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    #16
    Baclofen as a treatment for cannabis dependence?

    Hey folks thanks very much for the input. As you can probably tell from my last post I'm quite confused and also feeling alarmed about my current substance intake. I usually have control over everything apart from alcohol, so seeing myself take this other stuff is a bit alarming.

    Hi Ne, Murph, Lo0p, 8, I'm always interested in reading your opinions, and aware not to take advice as being equivalent to a doctor's (as usual you gave me a laugh Murph the way you stated that). Ne, I have thought about drinking again many times, it is a thought I battle each day. I often think of giving in to it, and the only things stopping me are the total lack of control over it that immediately occurs and my sense of achievement in having given it up (one thing I have been able to stick to over a fairly long period). When I drink again after being AF my whole mind changes, to the extent of not even wanting to try to get sober again for months/years after busting. Actually shame at my family seeing me back on the booze is another thing stopping me. I hope that baclofen plus bupropion may be enough to halt both the depression and the drugs, so will try to stay AF and hope for indifference to these other substances aswell with increasing baclofen doses. Luckily I have not yet had severe reactions to any of this stuff but am aware of the danger, and trying to limit use as much as I can. I do tend to agree that cannabis dependence is mainly psychological, and a specific drug treatment for it doesn't really exist; fortunately I have been able to have a few periods of abstinence from it without serious withdrawals but I am going to try 8's weaning-off suggestion if it proves too difficult to just quit again.

    Yes depression is an illness, one I've had since my teen years or early 20's, although mine was preceded by social anxiety/phobia and an intense loneliness that occurred because of my inability to be close to others, especially forming relationships. My particular depression seems largely a reaction to these underlying issues, and so my grabbing of every substance I can find is probably an attempt to escape these issues due to feeling that I cannot otherwise address them...but yes part of it is also wanting whatever high/hit/buzz I can get. Also part of it is due to becoming disillusioned and given-up with standard medical treatments for depression after many years of asking for help. Lo0p, I think like yourself my depression isn't a primary disorder, although it is indeed worsened overall by alcohol; my alcoholism is probably also secondary to the social issues.

    I have tried counselling numerous times but found that counsellors/psychologists hardly ever listened to me properly when I'd try to explain myself...they would go off on a tangent as soon as I mentioned the depression or alcohol and would not properly take the original issues into account (although I would often not explain it very well either). I am still open to counselling, but standardised CBT using printed-off homework forms just doesn't seem effective or specific enough, and alternative counsellors are difficult to access where I am. Maybe the biggest barrier when I first sought out counselling was that shyness and other serious social problems did not seem to be recognised as being very serious or worthy of direct therapy.

    All this could explain why antidepressants have not worked for me; there may not be much of an underlying depression-causing chemical imbalance for them to work on. Serotonin-affecting drugs have never had much of a positive effect, and those are the usual first-line depression treatments handed out by doctors where I live. I suspect this is also the same elsewhere. Norepinephrine enhancing antidepressants could work better for me but fewer are available. I am trying to get bupropion/Wellbutrin/Zyban precisely because it works differently to the drugs I have already been prescribed (enhances norepinephrine and dopamine action), although ridiculously it is not approved as an antidepressant here in Oz, just as a stop-tobacco-smoking aid.

    Anyway sorry for yet another long self-absorbed post. I have tried to explain everything better but it gets so long and complex. AA is one method I am returning to, despite not being much into the spirituality or the dogma. AA's self-searching and self-changing methods are something I think would help me a lot, and something I never gave a committed try when I attended earlier on. I still hope to find a therapist/counsellor but one who is willing and able to spend the time to listen, not just hand out standardised CBT homework forms or tell me theories from textbooks. CBT's ideas, like AA's, have merit but like AA I find that the one standard procedure does not fit all. Maybe I should just print off this post and give that to any therapist I see in future, as it would at least explain things properly!

    Other things could be interests and hobbies, a better job, other new goals, other forms of self-improvement, helping other people out, trying to establish a relationship or close friendship...and becoming less self-absorbed and negative. Hopefully these things will be a lot easier to get started on if the depression can be cracked a bit.

    Thanks for listening and advising me, and I hope to have better progress to report in the future. Best wishes to you all.

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      #17
      Baclofen as a treatment for cannabis dependence?

      Since writing the above post, I have had a huge rethink of everything, and have decided that I do not want to risk becoming dependent on daily chemical highs in order to get through life. Being an alcoholic then a pothead is of course about being high too, but at least that has been restricted to a few hours of my day before bed, not all day every day like my latest foolhardy plan would have involved.

      My biggest fear is becoming unable to enjoy or even tolerate everyday life without an artificial buzz, and becoming unable to get natural happiness from enjoyable interests and activities. I was kidding myself by saying the dangers could be minimised by rotating different drug classes to stop tolerance, because the mental process of needing the high would have continued and grown ever-stronger no matter how often I switched drugs. I was also kidding myself by saying I only wanted the drugs to treat my depression, because the craving for drugs kept going even during periods of normal mood. I was only chasing the high after initially stopping a depressive episode.

      I will keep increasing baclofen as a way of reducing the urge to get high, and incredibly it already seems to be helping with this at only 25 mg per day. I am hoping that baclofen and an antidepressant will soon become the only substances I take, and that real life activities and friendships will become the real substitute. Proper therapy for my problems is still needed of course, but this would not have happened at all if I had settled into being high as my answer to everything.

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        #18
        Baclofen as a treatment for cannabis dependence?

        Greg

        It's good you come to this realisation because if I remember rightly, you were thinking cannabis would be a way to fix your alcohol problem. Sounds as if it's only diverted you onto a less harmful, but still troublesome substance instead.

        Regards counselling. I've had good success with a private counsellor I found searching locally. She isn't a psychiatrist or anything as grand as that but does use Transactional Analysis and I've never had any homework from her. I will say this however - we hardly EVER talk about my drinking. At first I thought this was wrong, my problem was my alcoholism and I wanted to talk about sorting that out. Took me a while to understand the counsellor is there to look at the underlying issues, which aren't always that obvious. Sure you can say well xyz happened and makes me drink, but it took a long time looking at behaviours/experiences I didn't even think were important to actually get to the crux of the matter. All very subtle and yes at times I thought the counsellor was just going way off course. What it has enabled me to do is look at things better, recognise my needs and give myself a break at times! That then often reducses my desire to drink or get out of my head.

        Maybe you are over analysing things, and perhaps put yourself into the hands of the counsellors. They are the professionals paid to take care of you after all.

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          #19
          Baclofen as a treatment for cannabis dependence?

          Hey Greg, I totally concur with what Murph and Loop have said. You are so honest and succinct in how you explain your life's journey. You are so not self absorbed, you are just so honest and open. I think everyone here on this forum can relate to some of your dilemmas, if not all. My youngest son started using pot after his dad died, then, unfortunately started using speed. It has been one hell of a rollercoaster ride since then! Heartbreaking stuff. I so thank you for your honesty, which, in turn, helps us all to "spill our beans," and therefore produces a true healing environment. Good luck Greg in your quest for "sobriety" , whatever that means for all of us.

          Missy xx

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            #20
            Baclofen as a treatment for cannabis dependence?

            Uk, thanks for your advice. I guess I also knew there was a fair chance that cannabis would just become an alcohol substitute, which is what happened. Maybe I should have listened to others but I thought it was my best chance of getting off the alcohol at the time, as it seemed to help with depression. It no longer does much to help depression, it just calms my fear of not having something to take each night really (Edit..it does also still help with alcohol craving at night to some degree). The nightly obsession to use is the one I still haven't beaten but I also think it's possible with baclofen and an antidepressant if they work for me.

            I have looked around for counselors but have not found any as good as the one you mentioned. Those I have spoken to have been mainly into the scientific side and theories that aren't really the type of personal counselor-patient relationship you have described. I'll keep looking however since what you spoke about would help a lot I think.

            Thanks Missy, best wishes with your son. I have a friend who turned to pot and then speed, well ice actually but it's a type of amphetamine. My friend has had a battle but she was doing ok the last I heard, so your son can do it too. There have been one or two hospital-based clinics that have helped people get off pot and speed in this country, so you could see if there was anything like that in your area if you needed that sort of help. There are also rehabs that people can get into here without being rich so maybe that's an option...I have thought about that once or twice myself lately.

            Greg

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              #21
              Baclofen as a treatment for cannabis dependence?

              Thanks Greg, my son has done a few rehabs, unfortunately/fortunately they have been 12 step programmes. I just don't know, are they beneficial/partly beneficial or just plain damaging? I really wish I knew. I honestly think there has to be an inbetween somewhere along the way. But until that comes together, it is a travesty each way.

              I honestly think that mind altering drugs are always going to be a part of the human condition. I think that there are some of us that the enticement of that will always be our downfall. Damaged, scarred, genetically predispositioned or what? Environmentally challenged, ie lonely, isolated , misunderstood, abused as children, abused as adults, stressful personalities, fragmented psyches etc etc . On it goes Greg.
              I just know it is damn painful.............and as my counsellor said to me the other day, there is no way to go from zero to hero without the stuff in between. Much as we'd all like it that way. Believe it or not, I am an extremely joyful person, the half glass full not half glass empty sort of person. Gravitate towards kids, animals and joyful funny people. My home was always the one where kids used to come to when they were in trouble. The booze got me Greg. I was sober for 40 yrs, my mum died, my dad died, my husband died and one of my children died within a six month period. And i get on here and rage against innocent people.

              Sorry, this is sounding like an AA meeting.

              Anyway, did you hear about the one about the unshaven goat??:H

              Night

              Missy

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                #22
                Baclofen as a treatment for cannabis dependence?

                Missy I have seen what you describe many times. Life does seem to get the better of people sometimes and they often turn to alcohol and other drugs for attempted relief, as I obviously did.

                I think many rehabs aren't all that successful, and I have read of overall success rates similar to AA attendance. If a rehab employed counseling methods like the counselor that Ukblonde mentioned in her post here, then I'd be willing to go. With your son, maybe there would be a way of looking up other clinics or individual counselors/psychologists in your area to see if their methods are just an extension of AA or whether they use different techniques? Uk mentions Transactional Analysis as the method her counselor uses, and I am looking that up to see if anyone does it where I live.

                I don't know what methods you have tried for your own drinking issue but baclofen does seem to have a decent success rate, and others talk of success with The Sinclair Method of naltrexone use. Where I live the treatments available are SSRI antidepressants, impersonal-style CBT, and AA, along with Antabuse, Campral, and normal-use naltrexone if you happen to see a doctor willing to go beyond SSRIs, and some people would find success with these. I wish you the best of luck with everything.

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                  #23
                  Baclofen as a treatment for cannabis dependence?

                  Hi Greg,

                  Wellbutrin is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor. Dopamine deficiency has been postulated as one of the cornerstones of addiction. I'm not sure the norepinephrine part of wellbutrin has anything to do with addiction, as that part may be counterproductive. That makes Wellbutrin unique, in regard to the dopamine part, and why it may work well with smokers and alcoholics.

                  I don't know if you've been reading the other threads, but there is some thought that it may be slightly contraindicated with high dose baclofen. There might be an increased risk of seizure. If you haven't had a seizure before, well I don't know. We all have to decide our risk vs. benefit. I do know you wrote it isn't prescribed in your country, so I would assume you've given up the thought?

                  As far as the searching for a drug for a replacement for booze, "they" say that is all too common. Many people do it. I'm not sure if it's common for people that take bac to find indifference or the switch. I have heard it's not. It's hard to get addicted to anything. If you need the reefer for now, than do what you must. I'm not sure if I would switch to boozing. At least reefer is not physically addictive, booze is. Keep doing what your doing, but don't add new drugs to the mix. Unless, you feel you need an antidepressant. That's different. Most importantly, keep taking and going up on the bac, and see how you feel. Maybe all this will stop. This of course is my opinion and not medical advice.

                  Maybe we should all put that as our signature so we don't have to keep writing it.
                  This Princess Saved Herself

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                    #24
                    Baclofen as a treatment for cannabis dependence?

                    Hi Redhead,

                    Thanks for your help. I can't be sure, but my recent drug cravings feel like a desperate attempt by my brain to get extra dopamine effects. I have not desired any one particular drug, just a psychological 'booster' effect generally due to having an abnormal lack of energy and motivation (not just normal tiredness or being doped out on anything). I am extremely interested in Wellbutrin for this reason, not to get high off it but to safely increase dopamine and maybe reduce my desire for other ways of increasing it.

                    I did read about a seizure risk but am willing to accept that since it's supposed to only occur at higher than usual Wellbutrin doses, and luckily I haven't had any seizures. The drug is available here but only prescribed officially for smoking, so I will still try to get it but will be using it off label, basically the same as baclofen. I am seeing my addiction doctor again early next week to discuss both medications.

                    I won't go back to alcohol just now, since pot is preferable as a stop-gap while I'm trying to fix this mess up. Alcohol would only get me back into a much deeper hole. Ne mentioned alcohol but only due to being very concerned about my grabbing onto a variety of other drugs. I'm still on 25 mg baclofen per day which seems to be helping somewhat, and I am about to increase again.

                    Lol I thought of adding the not-a-doctor clause to my signature too, since I have talked about drugs a lot and was worried someone might think I was handing out actual medical advice!

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