Things that make you go hmmm.....are the low dosers on to something?

[PbarE]

I was drawn to baclofen by a video. Everyone who has spent any time on this thread has surely seen it. For those who haven’t, you can watch it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byain0Vo5mo[/video]]BACLOFEN ANTI-CRAVING VIDEO

It offers powerful and irrefutable visual evidence that baclofen works. With Dr. Anna Childress of the University of Pennsylvania narrating, we are shown two brain scans of a crack addict; pre-bac and post-bac. In the pre-bac video, the subject’s brain lights up like a Christmas tree when his cravings are triggered by an environmental cue. In the post-bac cue, the same cues produce barely a whisper in the brain.

I was watching this video the other night, and something jumped out at me that I either never noticed or sub-consciously ignored – those amazing results were achieved in seven days! (It mentions this at the 1:56 mark of the video)

Even following an aggressive titration schedule, this means a mere 60-80 mgs produced this change in the brain. I think that is wonderful news for all of us and offers some much needed hope for some of us.

Nothing is more heartbreaking than to see an MWO member taking massive amounts of bac and grow frustrated because he/she can’t seem to hit “The Switch”. Others think they have hit it, and then question this and grow despondent. Growing desperate, they then take even more bac. I fall in the latter category. There are times when I am sure I hit “The Switch” at 280 mgs. There are other times when I am sure I am on a unicorn safari.

In light of the video, I now question whether that really matters. Here is proof that our frontal lobes “wake up” at lower doses, and rather quickly. Some will say this subject hit his switch at a low level. My gut tells me it is more than that. As I look back, I got the greatest benefit from bac around 80 mgs.

However, the restored frontal lobe is like a muscle that has atrophied. It has to undergo rehab so I can make healthy choices. Whether that comes through therapy such as CBT or EMDR, the 12 steps, or a combination of the two, that is a personal choice.

As an aside, I have serious questions about how much bac per day a person can safely take. The only thing I have read, from a medical professional, was a blurb in OA’s book where one of his colleagues told him not to go over 300 mgs a day. I know some of you have gone over this amount. Is there something out there where a doctor says it is safe to take more than this amount? If so, I really need to see it.

[tiptronic_ct]

Things that make you go hmmm.....are the low dosers on to something?

Hey, PbE

There are a number of people on MWO who take low doses of bac as a craving suppressant. They use it alongside other tools to help them remain AF, and it's fantastic that it works for them. It's the same as taking something like Campral, I guess.

However: YES, the switch does matter. Emphatically so. There is a huge difference between manageable cravings and the total absence thereof. Indifference is incredibly powerful...

As for the safety of baclofen at high doses: I don't think it poses any significant danger in itself. Just don't be an idiot like me and drive to work after 48 hours without sleep and 270mg coursing through your veins. Now that I'm using "legal" baclofen (i.e. prescribed by a doctor) I've read the package insert rather than the extensive list of possible interations and the like published on the internet - there really is very little risk.

[PbarE]

Things that make you go hmmm.....are the low dosers on to something?

tiptronic_ct;1086590 wrote: Hey, PbE

There are a number of people on MWO who take low doses of bac as a craving suppressant. They use it alongside other tools to help them remain AF, and it's fantastic that it works for them. It's the same as taking something like Campral, I guess.

However: YES, the switch does matter. Emphatically so. There is a huge difference between manageable cravings and the total absence thereof. Indifference is incredibly powerful...

As for the safety of baclofen at high doses: I don't think it poses any significant danger in itself. Just don't be an idiot like me and drive to work after 48 hours without sleep and 270mg coursing through your veins. Now that I'm using "legal" baclofen (i.e. prescribed by a doctor) I've read the package insert rather than the extensive list of possible interations and the like published on the internet - there really is very little risk.

Thanks, Tip. That is exactly the type of input I was looking for. I am thinking of weaning all the way off, and then coming at it again in a more sane and reasonable way.I would love to have indifference, but manageable cravings will work for now. I have been apprehensive to go above 300 mg without an authoratative source telling me it is safe to do so.

And I backed into my mailbox when I was 180 mgs.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Things that make you go hmmm.....are the low dosers on to something?

The questions you raise have been very much on my mind, Pbar.

I found great benefit at 120-160mg/day.

I never experienced a switch. I have and continue to have complete indifference. I don't know at what level I would have achieved this had I been looking, or had I waited at a certain level. The video you re-posted was the impetus for my decision to just. not. drink. on February 4th. It was remarkably easy!

It's counterintuitive to the messages we read and hear here, and in OA's book.
That said, I'm decidedly uncomfortable taking 3 times the recommended amount of bac for a length of time yet to be determined. I have also not read anything about the safety of that. Also, I think it is important to remember that baclofen is often prescribed at hefty doses for people with a lot of other very challenging medical problems. I would like to enjoy my new-found freedom for a good long, healthy, life...

I look forward to other people's thoughts.

FTR, If I were a newbie, I'd go for the switch/indifference! I'd do it ALL again to get to where I am.

[TracyA]

Things that make you go hmmm.....are the low dosers on to something?

Maybe the switch is important for other reasons. Maybe just knowing how it feels; literally, learning what it feels like to not care about booze.

As an example, a common treatment for phobias is repeated exposure to the thing feared. Eventually, the dread fades away and the scary thing is seen only as the thing it actually is. People with phobias learn what feels like not to be afraid of the thing, and that's where their empowerment comes from. Depression can be similar. Someone spends years of his/her life depressed before hitting on a med that is effective in treating the depression. The person then knows what it feels like not to be depressed, so that knowledge becomes more powerful that the drug itself.

The sentence that Lo0p wrote yesterday about going to sleep, stone sober, while staring at a bottle of vodka would be an incredibly powerful experience for many of us, especially if was repeated like in the examples above. I wonder if the importance in reaching the switch is just having that experience and seeing first-hand that booze is just another thing in life (no more important than a can of tomato soup). Maybe the resulting post-switch empowerment comes from knowing what it feels like not to want it and not to be afraid of it. Perhaps that explains why it is possible to reduce the dose after a while, and why it’s possible for some people to reduce it quite dramatically?

[bleep]

Things that make you go hmmm.....are the low dosers on to something?

Ne, are not the switch and indifference the same thing?

I agree with Tip - there comes a point you reach where deciding to be AF or not is effortless. At that point, it's not even a decision anymore, Until that point, baclofen has a role, certainly, as an anti craving aid, and is effective in that role, but it's true beauty and beneficial effect is felt once indifference has been reached.

Whether you can then titrate down safely is another question entirely, I think.

I'll try dig up some of the early studies I read - I'm sure patients were on 300mg's and higher for extended periods. I've taken over 500mg's and there were no immediate ill effects, but who knows about long term? As far as I recall, no long term damages accrue from baclofen. I'm pressed for time right now, but I'll see what I can find later.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Things that make you go hmmm.....are the low dosers on to something?

I logged on again to delete my post. But I was too slow!

It's completely incongruous for me to doubt, to express any sort of hesitation!

I often forget where I was! How desperate I was, how that beast had me buried up to the neck. :upset:

How DARE I? I'm free of the beast and the burden. I'd do it all again, and take more, to get here. Truly. It's THAT good. It's so good, I've already forgotten what it's like to be the other person.

I really need a daily reminder of that. Where the hell are the newbies???

[redhead77]

Things that make you go hmmm.....are the low dosers on to something?

Here. I might be a mid level newbie now. Getting ready to graduate. I had an immediate change in my drinking with bac. I often say, if someone stopped me from going higher, I would still be doing some damage control. That being said, it's still not enough.

I am still in search of the switch. I think it's out there and I prefer not to spend my life drinking too much on occasion, or white knuckling this to any degree. Small doses might quiet the brain, but something else more profound must occur with indifference. I thought 2 days ago that the switch might be knocking on my door. Um, nope. Had a crappy day yesterday, and I managed to drink too much last night. It still happens. I want it to stop. :new:

[Bruunhilde]

Things that make you go hmmm.....are the low dosers on to something?

I think Tracy's right, Red, and good observation by you - I know others are watching and thinking the same thing about low dose.

I went up to 80 and had to go right back down, but I can't say I don't have lots of cravings for AL daily. I'm staying AF because of the following to which bac is a contributer but not a real deterrent in as much as taking a pill makes me indifferent or not wish I could have something.

1. My body bottomed out a few times a couple months ago and i thought I was dying due to alcohol. Big contributer.
2. Massive wakeup ensued that was cooking in my head previously for several years which included
-needing my second half of life to be outside the grips of AL;
-a friend had two hips and two knees replaced because she had the same foot problem I have and exercise only made it worse. Weight makes it even more of a problem, and I don't want to be in a walker in ten years.
-shock of turning 50 in a little over a year has been a huge motivator
3. I'm AF on a diet that doesn't allow for AL or sugar/carbs etc. So my sugar monster is being supressed or controlled which is also my AL monster of course since AL is all sugar.
4. XANAX HELPS me avoid drinking; when I'm obsessing and anxious about AL, the xanax is miraculous.

I cannot say low dose bac helps me avoid panic attacks but I do think it helps with low grade anxiety. That in turn helps me control my drinking and eating.

[Otter]

Things that make you go hmmm.....are the low dosers on to something?

I think this is right. You have to take low individual doses. The whole idea is that you are replacing a brain chemical and those are released at very low doses. Taking for instance a 10 mg pill once a day is just not the way brain chemicals work. Take a very small amount, a quarter of a pill, not too much to give you any side effects. It will wear off after four hours so then take another and so on. Then you increase very very slowly so that you get no side effects at all but eventually you repair the damage and stop the craving.

[spacebebe01]

Things that make you go hmmm.....are the low dosers on to something?

As I have said Ive havent started bac yet, am still waiting for my 1st pacage to come in the post, but I have used campral of and on for 4 years, when I say of and on I mean I took it as prescribed while AF but as soon as I started drinking I didnt bother taking it until I stopped drinking again, I have been going on benders lasting between 1 week and 3 months. For me canpral did take the edge off the cravings but did not entirely suppress them. That was obviously not enough for me.

[Lo0p]

Things that make you go hmmm.....are the low dosers on to something?

That was with a different drug and it was one person.