it a lot then the pain is real but the cancer is imaginary(provided the tests were negative)
So the cancer is all in my head.When you tell someone that their symptoms are psychosomatic then you are saying to them-"Yeah,sure I know you feel you have those symptoms but its all in your head" Thats how the word psychosomatic is understood and used worldwide except apparently in IG land which is very very very frustrating for the rest of us. Here is another few lines from a medical article.


"Sometimes a physical symptom is a metaphor for the person's psychological problem, as when a person with a "broken heart" experiences chest pain. Other times, a physical symptom reflects identification with another person's pain.

Some people also use the term psychosomatic disorder when mental factors cause physical symptoms , but where there is no physical disease. For example, a chest pain may be caused by stress, and no physical disease is can be found"

[TracyA]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

ignominious;1085946 wrote: There are too many insults and false assumptions to address all of them.

I'll just say once more

Don't bother. To say a physical illness is caused by emotion is to say that a physical illness is caused by thoughts, which is to say a physical illness is caused by imagination (you might have noticed - thoughts are not a physical reality, not even your thoughts). What you are attempting to do - no matter how you care to define it - is point out that people are imagining side effects into existence. That is the point of this very poorly thought-out thread, which should die for the good of the people who post here.

[ignominious]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

Please Coalfire step back from your stance for a second

Psychosomatic illness is very easy too google and the definition of psychosomatic generally stresses the point that it is not imaginary and that the symptoms are real. With this in mind it might be worth reconsidering what I suggested.

[Guest]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

I still think I have a good idea what Ig is getting at. Like you say Coalfire, accepted use of the word is imaginary illness.

What Ig is referring to is illnesses occuring indirectly as a result of something else. Such as the depression I've reported -isn't caused by the Bac itself, but as a result of how I've taken the side effects(or not).

Some people are having certain things happen which aren't on the list of side effects, but are still a consequence of their Baclofen intake. Since it's easy to say "Well Baclofen doesn't cause that", the sufferer feels sidelined. Whereas instead we could be saying "Hang on, perhaps it's this effect that Baclofen is having that could be causing the issues you are experiencing". Remember this can be positive or negative effects too.

[coalfire]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

Ok cos Im as stubborn as you are!! The symptoms are real. You are 100% correct. I think I see whats going wrong here. Do you think that I/we are saying that the symptoms of psychosomatic illness are not real? No way. They are real so we have a breakthrough. I agree with you 100%. A person who complains of symptoms is probably telling the truth.
Now you stand back. If the illness is psychosomatic then it doesn't really exist.It has been conjured up by a persons thought processes no matter how real those symptoms are.

So if I go into hospital and say I have breast pain and I want treatment for my breast cancer then the doc will believe my pain yes but wont believe my cancer.The pain is not imaginary but the cancer is.Likewise if you say to someone your Baclofen induced insomnia is psychosomatic then you are saying to them yes you feel tired but the fact that you think its down to Baclofen is all in your head. Then people get mad. My advice is to drop the word psychosomatic and ask specific questions re SE's. For example you could say I have constipation on Bac does anyone else.?Then that way people are likely to work out by themselves if something is a true Baclofen side effect or not.The word psychosomatic is too emotive and however you feel about the textbook definition you have to accept how the word is used in the western world.

[Guest]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

I'm with you on this one Coalfire.

Some of the SEs I've reported, and there are more to report but I hold back because everyone will say "That's not an SE of Baclofen", well if you look at how Baclofen works those coincidental SEs are quite logical.

I've not had the constipation SE. I can say however that alcohol is a laxative, and when most people stop drinking or cut back constipation often occurs. So is it a Baclofen, or quitting AL SE?Then again Baclofen can lead to dehydration, and muscle relaxation. Both of which are going to affect bowel function.

[ignominious]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

OK now we agree on the real meaning of the word psychosomatic.

I think that you cannot ignore the affect that thinking about the SEs will have on the SEs

[Guest]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

Har de Har

I didn't think about the SEs at all. I took baclofen thinking "I'll show em", in a sort of self-harming type way that my drinking always took. I had an idea there were side effects, and I did read up on a few a month or two before taking the plunge, but didn't really imprint them on my brain. To me side effects are something printed on a leaflet for supplements or medication that tend not to happen. I usually ignore them unless they have an interaction with something else - such as if I was taking the contraceptive pill, or would make me dangerous to drive. I know not to drive if I don't feel right, whatever it may be (illness, tiredness or intoxication/medication).

[ignominious]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

Some SEs may be exaggerated by thinking about them too much.

I was wrong in my earlier post about autosuggestion and luckily had the decision not debate single points in future taken away from me!

Without in anyway making light of it if everybody on MWO is talking about itchy heads when they reach 120mg/day then its fairly likely you will look for that when you reach that dose.

Please don't quote my previous post where I said that power of suggestion was nothing to do with psychosomatics. It's not really important, I wont fail and you won't get a prize. If you do I shall stomp off and not talk to you!

[beatle]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

ignominious;1085986 wrote: OK now we agree on the real meaning of the word psychosomatic.

I think that you cannot ignore the affect that thinking about the SEs will have on the SEs

Do you mean a negative affect on the SEs, which is what you seem to be insinuating.

If we don't think about the SEs, they will go away, or lessen?

In which case I could not disagree more.

If we don't discuss them, we may quit, because we feel our experiences are so bad and so isolated that we must be an anomaly, and lose faith. I certainly would have if I hadn't read extensively about SEs here. In fact I was ready to, because all I had read was OA's book and raving reviews here on MWO about bac. I was certain my VERY real SEs were not normal. Because my VERY real SEs, that I had NEVER thought existed, occurred unexpectedly and alarmingly. Should I not have thought about them then?

When I read here about other people's SEs, sometimes I think "Aha, so I'm not such a weirdo, this person has this, too... and they are not quitting" or "Wow, now there's an SE I've never had, aren't I lucky?" or "I have that SE too, but not that badly" etc. Thinking about them has NEVER caused me to either cause them into being or to worsen them.

So you see, thinking about SEs kept me from quitting bac. Perhaps in my case that could be a negative effect at the moment, but I'm pretty sure it will have been a positive effect at the conclusion

And remember, you encourage people to talk about their SEs, say you think it is important -- and then you say thinking about them causes SEs or worsens them. According to your logic, you are encouraging people to talk about, and cause others to think about SEs, so that they can get worse SEs.

I think you've backed yourself into a corner.

It's time to think, instead of wildly defending yourself.

[beatle]

Sex, Age, Psychosomatic Influences on SEs of Baclofen

ignominious;1086004 wrote: Some SEs may be exaggerated by thinking about them too much.
I couldn't disagree more. The more we think about them, the more we realize what they are and where they are coming from, and the better we can cope with them.

ignominious;1086004 wrote: Without in anyway making light of it if everybody on MWO is talking about itchy heads when they reach 120mg/day then its fairly likely you will look for that when you reach that dose.

Look for it? I think "be prepared for it" would be more accurate. But experience it, fabricate it, intensify it because you are looking for it? I think you may be underestimating the intellectual abilities of the people on this forum and overestimating the brain's ability to cause unwanted symptoms.

ignominious;1086004 wrote: Please don't quote my previous post where I said that power of suggestion was nothing to do with psychosomatics. It's not really important, I wont fail and you won't get a prize. If you do I shall stomp off and not talk to you!

Then how does this relate to your stance on psychosomatics? I'm getting confused.