Will Baclofen replace Phenibut for me?

[RatStew]

Will Baclofen replace Phenibut for me?

terryk: do you have a hangover/groggy feeling in the morning? That's a big thing with phenibut, there's a groggy feeling that takes about 3-4 hours to get rid of in the morning.


Yes, I've already started to taper the phenibut down. I did it too fast at first, so I'm taking it at a slower level. I like the idea of integrating baclofen with phenibut. I'll try experimenting with that if I can't directly switch from one to the other.

[terryk]

Will Baclofen replace Phenibut for me?

RatStew;1109644 wrote: terryk: do you have a hangover/groggy feeling in the morning? That's a big thing with phenibut, there's a groggy feeling that takes about 3-4 hours to get rid of in the morning.

No I feel totally normal. But I've been on baclofen for more than a year and at 240-280mg/day for 7 months. I'm completely indifferent to alcohol, but don't really experience any other benefits from it. I still have worry and anxiety, but they no longer keep me up at night. I get about 6-7 hours of sleep each night and feel pretty good all around. I'll probably give it about 12-18 months total and taper down very slowly after that. For what it's worth, it took a long time for me to reach my high dose because I was very sensitive to side effects. Yet, whenever I miss a single bac dose I can't really feel any repercussions. I have had my bac dose cut in the past from 235/day to 80/day for a few days and the results were unpleasant to say the least (so I know a little bit about going up, going down, and going without). Good luck. -tk

[Toro]

Will Baclofen replace Phenibut for me?

RatStew;1109587 wrote: Why do you vary it? It seems like everyone else on this forum, once they reach a "switch" dosage they maintain it at that...

Once I went high dose and hit the switch, just didn't need to hit it again at those levels. So now I just vary the dose according to how I'm feeling, in situations with lots of booze I just take a higher dose, whereas most days I don't need it and it's just a low maintenance dose. I think it also depends alot on what was triggering your drinking in the first place, mine was definately more obsessional thinking which pervades everything else as well.

[RatStew]

Will Baclofen replace Phenibut for me?

ok thanks for the responses terry and toro! Glad baclo has helped u stay sober - that's one of the most important things for ppl like us!

[KTMAdv]

Will Baclofen replace Phenibut for me?

Ironically, as I sit down to type this reply relating to all of my addictions, the song ?Sam Stone? by John Prine came up on my Slacker radio station?coincidence?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl9ZkYViEIs[/video]]YouTube - Sam Stone - John Prine

SongMeanings | Lyrics | John Prine - Sam Stone


LOL?anyway, I?m gonna try to catch up with all the replies since I last posted as best I can:

bleep;1108940 wrote:
...
20mg's per week has been the figure quoted by a doctor who prescribes baclofen for alcohol addiction, and is thus familiar with it in the doses we discuss.
...
I was asking for a relative number reflecting the total daily dose, for example tapering off a dose of 100mg/day at a rate of 20mg less per day, per week, is drastically different than if your base dose was 200 or 300 mg/day. It?s a percentage-per-week taper that I was trying to put a ?line of best fit? on, in mathematical terms.

RatStew;1109192 wrote:
...
20mg/week seems like a really low dosage for baclofen. Most guys on this forum based on their signature are taking 150mg+ daily.
...

I think you mis-read that, RatStew...20mg/week was the quantity with which daily dosage was decreased, not the total weekly dosage(as yoy indicate you think was the case by the comment above). Confirmed:

bleep;1109322 wrote:
The 20mg's per week was the figure that the dosage could be reduced by on a weekly basis, not the actual dose being taken.

RatStew;1109192 wrote:
?
I'm in a similar predicament. Which is why phen withdrawal scares me so much. It will put me out for much of a week, and seep me into a bad depression and isolation. Not really where I need to be right now. I've already started tapering phen down and those effects are already hitting pretty damn hard. Makes me wish I had access to klonopin.
?

I know from previous experience exactly what you mean with respect to the depression anxiety, lack of productivity and focus, and isolation during and post-withdrawal. I like to think that that?s pretty much how I had become before Phenibut and after SJW stopped working, and that when I quit/withdraw I slip back to that ?normal,? as miserable as it was; but it is definitely not a smooth landing strip in any case and I hated it then as I will hate it afterwards.

As I mentioned before, Lyrica is my new ally for Phenibut withdrawal, although I have only used it to moderate it in the meantime when a shipment of Phenibut was late, and have not as of yet had to run a ?full course? during a complete cessation of Phenibut. I have a couple of bottle of Lyrica squirreled away as a result of the pharmacy setting my ?as needed? refill on a scheduled refill by accident. The script itself has run out but I still have all the pills and they are well within expiration.


RatStew;1109192 wrote:
?
brands make all the difference in the world. The only brand that did anything for me was Perika by Natures Way. I have heard Kira brand is OK too, but it wasn't as good as Perika for me. iherb.com has it for great prices.
?

Over time I learned that many brands of SJW are indeed gimmicks and empty of hypericin they claim is in there, as well. I never ponied up for the really expensive brands like Perika but instead found that for me, the Solaray stardized stuff seemed to work if it was going to at all.

/>

RatStew;1109192 wrote:
...
I am not so sure about the transition at all. Where are you on it? Have you begun the transition yet? Where are you going to start your baclofen dosage and administration schedule? This is my main concern...

For example, I take 7-8g/day Phenibut in two dosages: morning and afternoon ~ 3PM. How would I convert that to baclofen? Would you start at 40/40/40/40? I mean, I really have no idea.
...

I just got my baclofen yesterday, and I only bought 100 pills at 10mg each as an experimental quantity, so I certainly don?t have enough to taper off of Phenibut, and pick up backlofen fulltime without running out of baclofen and immediately having to taper off of that. I don?t want the tickets to that rollercoaster yet, so I?m going to experiment with taking baclofen as a ?substitute? for Phenibut for intermittent doses?I know this *technically* counts as taking both at the same time, but since the half life of baclofen and Phenibut is shorter and short, respectively, I can?t see that it will be that bad or risky.

Furthermore, having enough experience with GABA drugs in general, and coupled with the fact that I?m still dealing with relatively low doses of either one, I?m certainly not worried about the warnings of either seizures or comas setting in as mentioned previously in this thread by someone. And if they do I have the Lyrica, and also some Valium on hand, so I can keep it under some semblance of control while I seek real professional help if it comes to that. I highly doubt that will happen, though.

As far as a dosing regimen, my Phenibut use is consistent but I don?t have numbers for it. With my present tolerance level, I lick my fingertip, dunk it in the powder, and what sticks to it is my dose. As a crude statistical experiment, I did this three times and scraped it off my finger each time onto a pretty precise scale, and it came out to be 80-112mg. That was enough of a sample set for me, and I usually do that(the ?lick-and-dunk?) three times at each dosing 2-4 times a day as maintenance, and once or twice more later in the day if I know I will be out with friends or among other drinkers. It works amazingly well for controlling my drinking and cravings(amongst yielding incredibly astute thought and focus at work, or at home on projects, or out recreating on one of my contraptions); where I would normally have 4-6 drinks down I?ve had one or two and feel fine the next day as long as I resume the maintenance Phenibut dosing by noon or so.

That said, I will probably start with the baclofen at about 10mg dosage instead of the three-dunk(~300mg) of Phenibut, see how it works once or twice, and if 10mg isn?t enough raise it 5 mg per ?substitute dose? and see how it works. If I find a suitable substitute dose, I will progress to two in a row, see how it goes, and of course keep a good supply of Phenibut as a fallback if something backfires or doesn?t go as planned, and keep incorporating substitute doses as I go. I wasn;t going to make some sort of strict regimen, as I haven?t done that with the Phenibut. I was, after reading countless baclofen up-taper reports, definitely going to ?titrate in? the baclofen very gently and see how and if the SE?s show up. Something along the lines of THIS POST As for your plan, that seems like a LOT of baclofen right off the bat and jumping in so big has not seemed to work for anyone else, Phenibut addict or not. JMO, though. To quote Ne/Neva Eva:

Ne/Neva Eva;1109592 wrote: ...
I've been around here for a minute or two and I can say unequivocally that I've seen more harm than good come from people jumping in at high doses. In some cases, it resulted in rather alarming stuff
...

RatStew;1109192 wrote:
...
I also found on another forum that SJW - an SSRI & GABA reuptake inhibitor - may attenuate the withdrawals associated with GABAgenics. So I will add that to the ol regimen.
A couple of more interesting personal notes on SJW: I absolutely cannot use SJW in conjunction with Phenibut usage, intermittent or continuous. It has to have something to do with the dopamine balance that Phenibut is upsetting(in a positive way, raising dopamine levels?), because while I am motivated my focus is terrible. This indicates to me that the two are working against each other in one part of my brain and then synergesically somewhere else, but that is strictly an uneducated conjecture based on what research I have done with respect to the synergesic effects of other similar(reuptake inhibitor and agonists)drugs used together ? purely heresay at most. If I wait a couple of days and stop the SJW, and then use Phenibut, all of the positives of Phenibut shine through fantastically ? motivation, focus, etc. Interestingly these feelings are present after about a ~week of SJW daily supplementation too, although not nearly as intense apparent and of course fading later on as we discussed. And of course also, once I get above about 1800mg of ~3% hypericin SJW, there is no apparent gain from there up. Believe me, when it first stopped working, I tried.

Toro;1109411 wrote:
...
The beneficial sides including lowering anxiety and the fact that it isn't addictive and can't be abused by those of us with addictive obsessional personalities is also great.
I am hoping and praying that this is the case for me.





Ne/Neva Eva;1109601 wrote:
...
Anyway. Clearly you'll have some information about the correlation between phen and bac that I don't know about, but it doesn't change my word of caution. I'm not being alarmist, I don't think.
...

I have done a _ton_ of research which I have only begun to relate here, in fact, a lot of it I have not seen correlated anywhere else even in Dr A?s book, particularly with respect to GHB both endogenously and as a supplement, AND as a srug of abuse. Anyway, from the Wikipedia article on Phenibut, Pharmacology section( Phenibut - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ), and I?m sure you can find other sources:

?The pharmacological effects of phenibut are similar to baclofen, but less potent per milligram of dosage.?




Ne/Neva Eva;1109601 wrote:
...
Sounds like bac could be a really good fit for you both. I hope so.
Good luck.
Ne

I hope so, although I cherish the nootrpoic qualities of Phenibut so much that if they are not present with baclofen, I will have to find a way otherwise to be so sharp and focused, etc. because I am so good, so focused, so productive, so precise and so?well??on? with Phenibut that I honestly never want to go back. I can, and have, and get by, but I guess that being who I am I like anything that gives me a bigger buzz from learning and honestly, in that way, that is what I am most ?addicted? to about Phenibut?a close second to the complete suppression of anxiety so that I can hear myself think, though, too.

[RatStew]

Will Baclofen replace Phenibut for me?

Yes SJW and Phenibut counteract each other to some degree. Selegiline also counteracts phenibut.

But it sounds as if you have a medicine cabinet at your disposal, so with that option klonopin does a great job at mitigating the withdrawal effects.

I hope so, although I cherish the nootrpoic qualities of Phenibut so much that if they are not present with baclofen, I will have to find a way otherwise to be so sharp and focused, etc. because I am so good, so focused, so productive, so precise and so…well…”on” with Phenibut that I honestly never want to go back.

hahaha, classic thought pattern of us addicts. too bad baseline is such a drag.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Will Baclofen replace Phenibut for me?

WOW KT. I'm impressed. (maybe. lol. And I impress pretty easily, ftr! just sayin)
Everything except the dipping the finger in and licking it off thing. (scraping it onto a scale that registers that? What, exactly, is your background??? hmmmm. It's going to be fun to think about! I tend toward the dramatic, so drug smuggling is much more likely than pharmacy tech, which is just too boring for words. No offense. :H)

RatStew;1110477 wrote: too bad baseline is such a drag.

I couldn't agree more. But I soundly disagree! (I'm still at the place where a clean home is a rather large improvement...)

I have had some similar experiences on bac as what you describe about Phen. The mental acuity, etc... I wonder if it wears off, too? That would be a drag.

Best to you guys. I think you're nuts, but then we all are, and if I'd come across Phen first I'd have been in a world of hurt. Though I'd also have been too scared to try it... Fascinating stuff out there. (the disease drives us to pretty extreme lengths in lots of ways, doesn't it?)
:l
Ne

[Greg]

Will Baclofen replace Phenibut for me?

I had considered phenibut due to baclofen being almost impossible to get in proper doses from doctors, but will stick with lower dose bac just for the moment. I think I'd rather have to order heaps of baclofen online rather than go with phenibut, mainly because of phenibut's reputation as being addictive.

Good luck switching from phenibut to baclofen, it should hopefully be safe and without too much hassle if done gradually.

[Isolde]

Will Baclofen replace Phenibut for me?

KTMAdv;1110389 wrote:
I hope so, although I cherish the nootrpoic qualities of Phenibut so much that if they are not present with baclofen, I will have to find a way otherwise to be so sharp and focused, etc. because I am so good, so focused, so productive, so precise and so?well??on? with Phenibut that I honestly never want to go back. I can, and have, and get by, but I guess that being who I am I like anything that gives me a bigger buzz from learning and honestly, in that way, that is what I am most ?addicted? to about Phenibut?a close second to the complete suppression of anxiety so that I can hear myself think, though, too.

Baclofen can make you feel a bit fuzzy headed (due to the somnolence) for awhile at first. One thing that I do to counteract that, and which I recommend here time and again, is to take piracetam. It's a nootropic. You can buy it online. It greatly helps me with focus and concentration and getting my thoughts in order. Make sure you take it with a choline source (like lecithin) to get the most out of it. It might not be a nootropic of the same order as phenibut, but I find that it helps me a great deal. No side effects whatsoever, even when I take pretty sizeable doses. You can always check out the other racetams as well. I've never tried any of them, but have heard some good things about them, especially aniracetam.

Maybe with the anti-anxiety (and all around life-enhancing) benefits of baclofen, combined with the nootropic effects of piracetam, you'll be able to kick the phenibut for good. Good luck!

[Greg]

Will Baclofen replace Phenibut for me?

I meant to ask a question when this thread was first started sorry...

How is phenibut actually more hazardous than baclofen? I don't understand this anymore. Baclofen requires gradual titrating upwards from a low dose (eg. 15-30 mg per day) to a very high dose (eg. 200-300 mg or more per day) so a person can get used to its effects and side effects at the required doses. Very few could start at 200+ mg per day without experiencing severe problems such as tiredness and bad SEs yet many become able to tolerate most of these effects in time. This is what I have read here. People say that phenibut is dangerous due to creating tolerance, yet I don't see how it's much different in that way to the 10-fold increases able to be obtained over time with baclofen dosages. As for it being "moorish" is that simply due to people finding its effects desirable at lower doses then needing more as tolerance sets in, or is it an actual craving for phenibut that does not occur with baclofen at any dosage level?

It is also said that phenibut is hazardous due to withdrawal dangers, and I would definitely not try to dispute that, but once again is that significantly different to what would happen with baclofen if it were abruptly reduced or stopped once up at high doses? Baclofen is well known to have this potential danger and it would have to be assumed it would happen in most cases.

Aside from these two issues, both drugs are GABA-B agonists, and I have seen some suggestion that both have some (small?) degree of GABA-A activity. Both have shortish half lives, again being similar that way.

I ask this because I have tried to see how the two substances are different but can't seem to understand this anymore. I also ask because phenibut is quite easily available (so far) as a supplement in bulk form and so could be easier and cheaper to obtain than an equivalent amount of baclofen. I am still on baclofen and happy with things so far, so not making excuses to stop it or putting bac down in any way (having always been in support of it), just wondering if phenibut is actually pretty much the same after all??

My apologies if this information is already here and I have missed it.

[ignominious]

Will Baclofen replace Phenibut for me?

Hi Greg

Its a very good question and one that has been covered several times here if you could find them. I think I even started a thread at one time asking if baclofen was addictive.

From the simplistic information we are looking at the mode of action of phenibut and baclofen do look very similar. Tolerance, withdrawals are similar. I understand the answer in the most simplistic form. The main effect we are looking for from baclofen is the cessation of addictive cravings, once that level has been reached tolerance for that effect doesn't occur. Therefore there is no need to go higher and because the core of your addictive brain has been sorted there is no DESIRE to go higher.

It's just my take on it and I watch with interest how other people respond to longer term use of baclofen

[ignominious]

Will Baclofen replace Phenibut for me?

Hi Greg

Its a very good question and one that has been covered several times here if you could find them. I think I even started a thread at one time asking if baclofen was addictive.

From the simplistic information we are looking at the mode of action of phenibut and baclofen do look very similar. Tolerance, withdrawals are similar. I understand the answer in the most simplistic form. The main effect we are looking for from baclofen is the cessation of addictive cravings, once that level has been reached tolerance for that effect doesn't occur. Therefore there is no need to go higher and because the core of your addictive brain has been sorted there is no DESIRE to go higher.

It's just my take on it and I watch with interest how other people respond to longer term use of baclofen

[Greg]

Will Baclofen replace Phenibut for me?

Hi Ig,

Thanks, I haven't yet found that thread but will keep looking.

Some information about phenibut says it stimulates dopamine receptors and antagonises PEA ones, so that could be the reason for the difference to baclofen. Much of the information says it's mainly been used in Russia and isn't widely known in the West, whereas of course baclofen has been used in Western medicine for many years. I do recall a link on this forum to a very informative article about phenibut but I have not managed to find that (yet) either. Phenibut does seem to have a tolerance+withdrawal reputation that is worse than baclofen, but not sure if that's because it has been used recreationally more than baclofen.

Anyway I have no reason to stop baclofen or complain about it, and I was just curious more than anything else.

[terryk]

Will Baclofen replace Phenibut for me?

Greg;1112160 wrote: I meant to ask a question when this thread was first started sorry...

How is phenibut actually more hazardous than baclofen? I don't understand this anymore. Baclofen requires gradual titrating upwards from a low dose (eg. 15-30 mg per day) to a very high dose (eg. 200-300 mg or more per day) so a person can get used to its effects and side effects at the required doses. Very few could start at 200+ mg per day without experiencing severe problems such as tiredness and bad SEs yet many become able to tolerate most of these effects in time. This is what I have read here. People say that phenibut is dangerous due to creating tolerance, yet I don't see how it's much different in that way to the 10-fold increases able to be obtained over time with baclofen dosages. As for it being "moorish" is that simply due to people finding its effects desirable at lower doses then needing more as tolerance sets in, or is it an actual craving for phenibut that does not occur with baclofen at any dosage level?

It is also said that phenibut is hazardous due to withdrawal dangers, and I would definitely not try to dispute that, but once again is that significantly different to what would happen with baclofen if it were abruptly reduced or stopped once up at high doses? Baclofen is well known to have this potential danger and it would have to be assumed it would happen in most cases.

Aside from these two issues, both drugs are GABA-B agonists, and I have seen some suggestion that both have some (small?) degree of GABA-A activity. Both have shortish half lives, again being similar that way.

I ask this because I have tried to see how the two substances are different but can't seem to understand this anymore. I also ask because phenibut is quite easily available (so far) as a supplement in bulk form and so could be easier and cheaper to obtain than an equivalent amount of baclofen. I am still on baclofen and happy with things so far, so not making excuses to stop it or putting bac down in any way (having always been in support of it), just wondering if phenibut is actually pretty much the same after all??

My apologies if this information is already here and I have missed it.

GHB and GBL act on GABA-b receptors (and Gaba-a and ghb receptors) and are both probably cross tolerant with baclofen (and phenibut) in the same way the benzos are cross tolerant with alcohol (which has Gaba-a action and possibly some gaba-b action). The point being that each of these (4 gaba-b ergic) drugs, while having a similar site of action have vast differences in effects and abuse potential. GHB and GBL are known for potent highs, rapid tolerance and dangerous, brutal withdrawal. The interesting thing, is that Phenibut and Baclofen are very similar chemically. Both are GABA analogues with an added feature (a phenyl ring for phenibut, a chlorophenyl ring for baclofen-I think) that make them able to penetrate the blood-brain barrier, and hence, exert a more potent effect. It seems (and many of us here have reported) that baclofen is pretty un-abusable. Prn doses make work for some, but not for many of us, and they just give me more side effects. So my guess is that all of these have (an anti-exitatory) action the Gaba-b site, but only baclofen out of the 4 has no pleasurable feature that encourages recreational use, abuse, and addiction....I could go on and have a bit to say about the difference between addiction and physical dependence.... but I'll just cut to:

the link to the thread I think that you and Ig are talking about:
https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ive-45253.html

[RatStew]

Will Baclofen replace Phenibut for me?

Greg;1112651 wrote: Hi Ig,

Thanks, I haven't yet found that thread but will keep looking.

Some information about phenibut says it stimulates dopamine receptors and antagonises PEA ones, so that could be the reason for the difference to baclofen. Much of the information says it's mainly been used in Russia and isn't widely known in the West, whereas of course baclofen has been used in Western medicine for many years. I do recall a link on this forum to a very informative article about phenibut but I have not managed to find that (yet) either. Phenibut does seem to have a tolerance+withdrawal reputation that is worse than baclofen, but not sure if that's because it has been used recreationally more than baclofen.

Anyway I have no reason to stop baclofen or complain about it, and I was just curious more than anything else.

Phenibut is recreational for sure. But there are generally 2 types of people: responders and nonresponders. Responders love phenibut because its like a benzo - it's euphoric, makes you feel "in the moment", social, horny, and mentally sharp. Of course -as per the usual - once the high wears off you find that it's all a great big lie.

Have not tried baclofen, but my understanding is that the recreational potential isn't nearly as high as with phenibut.