The Law relating to Baclofen Prescription

[Otter]

The Law relating to Baclofen Prescription

Bump

So we can see what the ethical and legal position is on baclofen and we can also see how we just keep going round in circles on this forum.

The problem then becomes that some people who don't understand the position but just hang around here long enough distort the position so that others don't even have the courage to speak to their own doctors about getting a prescription.

It is shocking when you think about it, that there are people here misleading others so they are afraid of asking their doctor to give them the help they need because the doctor might feel "harassed".

Shame on you!

[Ne/Neva Eva]

The Law relating to Baclofen Prescription

Otter;1677868 wrote: Bump

So we can see what the ethical and legal position is on baclofen and we can also see how we just keep going round in circles on this forum.

The problem then becomes that some people who don't understand the position but just hang around here long enough distort the position so that others don't even have the courage to speak to their own doctors about getting a prescription.

It is shocking when you think about it, that there are people here misleading others so they are afraid of asking their doctor to give them the help they need because the doctor might feel "harassed".

Shame on you!

Who, exactly, is suggesting that people will not find their doctors amenable to prescribing baclofen? Not me. In fact, just the opposite is true. I have maintained from the very beginning that everyone should attempt to speak with their doctors about taking HDB and I've helped to make sure that they have the information they need to do it. Personally and privately, and on this board publicly.

I am fairly certain that you know how to read, and that you are capable of connecting pieces of information together, and yet you consistently and repeatedly misrepresent or misunderstand what is actually being said and done. I'm not sure how to help you with that, Otter.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

The Law relating to Baclofen Prescription

This is actually funny. There is an entire thread in which I have posted repeatedly that I thought that rather than discouraging people from approaching their doctors (because the thread is that doctors won't do anything), we should arm them with information and help them to get the help they need and deserve.

We have the same goals, Otter. But one of us is an asshole. I don't care which one, just so long as people can make up their own minds about it. Which means I'm not going to let you get away with posting the misinformation on your new website here on MWO. Come what may.

[Samandkatharine]

The Law relating to Baclofen Prescription

Wow! Don't know where that came from...

Sam

[Lostinspace]

The Law relating to Baclofen Prescription

"And then, someone posts a joke about a Nun on a train! Then another post or maybe a whole string of posts about why someone felt it necessary to do something because someone else did something and so on and on and on and on.....and all my work disappears into an impenetrable fog."

I know this one comment is nearly three years old now, but the fact that you dredged it up makes me believe you still find it relevant. I understand your fervor. But, as a newcomer, I have to say, I find it a little offensive that you think your so important posts get lost inside all our other nonsense. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought this forum was primarily a support forum, not a forum focused on the dissemination of medical information. If there are doctors on this site, they're probably here because they're a fellow alkie like us. I've never heard of a doctor being swayed by personal stories (especially when people are self-prescribing), no matter how compelling those stories might be. They want hard, cold studies. You say you don't want people being scared out of asking their doctor for HDB. Well, I'm about to ask my doc for just that after reading everything here. The only thing that scares me is the unwelcome I feel here from certain people, including you.

EDIT: Please excuse me. I'm on the last day of my taper and feeling rather pissy atm. Feel free to tell me if I'm out of line.

[Pie]

The Law relating to Baclofen Prescription

Hi Lost,

Sorry if you've felt unwelcome by anyone. Posting is nearly always therapeutic, so not out of line at all. Pretty sure feeling pissy" is allowed as well, and you're entitled to your opinion.

Pie

[terryk]

The Law relating to Baclofen Prescription

Lostinspace;1678007 wrote:

EDIT: Please excuse me. I'm on the last day of my taper and feeling rather pissy atm. Feel free to tell me if I'm out of line.

No, you're fine.

-tk

[Lostinspace]

The Law relating to Baclofen Prescription

Thanks Pie and tk. I'm a little unsure of myself these days.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

The Law relating to Baclofen Prescription

Lostinspace;1678007 wrote:

EDIT: Please excuse me. I'm on the last day of my taper and feeling rather pissy atm. Feel free to tell me if I'm out of line.

No worries.

Listen, it's been quiet and quite pleasant around here for a little bit. It will be again. In the meantime, do your best to avoid the kerfuffle. Definitely don't take it personally.

Congrats on the taper. Kudos for posting what you feel. Just keep doing what you're doing, Lis.

[Otter]

The Law relating to Baclofen Prescription

Ne/Neva Eva;1677882 wrote: This is actually funny. There is an entire thread in which I have posted repeatedly that I thought that rather than discouraging people from approaching their doctors (because the thread is that doctors won't do anything), we should arm them with information and help them to get the help they need and deserve.

We have the same goals, Otter. But one of us is an asshole. I don't care which one, just so long as people can make up their own minds about it. Which means I'm not going to let you get away with posting the misinformation on your new website here on MWO. Come what may.

You are absolutely amazing.

You post on another thread how people shouldn't "harass" their doctors by insisting they prescribe high dose baclofen because the doctor is following "laws" and "guidelines" and then you have the nerve to post on this thread the exact opposite.

Then you top it off with a broadside foul mouthed insult calling me an "asshhole". One of the main reasons I don't post here that much is you.

You have sent me PMs over the years heaping abuse on me, calling me names and telling me not to post because I scare people and make them worried. So, I stopped because I took your word that you were genuine. Over the years, however, I have heard so many other people say the same thing about you and had many emails confirming my view of you.

You say whatever you think people want to hear and what makes you look good. You don't have any legal training and you don't understand medical ethics or malpractice issues.

I happen to have a doctorate in law and have studied medical jurisprudence and conducted court cases against doctors. I was also a bar admission course lecturer and a successful drugs lawyer and executive member of my national Bar Association so don't tell me I am putting misleading information on my web site or here because I am not.

You are a major problem for a lot of people on this website and a major reason a lot of people left, like Lo0p for instance. You constantly misrepresent Ameisen's views and replace them with your own.

It's no wonder Ameisen fell out with you and then decided to never post here again, although, no doubt, you would say he was in the wrong and you were right, as you always do. What a coup, eh? The man who came up with the "cure" comes here to join in and is driven away in disgust. It speaks volumes...if you can hear! Obviously you can't.

I could go on but, frankly, this whole thing engaging with you is a waste of time. We as stakeholders in this treatment should do something and coming here and being abused by you isn't my idea of getting on with things.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

The Law relating to Baclofen Prescription

I have posted repeatedly that I know that people are much more likely to find help getting a prescription for HDB from specialists in addiction medication. You take statements related to that fact and misrepresent them and suggest that I am inhibiting people's ability to get help. To what end?

Otter;1678101 wrote: You are absolutely amazing.
Thank you.

Otter;1678101 wrote: You post on another thread how people shouldn't "harass" their doctors by insisting they prescribe high dose baclofen because the doctor is following "laws" and "guidelines" and then you have the nerve to post on this thread the exact opposite.
You misrepresent what I wrote. It's right there in black and white. I've quoted it here for clarity. Let me be even more clear. I believe that physicians can and should participate in treating people with high dose baclofen. I know that general practitioners are very unlikely to take on that treatment, and that the best resource is a physician specializing in addiction treatment. Harassing or threatening a doctor is very unlikely to work. Mainly because it is explicitly clear that the doctor puts herself at great legal and professional risk by prescribing off-label at many times the federally mandated dose.

Ne/Neva Eva;1677370 wrote: Physicians are obligated to treat people within the guidelines and laws set up to compel them to do exactly

that. They are morally, ethically and legally bound by those rules, otherwise known as current guidelines. The easiest way to find those guidelines is on the internet.

I can't imagine harassing, much less threatening, a physician into treating me with an off label medication at extremely high doses and then expect the physician to treat me with my best intentions. It is not just a matter of personalities that is the issue. They are legally bound (and morally and ethically) to avoid doing just what we are asking them to do.

Add to it that our best baclofen-for-alcoholism advocates do not adhere to or condone the use of HDB. Couple that with the financial disincentive to further research and it becomes exceedingly clear why this movement hasn't gone further. Oh, and the fact that we're a bunch of anonymous internet alcoholics doing this on our own and getting us together is a lot like herding cats, and well...

Not that I'm a proponent of people trying. The new site is the best I've seen so far.

[Spirit, you vastly overestimate my influence. I'm just a formerly drunk chick with too much time on my hands and the ability to type fast. People will check out the new site. And I don't think I have ever publicly denounced any effort to further the goal of getting information out into the world, regardless of my personal opinions. just sayin' Again and again and again.]

Otter;1678101 wrote: Then you top it off with a broadside foul mouthed insult calling me an "asshhole". One of the main reasons I don't post here that much is you.

I didn't directly call you an asshole. I said one of us was an asshole. I thought one of the reasons you didn't post here is because there are several people who insist that you be truthful and accurate. You haven't ever been able to do that.

Otter;1678101 wrote: You have sent me PMs over the years heaping abuse on me, calling me names and telling me not to post because I scare people and make them worried.

It is a lie that I have sent you PMs that called you names or heaped abuse on you. You do scare people. You scare me.

Otter;1678101 wrote: So, I stopped because I took your word that you were genuine. Over the years, however, I have heard so many other people say the same thing about you and had many emails confirming my view of you.
hmmm. I'm here, week in and week out, telling my story and supporting others. I'd call that genuine. And as to the people who send you emails about me...whatever. Gossip. I'm very clear about the people who find me distasteful and the reasons are similar. They post malarkey and then expect us to ignore it.

Otter;1678101 wrote: You say whatever you think people want to hear and what makes you look good.
Ha! If that was the case, do you think we'd be having this discussion? Oh, the irony.

Otter;1678101 wrote: You don't have any legal training and you don't understand medical ethics or malpractice issues.
Wrong again.

Otter;1678101 wrote: I happen to have a doctorate in law and have studied medical jurisprudence and conducted court cases against doctors. I was also a bar admission course lecturer and a successful drugs lawyer and executive member of my national Bar Association so don't tell me I am putting misleading information on my web site or here because I am not.
Fat lot of good the degree has done you. It certainly doesn't make you right about this issue in the United States or in the UK. Please see these posts:

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ml#post1677878

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ml#post1677895

Otter;1678101 wrote: ... a major reason a lot of people left, like Lo0p for instance.

Lies again. And I have the emails, voicemails and text messages to prove it. There were three major reasons that I could not in good faith participate in the website he created (that I helped with). Number 3 was your participation as a moderator. I won't speak any more about Lo0p or the website except to say that you are lying.

Otter;1678101 wrote: .You constantly misrepresent Ameisen's views and replace them with your own.

Unlike you, I never represent Ameisen's views. I quote from the book. Or from the other things he's written.

Otter;1678101 wrote: It's no wonder Ameisen fell out with you and then decided to never post here again, although, no doubt, you would say he was in the wrong and you were right, as you always do.

First of all that is a terrible thing to say. You know it's not true. You know what happened on that thread. It was heartbreaking.

Ameisen and I did not have any issues before he died. We exchanged several emails after he was completely blasted by trolls on MWO. I was appalled and heart-broken about those threads. He knows it. DO YOU LIE JUST FOR FUN? Or is it because you have absolutely nothing to stand on, and nowhere to run. You're just making up horrible things about me in order to justify attacking me for posting completely reasonable, fact based information.

You just couldn't leave well enough alone, could you? You have your website, I was officially supportive, and yet here you are attacking me. I'd ignore it, would love to ignore it, but I can't. The internet is too volatile, my personal information is too available, and I won't be mistreated here or anywhere else.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

The Law relating to Baclofen Prescription

Oh, another thing I've never done: Attacked you personally. Which you do to me and others repeatedly. I can only imagine that it's because there isn't really anything else to attack...But I'm sure you don't see it that way.

So have the last word and then let's call this a day and go back to our respective corners. We don't have to agree to anything! Just a mutual distance and silence like before. How about that?

[StuckinLA]

The Law relating to Baclofen Prescription

When I titrated up I asked my doc, who didn't know me from Adam really, to prescribe HDB. She would not. I ordered a whole bunch of bac online and eventually started taking it. A while later I told my doc that's what I was doing. She would not agree to prescribe when I asked her, though she said she might've considered going up to 80mg/day if I weren't already above that. Regardless, I kept her informed, how much I was taking, and how it was affecting me. She kept the record in my chart and, while she would not condone self-medicating, she was glad that I was honest and she was happy to keep a complete record for me in the event there were complications or other (related or unrelated) treatments necessary.

EDIT: She also acted as a liason between me and psychotherapy referrals and put me in touch with several addiction specialists. Maybe she was just a really nice lady, maybe she was trying to punt me off to be someone else's responsibility. Whatever.

Not saying any of this to jump into a fight, but only to offer my experience - not even as a model, more as something to consider. Doctors have a lot of pressure on them from a lot of directions. They are not evil, not 'misinformed' usually, and they generally do want to help people any way they can, even if sometimes, like in my case, that's serving mostly as a witness.

[tee111]

The Law relating to Baclofen Prescription

I agree with the above. If your gp won't play ball you can always order it online and still inform them about it. You'll still get the same care you would if they were providing you with the script.

[Otter]

The Law relating to Baclofen Prescription

Ne/Neva Eva;1678133 wrote: I have posted repeatedly that I know that people are much more likely to find help getting a prescription for HDB from specialists in addiction medication. You take statements related to that fact and misrepresent them and suggest that I am inhibiting people's ability to get help. To what end?



Thank you.





You misrepresent what I wrote. It's right there in black and white. I've quoted it here for clarity. Let me be even more clear. I believe that physicians can and should participate in treating people with high dose baclofen. I know that general practitioners are very unlikely to take on that treatment, and that the best resource is a physician specializing in addiction treatment. Harassing or threatening a doctor is very unlikely to work. Mainly because it is explicitly clear that the doctor puts herself at great legal and professional risk by prescribing off-label at many times the federally mandated dose.







I didn't directly call you an asshole. I said one of us was an asshole. I thought one of the reasons you didn't post here is because there are several people who insist that you be truthful and accurate. You haven't ever been able to do that.



It is a lie that I have sent you PMs that called you names or heaped abuse on you. You do scare people. You scare me.



hmmm. I'm here, week in and week out, telling my story and supporting others. I'd call that genuine. And as to the people who send you emails about me...whatever. Gossip. I'm very clear about the people who find me distasteful and the reasons are similar. They post malarkey and then expect us to ignore it.



Ha! If that was the case, do you think we'd be having this discussion? Oh, the irony.



Wrong again.



Fat lot of good the degree has done you. It certainly doesn't make you right about this issue in the United States or in the UK. Please see these posts:

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ml#post1677878

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ml#post1677895



Lies again. And I have the emails, voicemails and text messages to prove it. There were three major reasons that I could not in good faith participate in the website he created (that I helped with). Number 3 was your participation as a moderator. I won't speak any more about Lo0p or the website except to say that you are lying.



Unlike you, I never represent Ameisen's views. I quote from the book. Or from the other things he's written.



First of all that is a terrible thing to say. You know it's not true. You know what happened on that thread. It was heartbreaking.

Ameisen and I did not have any issues before he died. We exchanged several emails after he was completely blasted by trolls on MWO. I was appalled and heart-broken about those threads. He knows it. DO YOU LIE JUST FOR FUN? Or is it because you have absolutely nothing to stand on, and nowhere to run. You're just making up horrible things about me in order to justify attacking me for posting completely reasonable, fact based information.

You just couldn't leave well enough alone, could you? You have your website, I was officially supportive, and yet here you are attacking me. I'd ignore it, would love to ignore it, but I can't. The internet is too volatile, my personal information is too available, and I won't be mistreated here or anywhere else.



So, you call someone an "asshole" indirectly... but I am the one attacking people personally? That's rich.

You fell out with Ameisen and said all sorts of things about him. You attacked me for suggesting that he got involved in baclofen after a friend referred him to work being done on cocaine addiction by Dr. Childress which is in his book. I am constantly finding you haven't read or understood his book which is no doubt the reason he got upset with you, because you routinely ignore his views and substitute your own.

In the US, courts are where people go to get fair treatment by government and professionals. That is just the way it is but you constantly put me down as some sort of fanatic who wants people to threaten law suits. I've not said that, ever. I just know that a court is the only place you can actually get compensation for being wrongly treated.

So, what do you have to say about someone paying $30,000 a month for residential alcoholism treatment who isn't even told about baclofen and relapses within 6 months? Any thoughts on that one, because that is what I have seen happen. Do they ask for their money back or just accept it? Everything is ok, is it? Because there are "laws and guidelines", presumably, according to you, which protect doctors who are lazy and don't want to deal with alcoholism, like our first GP who we had to get rid of to find a GP who actually cared and understood the treatment and liaised with specialists.