Another note from Dr Ameisen

[ignominious]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Florieanne, I'm not sure what you're trying to convey in your post. You highlight many points from my post and some you disagree with, others you misinterpret or put words into my mouth and yet others you generally agree with.

I understand that you have had more personal contact with OA than myself or many here. But I feel in some way that we can separate the personalities from the process. It would be nice if OA did a lot of things, maybe those things would be wide ranging if we took everyone's wishes into account. On that note it would be especially nice if Dr L would pm me and offer me some free guidance out of my psychological hell. I don't think either is particularly likely or indeed necessary.

Sorry to here about your trouble concentrating at work and will be interested to follow how you resolve this.

[Florieanne]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Ignominious,

Trying to get to some qualified answers, just like yours.
Sorry for misinterpreting, though it's the essence of communication..
I d'ont have any personal contacts with O.A. He answered my mails via the admins of both French forums. But I did have quite a few private exchanges with these admins who know him well.
To be true, I sometimes wish they had not poured all their knowledge of O.A on me. At other times, I think it's better to know where I am heading with bac side effects.

I have an uncle I really love who was on high dose of oral baclofen for many years after a car accident (before switching to morphin pump a few years ago.)
I had never questionned how he had managed to stop being a straight alcoholic. Of course now I know. I also know that he developped an impaired logic and was not able to benefit from his situation ( house"husband" from a very young age/22 because he lost the use of an arm and had many spasticity pbs) to learn knew things & develop himself although I have never seen him depressed. Much to the contrary.
Suffered from drowsiness quite a lot too, for many many years.

Can we separate the personnalities from the process ? to be honest, I don't have a single clue about that. Baclofen is a drug which has huge effects on our brain, that's for sure.
Ameisen has set himself as role model. And as far as I know he too has suffered horrendous SE, but telling about them wouldn't have made baclofen a buzz.

It would be nice if OA did a lot of things, maybe those things would be wide ranging if we took everyone's wishes into account. On that note it would be especially nice if Dr L would pm me and offer me some free guidance out of my psychological hell. I don't think either is particularly likely or indeed necessary.Don't think you can compare the two things.
I do tend to think that O.A is reading every line here, as Ne said, because I got mails entitled "your posts on MWO" from the admins of both French forums right away after my posting here the last time and 1) they don't have time to come here 2) two of them can't understand English.
So why is he reading every line of this section of MWO without ever posting? (first posts about the fact that we French managed to convince 9 GPs out of 10 is just not true. And even less so at the time it was posted).
What about the fact that in almost every radio interview here in France, he 's just coming out of conferences he's given in Harvard and else where in the US, where he has received lots of applauses because you are more open to change than we French people are?
Wtf !!!
What about his American patent for baclofen? Is he making money out of it? he always mentions he's going back and forth between the US to France, living in both countries...

I think it would be just fair he spoke about SE and how he is doing today. Obviously not very well. Why? Of course I am concerned with that.

Do you know that the word "alcohol" comes from the arabic "Al-Khool" = mask?
To really get rid of alcoholim implies to stop wearing masks. And there AAs & shrinkers make their points. It is delusional to state that you'll get rid long term of alchololism only by taking baclofen. Quite sure Ameisen knows it. Unless he believes his real cure is to become famous.
I do agree that thanks to bac and abstinence or close-to it, psycho work will be more efficient or at least eventually possible, not only because you're AF or almost, but because "resistances" are dropped.
Sorry to here about your trouble concentrating at work and will be interested to follow how you resolve this

Every day I think I will stop taking bac the next day...and I don't. Much like I used to behave with alcohol.
I'll have to stop taking bac if the SE don't wear off.
F.

[Murphyx]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Why aren't Dr Levin's patients attacking him? It was reported, by one of his patients, that he claimed a 99% success rate. Either the person who reported that was lying or, if you believe what is being reported in this thread, Dr Levin must have been lying. It's also been stated here, as TRUTH, that most people suffer extreme and debilitating side effects from baclofen and 50% have to stop taking baclofen as a result, yet Dr Levin claims the side effects should be minimal.

Clearly Dr Levin is a liar. Presumably he's telling these lies so he can make money out of half-witted alcoholics. Or maybe he just wants to be famous. Or perhaps he and OA have hatched a plan to enslave all the world's alcoholics by giving them brain damage and forcing them to join their cult, once this is achieved they'll eat them raw, after skinning them alive and buggering their still twitching bodies.

They are evil and must be stopped.

We really should have one of those eye-rolling emoticons.

[Murphyx]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Come to think about it, OA says he's a human right? He says he is, but how do we know? Has anyone here ever tested his DNA? NO????? Right that proves it, he's definitely an alien.

Any moment now I expect some bitter and twisted person to turn up and claim all the evidence she's seen points to his being an alien. Another person, who has a personal grudge against OA, will tell us she's been told by 7,500 French people that they've seen him remove his human outer skin to reveal his true reptilian form.

I bet that when he claims to be travelling to America, he's actually visiting his mother ship.

Pretty soon dozens of sheep, oops I meant to say forum members, will believe without doubt that OA is actually an alien who's mission it is to take over the world.

OA IS AN ALIEN - FACT!!!!!!!

[Winks]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Florieanne;1097378 wrote:
What about his American patent for baclofen? Is he making money out of it?

Whoa up. I don't understand. What patent? I have read repeatedly on the forum is that no one owns a patent on baclofen. Presumably that is the molecule baclofen? So brands of baclofen are patented? And Ameisen owns the patent for one of the US brands of baclofen. Interesting. Any guesses as to which brand?

[Road to Recovery]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

redhead77;1097196 wrote: Ne, thank you for sharing this. A day late and a dollar short I would say. This is very important information to hold back. I didn't know you doubted the efficacy of high dose bac treatment?

Why put your body through such hell, if we are going to end up a drunken, insane, freaks, anyway? Let's hope he is a megalomaniac, for all our sakes.

A 9 minute VM rant?

Ok,
Here is my two cents on the hole long term bac use - it is my opinion only. I will not say that bac works for everyone - I did not have bad SEs but I switched at a unbelievable dose (80mg). Bac is definately worth trying - I took it with no faith that it would work - I knew nothing about it and when I heard it was a muscle relaxer I thought - Wow - what a waste of time.
Well It works! For those that are sick and tired of Alcohol controlling and destroying their lives? Try baclofen. If you can get through the SEs and hit the switch - You will experience a feeling that is magical and sobriety has a high all it's own. But dont continue to dance with the devil - dont look at bac like it is a fuckin cure because in my opinion it is not. It gives you a second chance at life - dont blow it because you want to "Have a normal relationship with Alcohol"! alcohol does not want a normal relationship with you - it wants to destroy you.
Take bac - hit the switch - stay there until you feel like you can live the rest of your life without AL and then slowly start coming bac off bac. Get off of it if you are worried about the long term affects - It is possible - there are a few of us that have switched on bac and then titerated bac off bac. But you have to realize that AL is no longer an option. Dammit people - Look at what AL has done to you pre bac - why the heel do you want to keep it in your life? You wont win - What is so positive about keeping it in your lives?

Please people - enough arguing about Dr OA - who cares? Do what you need to do to get yourself sober.

[Guest]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

The trouble is that some people do behave as if it is some kind of cult, whether they mean to or not. Handing out copies of a book written more like an autobiographical novel, hailing the 'good Dr' as a hero....

Dr Ameisen is simply someone who realised Baclofen could be useful in treating addiction, and who gave the method a go himself. I've just had a helpful friend read his book, someone who is already open to Baclofen aiding myself. He says the book is mostly a nice story, with a short section at the end on how it all works. I don't hold him as a hero or leader, he was simply like ourselves looking for a way out. It might not help everyone in the same way though and 3 or 4 months ago I was being told it does fix everyone, no question about it. I'd prefer it left as another option, which is what it is becoming.

For the record Dr Ameisen, Levin and Chick are making money from consultations. Of course they want to help people but they are benefiting financially in all of this.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Murphy, why are you being intentionally antagonistic?

We agree on most things. We agree that some people don't have SEs. We agree that the point is to find indifference regardless. We agree that bac works. We fundamentally agree that BAC WORKS.

I feel as though you feel that by discussing this, sussing it out and sussing out the SEs and the downsides we are encouraging people not to try it, or that it's dangerous. Just the opposite. I had harrowing SEs. Nothing happened to me. Nothing. Except that I stuck to the goal and found indifference.

Dr. L is not the subject of this thread. But yes, I believe that at some point he should be subject to the same scrutiny.

Neither is OA's human-ness, though frankly his humanity might not be above reproach.

Love you murph. Take a deep breath or whatever Welsh vegetarians do to relax a little, will you?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

The patent makes perfect sense. He does not have a patent. He applied for one. Which means that if anyone TRIES to patent it, he will have to be financially reimbursed and acknowledged as the patent holder. Period.
The patent is not for bac, it's for treating addictions with bac

No great conspiracy, it's in the public records.

The rest are cross-posts. sorry.

Hope it's a good day.

[Cinders]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Winks,

[quote]Umm, Cindi, people with MS or spinal cord injury who are using the pump are NOT on high-dose baclofen. Their dose is the usual max of 80 mg. per day.

At any rate, it would be nice if you would refrain from falsely accusing other people of posting drunk. I heard you were a nice person who sometimes posts while drunk, and that's when you seem like a harpy. Is that's what is happening to you now?
The trick is to do a search on high dose Baclofen, multiple sclerosis, omit the words alcohol, alcoholism, addiction. I know it's tough, but I think you can do it with your very clearly analytical mind. I managed to bumble through, despite my handicap.

Although baclofen?s exact mechanism of action is unknown, as a GABA agonist, it is believed to play a part in the regulation of GABA.8 In its current treatment for spasticity, it is approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in titrated amounts up to 80 mg/day, given on a three times daily schedule.8 In patients with multiple sclerosis, baclofen has been found to be safe in doses up to 270 mg/day.9 The common side effects of baclofen (>10%) are muscle weakness and central nervous system (CNS) depression to include drowsiness, vertigo, dizziness, and insomnia.10
http://commons.pacificu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1195&context=pa&sei-redir=1#search="pacific+university+baclofen"

Red/Ne
Ne, thank you for sharing this. A day late and a dollar short I would say.

This is very important information to hold back.

I didn't know you doubted the efficacy of high dose bac treatment?

Why put your body through such hell, if we are going to end up a drunken, insane, freaks, anyway? Let's hope he is a megalomaniac, for all our sakes.

A 9 minute VM rant?

Definitely a day late and a dollar short, Red, and very confused despite your protestations of privacy, Ne, why you would seriously even consider holding back that information from a population who is following his protocol? Especially if he asked you to convey it?

Believe me, people, I would never hold that kind of information away from all of you.

Regards,
The Non-Critical, non-analytical, Harpy

[missyabby1]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Ne

No concensus from me whatsoever! If my "medical professional" was wearing no clothes and ranting and raving (like a kid in a playground....mine is better then yours etc) I could not and would not have faith in any advice she/he gave me. If my doctor prescribed something to me that had only been tested on herself, without independent trials and due diligence given to this medication she described as a "cure" I would be highly suspicious............but because my ailment was totally ruining my life I would be highly vulnerable to accept her advice (and hey she has even written a book about it..so that makes me even more suggestible to her advice).

So I start taking the damn pills.......don't tell my neighbour (who suffers from the same affliction surpringly enough ) about the rants and raves (9 minutes worth..left on my voice mail by the "medical professional" ) because I am so desperate for this medication to work.... I really don't want to hear that it might not work. I also cheer other people on to take the damn pills. I also pass on to others that other medications to "cure" this affliction don't work !

Ne, I have never ever slammed baclofen on this forum and never ever slammed baclofen takers..........in fact, the opposite. When I have questioned its efficacy and safety I have been "tarred and feathered", made fun of, ignored, called a half wit, told to fuck off ,told to go to the pub to look for a fight, told my method of trying to abstain (Campral) doesn,t work, etc etc.
Even my sister, who is on the Board of Ethics of a major hospital was somehow put into a political "box" because she questioned the ethics of promoting an untrialled medication. I just could not stand the "absolutes" stated by you and others when, in fact, absolutes with this medication are pure conjecture and should be discussed, not stated as fact.

God, you know what, I just don't care anymore either. I hope the bloody pills do work, and I have said that time and time again. I don't care who you are Winks.....bloody Tracy or bloody Methusalah........ I agree with your posts .Too many newcomers have been hoodwinked and mislead here and too many new comers (me included) have been abused and discounted. Alcoholics who come here are usually desperate and despairing and deserve better.

Missy

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Cinders;1097410 wrote:

Definitely a day late and a dollar short, Red, and very confused despite your protestations of privacy, Ne, why you would seriously even consider holding back that information from a population who is following his protocol? Especially if he asked you to convey it?

Believe me, people, I would never hold that kind of information away from all of you

I haven't withheld anything except that OA and I had personal communication, which I have actually shared in several places. I shared the fact that his (private) emails and voicemails were bizarre with several people because they alarmed me. There was never any thing to report concerning bac. Which was one of the bizarre and disturbing things about the exchanges.

I would not now, or ever, write something I didn't agree with or couldn't back up with facts. It is not my place to say who should take what, or why, in order to combat this disease. I told him as much and was met with stony silence or vitriol. Topa, campral and nal are prescribed by physicians with as much knowledge (or more than) Dr. OA. I will not jeopardize someone else's recovery in any way, if I can help it. AND I will not be anybody's pansy or pawn in a game I can't begin to understand.

AND every bit of this was recorded in my thread as it happened. I chose not to weigh in on this or the other threads because I had nothing to offer. Until people started to question bleep's and florieanne's veracity. I simply offer my experience with the doctor. It happens to corroborate their experiences. It still doesn't seem to me to matter, but I am happy to answer any and all questions. I suppose.

Bac works. Why are we still talking about OA?

[Winks]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Ne/Neva Eva;1097405 wrote:
The patent is not for bac, it's for treating addictions with bac.

Thanks for clarifying. Since it would not be necessary to have a patent in order to treat addiction with baclofen, as doctors and treatment centers are already doing, it doesn't make much sense to me.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

missyabby1;1097411 wrote:
If my "medical professional" was wearing no clothes and ranting and raving (like a kid in a playground....mine is better then yours etc) I could not and would not have faith in any advice she/he gave me. If my doctor prescribed something to me that had only been tested on herself, without independent trials and due diligence given to this medication she described as a "cure" I would be highly suspicious............but because my ailment was totally ruining my life I would be highly vulnerable to accept her advice (and hey she has even written a book about it..so that makes me even more suggestible to her advice).

He is not my medical professional, nor my doctor, nor is he prescribing. Nor was he ranting and raving like a kid in a playground. Nor has he EVER given me advice, other than to tell me to write in my thread, presumably in my words, what bleep wrote in the first post on this.

I have gleaned nothing from him about bac, about it's efficacy or not, about anything.

I have given due diligence to just about everything I've done regarding taking bac and finding the goal of indifference for myself, and passing that information on to others, including you. That includes investigating OA, which I openly admitted to him as well as to Dr. L. And the same holds true for Dr. L.
I recommend that to anyone looking into bac. The fact remains that I decided to take it, continued to take it and found indifference. Because BAC WORKS. And it's the only one of the meds used for this purpose that does what it does. Just as Nal is the only one that causes that kind of extinction.

Due diligence. That was and is my goal. Personal correspondence will always remain just that.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Winks;1097413 wrote: Thanks for clarifying. Since it would not be necessary to have a patent in order to treat addiction with baclofen, as doctors and treatment centers are already doing, it doesn't make much sense to me.

It's rather convoluted but here is my understanding:

If one applies for a patent, that person is on record as being the first.

If someone comes along (say Glaxo) and proves that bac does indeed treat addiction, and they apply for a patent for it, then they have to pay the original applicant.

That's obviously the very simple version and what I remember off the top of of my head. There is a thread, of course, from when someone discovered the patent, and I spent some time sussing out why he would do that and what it meant for the future of bac, lest it should affect ME. It doesn't. So I let it go.

Baclofen, no matter the name or brand or strength is and always will be generic and by definition not patent-able. (sorry if that's not a word)