Another note from Dr Ameisen

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

redhead77;1097196 wrote: Ne, thank you for sharing this. A day late and a dollar short I would say. This is very important information to hold back. I didn't know you doubted the efficacy of high dose bac treatment?

Why put your body through such hell, if we are going to end up a drunken, insane, freaks, anyway? Let's hope he is a megalomaniac, for all our sakes.

A 9 minute VM rant?

I keep all personal correspondence private. The whole thing was baffling. I shared it with some others. I felt no pressing need to share it here. What does it matter, really?

I express my doubts repeatedly. I doubt. I hate being a guinea pig. I hate being an active alcoholic more. I am in a place re. AL that I only dreamed about, and still I doubt. What ifs abound and they should, because no-one knows. I haven't read the stuff that Cindi (I think?) posted about patients on high-dose-bac. Maybe someone does know. Whatever. Does it matter? I'd give up a sense to be free, I think.

I think there are some really good thoughts on this thread. Thoughts that everyone considering bac should take into consideration. For instance: The SEs are it. They're the deal-breaker. Why does one get them and how does one avoid them? That's the question. If one can't avoid them, how does one get through them?

There are many more questions, many of them without answers, to ask before one takes bac. As bleep pointed out many moons ago, "I wouldn't give it to my worst enemy, but I'd give it to my best friend."

OA's ... whatever, doesn't really matter. Not to me. Though I don't mind telling you it messed me up mentally. Two other things worth noting for this discussion:

There is a study recently published (01/2011?) on NAL (not TSM) in a journal worth noting that shows that it works. Can't remember much more than that.

The study about topa was published in 2009, long after this site and RJ's book was written. The long term risks are no joke.

The person who initially posted those studies here on MWO was a physician who was trying bac. (He'd also tried Nal, with no success at all.) He got up to 90mg/day and quit because of the SEs. I went looking for them today. Not surprisingly, he's erased all of his posts, except one. lol. Hope he's doing well sipping pinot at the golf course. (that was for him. sorry.)

jkttdp. It's worth it. I LOVE this life. I hated the old one. I'm going to make DAMN SURE I'm not going bac there.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Alex, don't thank me. I don't want it and don't deserve it. This, too, is anecdotal. I won't share the emails, so you'll never know.

alexan;1097202 wrote: Whether Baclofen works or not is besides the point

NO! That IS the point Alex. Baclofen WORKS. Period.
And the rest of your post is not quite right, either. The TSM stuff? LONG before 2008. sigh. And all the rest, too.

[alexan]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Ne/Neva Eva;1097207 wrote: Alex, don't thank me. I don't want it and don't deserve it. This, too, is anecdotal. I won't share the emails, so you'll never know.

NO! That IS the point Alex. Baclofen WORKS. Period.
And the rest of your post is not quite right, either. The TSM stuff? LONG before 2008. sigh. And all the rest, too.
Cool. I was just commenting on Cinders mentioning that she was pretty sure that when he tried Naltrexone he did not use the Sinclair Method.
Also not sure why you're hitting me with a bat -- I'm merely stating the facts in that Nal has been shown to reduce cravings over time and not curb cravings to begin with. This is sometimes misunderstood. So if that's what OA was doing then it couldn't have been working as well as what TSM says.

Cinders;1096888 wrote: Hi,

I did want to say in OA's defense, he tried Naltrexone. It didn't work.

I am quite sure he did not use the Sinclair method.

I am disappointed he has not researched Naltrexone to that point, though.

Cindi

[LittleLessBoozin']

Another note from Dr Ameisen

I have received several very bizarre emails from Dr. Ameisen. Some of them are rants. Some of them are borderline incoherent. In several of them he instructed me to include what he wrote to bleep in my own thread. Almost word for word.

I have 3 voicemail messages from him. One of them is 9 minutes long. He is angry and very belligerent about another doctor. Calls the other doctor horrible names, says that he is, "evil" among many, many other vitriolic things.

Our email correspondence began in the fall of last year. It continued until recently, when he ended it without warning.

He also repeatedly assured me that he would post here. "soon" Throughout.

I don't know how much I want to share or whether I want to enter the fray. I'm over it.

But his correspondence made me wonder if he was drunk, had completely lost his mind because of the baclofen, or was *simply* a megalomaniac. I have shared those sentiments EXACTLY off of this forum. His words are one of the main reasons that I doubt the efficacy of high-dose-bac treatment. It's been a difficult thing.

NE, I sincerely appreciate your sharing this. I recognise an semi-coherent rant when I see one, and I'm glad that you have validated my suspicions.

I'm NOT glad, however, that after less than a decade on high dose Bac, it appears that Dr. A might be mentally fragile, whether due to relapse, direct Bac effects on the brain or indirect Bac effects on the brain (problems sleeping, for example). Whilst I'm hoping that I'm not one of the posters being branded a 'Pharma industry troll', I do ironically work as a consultant to the pharma industry, hence my caution where 'miracle drugs' are concerned- I know how this stuff almost always plays out.

With that said, my lifestyle as things stand is just (scuse my French) totally fucking unsustainable, and totally unfair on my family. I just ordered 20x 10 25mg pills from the Indian pharmacy someone mentioned. If and when they arrive, all that remains if for me to find the balls*/pick the appropriate time to start the regime.

If it turns out that high dose bac is, as I suspect, a temporary measure with it's own problems (My name is Paul, and I'm a Baclofenic ;-) then I'll take that problem as it comes. At least by then I will (insh'Allah) have had x years of sobriety/moderate boozing, and so hopefully have retrained my brain into some new patterns.

Wish me luck!

Paul.

*Speaking of finding the balls, isn't it fascinating that despite the misery of alcoholism, the prospect of doing ANYTHING about it is oddly terrifying?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Sorry Alex.

Paul. :H thanks. My name is Ne and I'm a baclofenic too. good luck, but you won't need it if you just keep taking the damn pills.

And yes, ordering stuff from overseas... I'm a woman who won't take a multivitamin without a full accounting of what's in it. I have a stash of bac from Vanuatu, which I had to google to place in the universe. And was sorry I did. :H

welcome to the ride.

[Greg]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

I would simply suggest that it's unrealistic to think that ANY treatment for something like alcoholism, or addiction to any other drug, could ever be 100 percent effective or 100 percent without side effects. Alcoholism is also much more than just a brain chemical disorder, it also involves psychological and life factors, just like depression and various other psychological disorders. This is not just a theory or something read in textbooks or online, it is something seen in real life experiences with numerous alcoholics.

Baclofen is one of the tools available to allow people to overcome alcoholism, just as antidepressants are tools that can help many people with clinical depression. Just like other drugs it is going to have a variety of SEs in many people but like other drugs the SEs can be worth putting up with in order to get the benefits. As others have pointed out, regular heavy doses of alcohol produce many SEs and also many forms of semi-permanent and permanent damage to the brain and body. Put another way, most alcoholics end up pretty well stuffed unless a successful treatment of their alcoholism is found.

I'd suggest that baclofen be regarded as a treatment for alcoholism rather than "the cure" but also that it still seems very effective compared to all other treatments that currently exist.

[PbarE]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Florieanne;1097168 wrote: Yes,
Baclofen works
for 50?/. of the patients according to the French clinical trial made by O Ameisen & De Beaurepaire.
Ameisen says 80?/. because he includes the half successes, those who have cut their drinking by half.
Those are the results published.
They are extremely good but don't show that baclofen is "the" cure.
Besides, that group of patients were still taking the ttt given by their addiction therapists. De Beaurepaire wrote he didn't change anything.
Which means some? most? took nalextrone & acomprosate at the same time (at the minimum) , as it is the regular/standardized ttt in France.

50?/....looks like the results you get on the forum.

So it works, but not for everyone, far from it.
And the least Ameisen should do would be to acknowedge it.
By the way Cinders, Ameisen has lived and worked many years in the US and his English is far far better than mine.
He thinks that those who are put off by the SE just lack in will power... Do you agree with that Cinders?


Of course, we're all looking forward to reading the results of the Netherlands study .
F

This is pretty much what my doctor (a board certified addictionologist) said...bac works for more than half of the straight alcoholics, and two-thirds of the stimulant addicts.

And by "works" he meant it reduces cravings....dramatically for some.

Considering the success rates of other treatments, those are still pretty good odds. Damn sure worth rolling the dice.

Ne and Florie, you are both courageous for telling the Emperor that he had no clothes on.

[Greg]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Also I will admit to being a bit surprised by Dr Ameisen's state of mind, going by what has been said here, but as far as I know none of us really knows for sure what his current situation is (correct me if I'm wrong on that...I did read the allegations of him being drunk and barred from the French forum). Until this is known for sure, we can't say he is drinking again, or that he is suffering mental side effects of baclofen treatment. Even if one of these is true, it would not mean that baclofen is a failure in alcoholism, and it would not mean that others are destined to end up in a similar situation. Everyone reacts too individually to drug treatments to be able to make blanket predictions based on one person's experiences, even if that one person is OA. Like everyone else interested in baclofen treatment he is a human being not a God-like figure (and this is coming from someone who admires him and his discovery a lot). If he has been megalomaniac in his statements then it is a human fault, no more and no less.

[ignominious]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

A lot of rubbish on this thread with some pertinent points mixed in.

My take on it is that this is not a cult. To equate baclofen with the way OA is, does disservice to both. OA's cause of dysphoria may be expressing itself via another avenue, who am I to say or care. It doesn't express itself via alcoholic type, day by day drinking. Give the man his due. He discovered a chemical that stops alcoholism and for that courageous act of genius I sincerely thank him and give him my respect.

The long tern effects of high dose baclofen have yet to be investigated. I know some MS patients have been on +200mg dosage for years but I don't suppose many long term SEs have had a lot of attention. For instance I don't expect that loss of motor coordination due to baclofen was ever considered.

There is not enough evidence about long term, high dose baclofen use to draw a conclusion either way imo. Taking a single person, searching for inconsistencies in his story and intimating that this is the result baclofen users can expect is pathetic and extremely narrow minded in my opinion. As someone said, "baclofen works". There is no more that I could ask for. I took it so I could stop drinking. I stopped drinking.

Now, as I've always known and expected, I have to address my psychological issues. This is at last a possibility without the debilitating effect alcohol has on my brain.

The long term effects are relatively unknown, on many occasions in the past I've posted about my misgivings. Partly this why I stay in touch with MWO. I'm pleased if I can smooth someone's ride to the switch but selfishly I want to know how other long term users are doing. Despite my past habits of being a chronic recreational drug user, I have never believed drugs, per se, to be 'good'. I'm reluctant to take paracetomol or start antibiotics. I am also trying to reduce my baclofen dose to the minimum maintenance dose possible, at the moment it seems to be about 90mg. Hopefully after some more rewiring of my brain I will be able to reduce further.

Baclofen works if you work it, The SEs experienced in the titration process are temporary, they will go away and you will be free of alcohol. Long term, this seems like the most reasonable and sensible route for me to take.

[gratitude]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

thanks ig,
a voice of reason in a sea of hyperbole. grat.

[LittleLessBoozin']

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Ne/Neva Eva;1097223 wrote: Sorry Alex.

Paul. :H thanks. My name is Ne and I'm a baclofenic too. good luck, but you won't need it if you just keep taking the damn pills.

And yes, ordering stuff from overseas... I'm a woman who won't take a multivitamin without a full accounting of what's in it. I have a stash of bac from Vanuatu, which I had to google to place in the universe. And was sorry I did. :H

welcome to the ride.

Ne (for that is now your name as far as I'm concerned ;-)- assuming the Bac arrives in a timely manner, I shall start the treatment at the beginning of May. I have a very important board meeting at the end of April, and whilst being constantly pissed right now I believe it is better the devil you know- I've closed many high value deals drunk or seriously hungover, but I have no idea what my state of mind will be with Bac, so I think I should postpone my therapy until I won't be seen by my colleagues in senior management for a while...

That said, I suspect that now I have finally admitted my problem in 'public' I will likely become a more frequent poster on this board- I hope that you and others will forgive my less than perfect grammar, as I can only muster the courage to post here when I'm drinking- currently Switching between Sam Adams wheat and a cheeky little Viognier from Fresh and Easy.

Per my previous posts about drunken, semi-coherent rants, it amuses me to re-read what I have just written as it appears to be a classic of the genre:H

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

consensus? Consensus!?

It seems as though there is a general consensus that it matters not what the emperor is wearing. The discovery was profound and worthy of recognition and respect.

Conjecture is a moot point for each of us as individuals. The goal and the process remain the same.

And that it *mostly* works.

LLB, that's how many of us started.

Ne

[alexan]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Ne/Neva Eva;1097223 wrote: Sorry Alex.

Paul. :H thanks. My name is Ne and I'm a baclofenic too. good luck, but you won't need it if you just keep taking the damn pills.

And yes, ordering stuff from overseas... I'm a woman who won't take a multivitamin without a full accounting of what's in it. I have a stash of bac from Vanuatu, which I had to google to place in the universe. And was sorry I did. :H

welcome to the ride.

Sorry Alex, what?

[Florieanne]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Hello

Consensus? Not sure.
Bac works for me, hit the switch 2 months ago. Using that time to set up other evening habits, as I won't be able to continue taking my switch dose for very long for professionnal reasons. Can't concentrate, read and study some 10 hours a day as I used to and as it is necessary for me to do.
Using that time to set up other things when I'm not lacking in will-power.
Asked myself many questions about the effect of bac on will-power. I have very much less of it since I started bac.

A lot of rubbish on this thread with some pertinent points mixed in.Don't think that expressing oneself about O.A 's statements can be thought of as rubbish

To equate baclofen with the way OA is, does disservice to both. The problem is he equates his well-being with baclofen.

OA's cause of dysphoria may be expressing itself via another avenue, You're missing a great point here.
What he states over and over again is that (his) dysphoria was the reason for his drinking and that the reason why bac works is that it cures dysphoria.
And that seems quite true. Most of us are having a hell of a time with side effects and yet we don't suffer from dysphoria anymore.

The long tern effects of high dose baclofen have yet to be investigated. I know some MS patients have been on +200mg dosage for years but I don't suppose many long term SEs have had a lot of attention. For instance I don't expect that loss of motor coordination due to baclofen was ever considered.

Quite a good point.
I don't think lack of concentration and cognitive impairment were very much considered either.

Taking a single person, searching for inconsistencies in his story and intimating that this is the result baclofen users can expect is pathetic and extremely narrow minded in my opinion.

It probably wouldn't be so if he reckoned that his alcoholism is not purely biological and that he reckons he still has some AA work to do. He seems to me to be a perfect example of the alcoholic personnality as it is described in the AA literature.
And in the psycho-analytic literature on alcoholism.

As someone said, "baclofen works". There is no more that I could ask for. I took it so I could stop drinking. I stopped drinking.

Same for me, though I find myself in a double bind situation since I can't work (job asking for great alertness & concentration.)

Now, as I've always known and expected, I have to address my psychological issues. This is at last a possibility without the debilitating effect alcohol has on my brain.

Would be nice to hear Dr O.A says such things.
Nice day to you all.
F.

[bleep]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Ne/Neva Eva;1097205 wrote: ...
As bleep pointed out many moons ago, "I wouldn't give it to my worst enemy, but I'd give it to my best friend."

...

Hey, I'm sure I said I'd give it to both!