Another note from Dr Ameisen

[Florieanne]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

http://www.baclofene-alcool.fr/index...download&id=59

A recent study about how to treat alcoholims best.
Which says one of the reasons not to use bac more extensively so far is for fear of adverse cognitive SE:
"future research is required to determine whether the benefits of baclofen outweigh the liabilities (eg, possible adverse cognitive effects and enhanced intoxication with alcohol)"


By the way, I've read on SCI forums that one should not drink more than one unit on bac.

Hope the link to this article works, if not :
ref: A written exchange between Marc Schuckit & Olivier Ameisen.
Treatment of alcohol-use disorders.
Ameisen O.
Lancet. 2009 May 2;373(9674):1519; author reply 1519-20. No abstract available.
PMID: 19410703 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Adverse cognitive effects are a major concern for me.

[Cinders]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Ameisen has filed a patent application, but for "prevention of relapse on baclofen". He says this was solely to block rehab centres from doing so, and that he is dropping it because it is "costly and useless". Though he could have done so, he says, he never applied for a patent for his treatment.

Home - Baclofen UK

btw, The article posted here is very fair sided. Of course, they do not talk about the SEs, but they do look at whether drug therapy is even worth it. I was surprised to see an article with this much discussion on the pros and cons of using Baclofen therapy posted on the Baclofen for UK website.

I will no longer speak to OA's mental state and people posting here about it. It seems others here have much more intimate knowledge of OA than I do, which is none. I wish I did, because then I would have personal knowledge, not secondhand.

I remain stunned that anyone who has personal knowledge of bizarre behavior by OA has not posted about it until now. Especially knowing that so many on MWO and the French forums are following OA's protocol.

However, that said, despite what OA had Bleep post, I am adding Naltrexone to my therapy. I do this with the full knowledge after reading the studies that there has been no serious study of a large population of either drug. This is scary and why I always recommend that one do these things under doctor's supervision.

I did order my Naltrexone online, but do this only because I cannot get in to see my psychiatrist for over a month. However, she did prescribe Naltrexone for me several years ago. At that time, I tried it for three months but did not follow the TSM method and it did not "work."

I also agree with OA and Ig that ignoring your psycological health because you are cured can be (I state can, because I question whether all alcoholics suffer from an underlying cause for their alcoholism,) but many do. I know that I became almost an instant alcoholic when I started drinking again several months after my gastric bypass. My psychiatrist told me that "curing" one addiction without addressing my underlying cause for the addiction is the probable cause for my new addiction.

So, I have set up an appointment with a psychologist, actually a husband and wife team, who are versed in addiction treatment. I am hoping they are better than the two I have seen in the past. If not, I will continue to search.

One other thing, Florie, there are no serious scientific studies on long term Baclofen use for alcoholics, because as yet, there are no serious scientific studies on the use of Baclofen for alcholism.

In reality, the French Forums and MWO have a higher population of "trial" Baclofen users than any study done so far. The same for Naltrexone. Naltrexone studies were done for opiate users when it was approved by the FDA.

And, even more disturbing, it seems all the current ongoing studies for both drugs are not studying the either protocol mentioned here.

The Harpy

[missyabby1]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Murph

You are once again showing your bloody hostility towards women. Sorry mate some of us are intelligent and can voice our own opinions without needing your condescending vitriolic ranting. And you are now ranting mate. You wouln't last a minute in a pub in Australia without having your head knocked off. Not by women, but by our men here. And I don't regret saying that at all. You do not need defending by Ne and I would not defend you in a pink fit. You need challenging. Please don;t calm down......because everything that is now coming out of your mouth right now is the true Murph. Bitter and twisted mysoginist. And jftr I didn't get you kicked out of here before.

And Ne, yes I know the pathology with Murph, but I don't care!

Missy

[PbarE]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Ne/Neva Eva;1097416 wrote: Baclofen, no matter the name or brand or strength is and always will be generic and by definition not patent-able. (sorry if that's not a word)

If it is not a word, it should be. And you are absolutely right - it will always be generic.

If anyone wants to see the actual application, click here: BAC PATENT APPLICATION

I edited this 10 minutes after posting - I had the wrong link. FTR, I have no problem with a person trying to protect their intellectual property.

[Murphyx]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

missyabby1;1097429 wrote: Murph

You are once again showing your bloody hostility towards women. Sorry mate some of us are intelligent and can voice our own opinions without needing your condescending vitriolic ranting. And you are now ranting mate. You wouln't last a minute in a pub in Australia without having your head knocked off. Not by women, but by our men here. And I don't regret saying that at all. You do not need defending by Ne and I would not defend you in a pink fit. You need challenging. Please don;t calm down......because everything that is now coming out of your mouth right now is the true Murph. Bitter and twisted mysoginist. And jftr I didn't get you kicked out of here before.

And Ne, yes I know the pathology with Murph, but I don't care!

Missy

I may be wrong, but I get the feeling you don't like me.:H

[ignominious]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Hi Flo, looks likes days ago that you wrote your previous post.

I'm just as keen to get answers to your questions as you, I have previously found myself calling for OA to come out and tell all. I think that was unreasonable of me and am thankful enough that he has shown me a way to break the cycle of drinking that I was in.

At its best, MWO acts like a think tank and therefore would be of interest for anyone looking into baclofen. OA intuitively found the method for alcoholism but the knowledge and science behind it is not his speciality.

I personally didn't expect baclofen to cure my dysphoria. It has taken the alcoholic component away and as you said it is more likely that psycho-work can succeed.

As Road mentioned some people have been able to titrate to zero without getting drawn back in by alcohol. At the very least many people have reduced from their switch dose which is where I presume you are still at.

[Chi]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

I always heard about addicts who turn into self righteous assholes after they remove said substance from their lives, or join the recovery crusade, but never saw it more close up than what I'm seeing now, on this thread and in a few other places in this med section.

Fact: OA discovered that baclofen could be used to suppress craving in alcoholics. He used himself as a guinea pig and then wrote a book about it with a strong desire to help other alcoholics.

Fact: Because of the above mentioned efforts, baclofen has helped many, many alcoholics.

For those who can't find it in themselves to have enough respect for the guy to refrain from malicious gossip, I ask that you take a good hard look at yourself. What you are doing is wrong. It's mean, petty, and not benefiting a single person on this site. I ask that you examine your motives and your own damn personal issues.

Fact: Nobody HAS to take baclofen. It is a choice you can freely make... or not.

OA doesn't OWE anybody a fucking thing. Recovery is YOUR issue. He gave alcoholics a tool. If you can't be grateful, then STFU.

[terryk]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

please disregard

[Winks]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Ukblonde;1097402 wrote:
For the record Dr Ameisen, Levin and Chick are making money from consultations. Of course they want to help people but they are benefiting financially in all of this.

I don't see the same kind of craziness coming from Chick. He has not, to my knowledge, displayed the tunnel vision for baclofen, partaken in the zealous promotion of it, or claimed extraordinary cure rates. I wonder if Chick would even use the word "cure." Dr. L has actually claimed 100% success. To me from a distance, it looks like Chick considers baclofen as just one of a number of tools and not the holy grail of recovery.

But Dr. L has been known to accept whatever a person can pay. His regular rate is $150+ per session. I doubt anyone here pays anything near that for his services.

[missyabby1]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Oh please Chi,

The people who discovered Topa, Campral, Naltrexone....I hope, do not rant about other people;s discoveries being useless and shit! Go back and read the man;s post! I don't care if he wrote a thousand books and chose to be a guinea pig.

I have always just questioned the absolute statements here about Baclofen being a "cure" and there were plenty of those posts going around here when I first came across this forum. No Kidding Che....go back and have a look!

Of course we revere people who discover "cures" for diseases, ailments etc. Fortunately those people become quite renown in their fields.....because of continuing independent trials and continuous "tweaking" of their discoveries, which , in turn, benefit their patients.

Look, maybe Madame Curie was ridiculed at first for her discovies in medicine. But I guess rigorous trials and proof shut her adverseries up! Who knows? Maybe her discoveries were received well from the start or maybe egos got in the way. I don't really care.

All I have ever been concerned about on this site was the fervant, unproven statements that Baclofen WORKS (seemingly for everybody....at least when I first came on this site.......and the absolute hysteria if people questioned that fact).

I have nothing against OA whatsoever.....whether he is drunk, debilitated or anything in between. My beef is with people on this forum taking advantage of new (and old) members by WOO HOOing people beginning this obviously (for many) scarey route. Calling it a "journey" is particularly disturbing. Come on.....this is a powerful drug.

It is not bloody holiday destination.

We, as alcoholics, need facts and true care no matter what treatment (or whatever)
we choose. Not bloody hysteria and WOO HOOing.....we are vulnerable people looking for a way out of our misery and need to be given the opportunity to decide for ourselves. We are also very vulnerable to other's ideas.

It is not a competition as to which way is "best".

[missyabby1]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Ne/Neva Eva;1097414 wrote: He is not my medical professional, nor my doctor, nor is he prescribing. Nor was he ranting and raving like a kid in a playground. Nor has he EVER given me advice, other than to tell me to write in my thread, presumably in my words, what bleep wrote in the first post on this.

I have gleaned nothing from him about bac, about it's efficacy or not, about anything.

I have given due diligence to just about everything I've done regarding taking bac and finding the goal of indifference for myself, and passing that information on to others, including you. That includes investigating OA, which I openly admitted to him as well as to Dr. L. And the same holds true for Dr. L.
I recommend that to anyone looking into bac. The fact remains that I decided to take it, continued to take it and found indifference. Because BAC WORKS. And it's the only one of the meds used for this purpose that does what it does. Just as Nal is the only one that causes that kind of extinction.

Due diligence. That was and is my goal. Personal correspondence will always remain just that.

Ne, you gleaned everything about bac and its efficacy by reading his book. I did not mean personally from his emails or private communications. I presume that after reading his book you started taking the medication.....so in that respect he was your medical professional by proxy.

[Lo0p]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

missyabby1;1097464 wrote: Ne, you gleaned everything about bac and its efficacy by reading his book. I did not mean personally from his emails or private communications. I presume that after reading his book you started taking the medication.....so in that respect he was your medical professional by proxy.

BULL.SHIT!!! :no:

Do some reading before you speak. What a freaking waste of time. I don't envy Karen at all and the minutes she is going to have to waste putting you in your place because she has done all the research and analysis that you haven't.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

I read his book and got online.

I spent several months here, following threads and reading research. Much of it compiled by lo0p, some by otter, and other folks who aren't here anymore.

I took notes. I followed people's posts for months. And read more research. And followed more people around, asking for help and advice. My journey to indifference and sobriety had nothing to do with OA, other than the fact that he was the pioneer who started the treatment. And it worked.

Lots of conjecture on here about Dr. L too. None of it from his patients.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Lo0p. Lo0p. I owe you this day, this clarity, this optimism just as surely as I owe it to OA. I've said it before, I'll say it again. Without the research you posted on the Consolidated Baclofen Thread I never would've been able to see that it was my way out.
I owe you.

And Cinders, and Zenstyle and all the others that I studied that aren't here anymore.

And sooo many others, too many.

Thank you all for this day.

No offense, but I gotta say:


WOOOOHOOOOOO!

May you all find your way out.
xo
Ne

[Isolde]

Another note from Dr Ameisen

Chi;1097435 wrote: I always heard about addicts who turn into self righteous assholes after they remove said substance from their lives, or join the recovery crusade, but never saw it more close up than what I'm seeing now, on this thread and in a few other places in this med section.

Fact: OA discovered that baclofen could be used to suppress craving in alcoholics. He used himself as a guinea pig and then wrote a book about it with a strong desire to help other alcoholics.

Fact: Because of the above mentioned efforts, baclofen has helped many, many alcoholics.

For those who can't find it in themselves to have enough respect for the guy to refrain from malicious gossip, I ask that you take a good hard look at yourself. What you are doing is wrong. It's mean, petty, and not benefiting a single person on this site. I ask that you examine your motives and your own damn personal issues.

Fact: Nobody HAS to take baclofen. It is a choice you can freely make... or not.

OA doesn't OWE anybody a fucking thing. Recovery is YOUR issue. He gave alcoholics a tool. If you can't be grateful, then STFU.

A-fucking-men.