Hi everyone from Bill.P.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

beatle;1117294 wrote: I wonder if I am one of those. The 5% bac-resistant subset.
It's looking more and more like I am.
Nope. Not so.

Ukblonde;1117349 wrote: in other words people where the side effects just didn't diminish and who didn't get the positive SEs such as increased confidence, happiness etc.

Allergy/Bad Reaction or something else?

Something else, in many cases. Such as erratic titration. Not following through. Contraindications. Much, much more. imo.

Thanks Bill for the response. There's been some interesting discussion, not nearly thorough yet, about xanax and I asked for personal reasons as well. I appreciate your thoughts on the matter. (Perhaps we can delve further into this thing, Lo0p and others who might be interested?)

Ne

[beatle]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

bleep;1117306 wrote: Hi Bill,

Some interesting stuff here, thanks. I have a couple of questions if you don't mind?

May I ask what research you are basing your conclusions on? Specifically the 5% baclofen resistant subset. As I understand it, those sort of results and conclusions could only come from a large scale study.

As I understand it, baclofen is the only agent that acts on GABA-b specifically, so how will supplementing it with Xanax help? Or are you suggesting this as an alternative after people reach indifference?

Very good questions, Bleep. The kind that would normally pop into my head, if it was not muddled with and mired in the idea that there are actually 5% bac resistant people -- and it would make sense that I was one.

This was, of course, similar to having a cannonball placed carefully on my chest (making the irrational part of my brain gain enormous ground over the usually scientific, or just logical, part of my brain, which is ever critical (fat too critical many have said), and looking for explanations and inconsistencies).

However, I should mention that when Bill P. threw the xanax idea out there, I took it to mean that the 5% bac-resistant group could be helped with concomitant xanax dosing, which in turn would explain Dr. L.'s stance on xanax, which has proved rather puzzling to many of us on here. So I also took Bill P.'s comments to offer hope. Perhaps under the guidance of Dr. L, there is something to this, and this is the way (maybe the only way) I can achieve indifference, and frankly, any way that gets me there is ok by me. (Although one does have to be wary, and introducing a highly addictive benzo into an alcoholic's brain sounds pretty nutty and goes against all intuition... and logic)

So, I will wait to hear more of this discussion, get some facts and sources so I can do my own research and reach my own conclusions (I never believe anyone else, anyway)

Thanks for bringing those questions up, bleep. Pulled me back to ground level. (Not ground zero).

And thanks, Ne, for your succinct "Nope. Not so." In typical Nethority fashion. I'll take your word on it. I will.

[Bill.P.]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

Greg;1116061 wrote: Hey Bill great to hear from you. I managed to stay away from the grog but ended up substituting other things for it, but now trying baclofen again as an alternative treatment for anxiety and depression (hoping it will help me end my use of other things). All the best, catch you around sometime.

Hey Greg, my old buddy from the land of OZ.
Cant remember what city but it was South of Sydney. Looking to be visiting the family back there probably end of this year beginning of next. Maybe hook up at the Buddhist temple in Wollongong.
Maybe thats what you need, have a spiritual awakening, although it seemed more of a tourist trap, it was pretty relaxing =)

I just recommended this to someone else via PM. Maybe you need to have your testosterone checked, that can be caused by mumps as a child or overconsumption of alcohol and you can become hypogonadal. That would be the easiest fix for depression with just testosterone supplementation.
Its easy to get checked for, in particular if you are having sexual dysfunction or lack of sex drive accompanying your anxiety/depression.
Also, you may have a mixed mood disorder such as schizoaffective disorder which can be tremendously response if given the correct medication. Just using that as an example, obviously proper diagnosis would require seeking a psychiatrist. I would encourage you to have that checked Greg. You seem to have a continuing issue with this anxiety/depression that you had 3 years ago when I was last here.
So dont sell yourself short by not pursuing that route aggressively with a shrink. It maybe a brain chemistry issue as well.
The old saying is 1 out of 3 people have mental illness, if you ask 2 friends close to you and they say they doing ok, then youre it! lol
And I think people with psychiatric illness are at much higher risk to self-medicate. And its nothing to feel bad about. I think most of us on Mywayout are a bit looney. I know I have certainly needed psychiatric care in the past

[Bill.P.]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

beatle;1116150 wrote: Hi Bill, good to see you back here!



You were one of the real pioneers and an inspiration to me.

I look forward to getting all of the real story back, plus everything you have discovered in the interim.

Yeah I agree, it was a bit of an asinine thing to do to take my posts down. I still have them somewhere and will post them back up on the website I have finished.
Its actually all designed in fireworks 3 years late of course.
I just need to figure out to get the design into dreamweaver. I have the host name. Just the last technical hurdle.
Nice to see you again as well Beatle.
I'll be back on here fullforce as soon as I get through with this transition and moving and we can chat more

[Bill.P.]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

Lo0p;1116696 wrote: Hey Bill!

I pretty much went straight to a switch dose in a couple of days (and hit it) and have been fine ever since (Nov. '09). I had serious SE's, but I was out of work and well...I kinda liked 'em. :nutso:

I'm totally with you on the "need to feel the power of the baclofen" (if I may quote you from memory ).

I'm often left wondering if people are manufacturing SE's and going past their switch dosages by titrating so slowly. But they call me the "anomaly". I tend to keep my mouth shut and only make noise every once in a while...till they brush me under the rug again. :upset:

lol, glad to hear LoOp
Ill probably go nutso too after this move of mine. Oops, just selfassessed, I am already nutso lol.
I do think its important to hit the switch quickly. Its an awesome feeling.

I have to tend to agree with you on the manufacturing side-effects, however, they definitely feel real to them. That's why a physician is there in an ideal situation to reassure the patient, assess them, change dosing etc...
So in some sense, in a real sense they are still experiencing side effects that are very real. Take my wife for instance. She will flat freak out when given medication. She had an anaphylactic reaction to antibiotics one time in the hospital. Luckily she was right there in the hospital.
But ever since, anything I give her. She has a physical and mental reaction to just being given medication. One time, I had a research chemical called rimonabant. Its a diet drug. She wanted to try it so I gave it to her. She was throwing up, freaking out.

So I said its probably psychological reaction. In any event, she thought I was a complete asshole for telling her that. So I am loathe to tell anyone online that what they are having going on is not real. Guess what the response would be, yup, Id be an asshole. It does seem that sideeffects occurs at a much higher percentage on chatboards than in the research. But although small. there will be people with real side effects as well. Online, it would be impossible to separate the two populations, so we could easily be wrong by saying its in their head and not only be wrong Theyd just call us assholes, which would be correct as we are assuming that they arent part of the real population experiencing side effects.
Guess we should just keep our mouths shut on that topic

Nice to see you again as well

[Bill.P.]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

RedThread12;1116618 wrote: I just want to say Hi and glad to see you back, BillP. I started bac in Oct. '09, when you were here and posting great stuff that helped me make the decision. Thanks for that. It's an on-going experiment, but I've been doing great re bac and al all this time. Ahhhh . . . also interested in the bac/xanax thing. Recently went through an incredibly stressful period in which I did drink more on some days. Nothing big, no damage, but will stay aware that xanax could be a better alternative.

Yeah, isn't it wild to see how wild the board has become since the 'olden' days. There are a couple of stories that got "locked down" because people were pushing the envelop so strongly, making others uncomfortable. Check out as much of "Otter's" threads as you can get back to and see if you can find "Susannah" before she got shut down. VERY interesting, powerful and successful bac stories that punched right through that old envelop.

Thanks Redthread for the welcome back and nice to have so many of the old friends greet me from back in those days.
I look forward to chatting more like back then.
I'll have to definitely check out your suggestions when I have free time soon

[Bill.P.]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

gratitude;1116864 wrote: hey billp,
welcome back. can't wait to hear how and what you a doing now. still doing film projects? grat.

Yes, well geez, I have been sooo very busy. So my current project is a cardiac patient with an LVAD. Just a simple youtube video.
My baclofen project got shelved. My subjects werent not motivated to use baclofen and stopped taking it and started drinking again. Kind of wastes the effort.
And then one of them died a couple of months ago and I felt pretty bad about that. Thats why I have spent so much time making the website.
On that site, I'll just have podcasts. I have a HD studio and a five minute podcast would much quicker. However, as I mentioned. I am essentially retiring. I am just too busy as evidenced by the fact. I just cant get things done that I want to do.
So with no longer working I can focus on the things I want to do.
Plus, I have a couple of businesses to run so I wont really be retired, just have time to do the cool stuff Ive wanted to do for years with baclofen and some other research chemicals

[Bill.P.]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

Zenstyle;1117270 wrote: Ach, yer still wordy! I could never manage to concentrate long enough to be as prolific as thou! )

I have to thank you for something.... I eventually made my way to Benadryl... what a lifesaver that's been. I shoulda listened... I know!!!

Just took one actually and will prolly be slumbering soon... I'll think of you as I brush my teeth in the a.m.... all rested and suchlike... )

lolol, how's my old friend zenstyle doing? I think if my wife knew all the PMs we shared she'd be pissed
Oh cool on the benadryl, yeah, its great combined with baclofen for sleep if tolerated.
I actually really like the stuff particularly for the firstline anti-nausea effects. Cheap and works alot of the time in mild cases, 12.5mg half a dose is great for that.
Nice to see you again

[Bill.P.]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

bleep;1117306 wrote: Hi Bill,

Some interesting stuff here, thanks. I have a couple of questions if you don't mind?

May I ask what research you are basing your conclusions on? Specifically the 5% baclofen resistant subset. As I understand it, those sort of results and conclusions could only come from a large scale study.

As I understand it, baclofen is the only agent that acts on GABA-b specifically, so how will supplementing it with Xanax help? Or are you suggesting this as an alternative after people reach indifference?

Dammit Bleep!
I just spent 2 hours trying to find the research I based that off of. My desktop computer is packed up and I believe thats where it is bookmarked.
So I base this on baclofen resistance in effects of spasicity (I think I have a complete mental block on spelling that word spasticity) in patients with baclofen pumps, approx. 5% do not respond if I recall correctly and I would think if one were immune from its effects on muscle spasticity it would be a logical leap to make as to the effects of alcohol reduction.
And its about what I have seen from corresponding with so many baclofen users online. About 1 out 20 fail to hit their switch with baclofen as they report even after high titration> I used to not think that was the case but I am more convinced now that a very small minority simply will not respond to baclofen.
And this of course suggests a spectrum of response, but people who respond to low dose, some to high dose and some wont respond at all. So that is the logical end of the continuum of response to baclofen which is also true of nearly every medication. SOme respond well, some mildly, some moderately, some not at all. Thats why there are several medications for say blood pressure or heart failure.
I will find the study for you. Its important and I did bookmark. If I dont find it, well then I am doomed to dozens of hours of searching for it becauase I believe it is a very important discussion on baclofen response. I cant believe I didnt email the link to myself. Maybe I did but I have to wade throough all of the links on baclofen to find it.
Argghe lol

[Bill.P.]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

Ukblonde;1117349 wrote: And what does "Immune" mean?It simply doesn't work with them?

I'm interested in any cases where people had bad interactions with baclofen, in other words people where the side effects just didn't diminish and who didn't get the positive SEs such as increased confidence, happiness etc.

Allergy/Bad Reaction or something else?

Yes, I am basing my thoughts about immunity based on immunity to muscle spasticity seen in baclofen pumps. It would be a logical leap if it didnt work for that condition it may not work for others.
As far as side effects go. Baclofen is very low but there are definitely sideeffects in certain people. Overall it is very safe and much much much safer than continuing to drink. I dont know of anyone having sideeffects that are worse than terrible hangovers.
Except for a couple of people I have spoken with online that clearly had other issues at work. In which case I strongly recommended they see a psychiatrist for evaluation.
Many drugs can exacerbate an underlying psychiatric illness and in the cases I could clearly see that they were experiencing significant psychiatric symptoms and in one case psychosis. However the person had a history of similar experiences without the presence of baclofen.
At any rate. The chances of having something other medically at work is a higher percentage of baclofen side effect.
If side effects persist, I wouldnt hesitate for assessment by a qualified physician. A psychiatrist is probably the best bet. Or a neurologist depending on what is being experienced. I just met a guy who was having temporal lobe seizures in which he was having taste hallucinations. So this cant be ruled out online via a chatboard. It needs to be professionally addressed

[Bill.P.]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

beatle;1117407 wrote: Very good questions, Bleep. The kind that would normally pop into my head, if it was not muddled with and mired in the idea that there are actually 5% bac resistant people -- and it would make sense that I was one.

This was, of course, similar to having a cannonball placed carefully on my chest (making the irrational part of my brain gain enormous ground over the usually scientific, or just logical, part of my brain, which is ever critical (fat too critical many have said), and looking for explanations and inconsistencies).

However, I should mention that when Bill P. threw the xanax idea out there, I took it to mean that the 5% bac-resistant group could be helped with concomitant xanax dosing, which in turn would explain Dr. L.'s stance on xanax, which has proved rather puzzling to many of us on here. So I also took Bill P.'s comments to offer hope. Perhaps under the guidance of Dr. L, there is something to this, and this is the way (maybe the only way) I can achieve indifference, and frankly, any way that gets me there is ok by me. (Although one does have to be wary, and introducing a highly addictive benzo into an alcoholic's brain sounds pretty nutty and goes against all intuition... and logic)

So, I will wait to hear more of this discussion, get some facts and sources so I can do my own research and reach my own conclusions (I never believe anyone else, anyway)

Thanks for bringing those questions up, bleep. Pulled me back to ground level. (Not ground zero).

And thanks, Ne, for your succinct "Nope. Not so." In typical Nethority fashion. I'll take your word on it. I will.

I wouldnt lose hope my friend Beatle. You just cant give up, thats not an option. Some people have a devil of a time giving up smoking but they just cant quit trying and eventually they will succeed if they are committed to it.
And you are correct, I was merely throwing out an option with the xanax as it is something I successfully used to deal with transitioning which is more stressful than the baclofen could ameliorate.
With the xanax, it helped significantly with stress reduction.
I'll have to look up Dr. L.
If you could provide a link to his xanax discussion it would be much appreciated.

I am going to find the information for you guys and gals about the baclofen resistance. It drove me nuts that I couldnt find it this morning, I do have it saved somewhere. Just my desktop computer is packed up. I am going to get it for you. I believe I have it on my website prototype but I will get you the info.

Ok, Ive got to get some work done.
Thanks for everyone greeting me back home. Its great to interact again and as I said. I will be back soon when the dust settles and I have the time. I will have loads of time soon, in fact, you'll all probably get sick of my long wordy posts soon

[Lo0p]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

Bill.P.;1119236 wrote: I have to tend to agree with you on the manufacturing side-effects, however, they definitely feel real to them. That's why a physician is there in an ideal situation to reassure the patient, assess them, change dosing etc...
So in some sense, in a real sense they are still experiencing side effects that are very real. Take my wife for instance. She will flat freak out when given medication. She had an anaphylactic reaction to antibiotics one time in the hospital. Luckily she was right there in the hospital.
But ever since, anything I give her. She has a physical and mental reaction to just being given medication. One time, I had a research chemical called rimonabant. Its a diet drug. She wanted to try it so I gave it to her. She was throwing up, freaking out.

So I said its probably psychological reaction. In any event, she thought I was a complete asshole for telling her that. So I am loathe to tell anyone online that what they are having going on is not real. Guess what the response would be, yup, Id be an asshole. It does seem that sideeffects occurs at a much higher percentage on chatboards than in the research. But although small. there will be people with real side effects as well. Online, it would be impossible to separate the two populations, so we could easily be wrong by saying its in their head and not only be wrong Theyd just call us assholes, which would be correct as we are assuming that they arent part of the real population experiencing side effects.
Guess we should just keep our mouths shut on that topic

That is actually not what I meant at all. I meant that I have a hunch, in some cases, that the slow protocol manufactures/prolongs the SE's. I think that maybe a subset of us are more suited to get it done quicker and will actually suffer less SE's if it's done more aggressively.

But it's just a hunch.

[Bill.P.]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

Lo0p;1119379 wrote: That is actually not what I meant at all. I meant that I have a hunch, in some cases, that the slow protocol manufactures/prolongs the SE's. I think that maybe a subset of us are more suited to get it done quicker and will actually suffer less SE's if it's done more aggressively.

But it's just a hunch.

lol, ok sorry for getting you wrong. I misread your post. I had alot of posts to reply to and I think I may have replied to your post in haste upon further review. I apologize for the sloppy response
You seem to be stating that a slow protocol causes the side effects. Well if gets people to stop drinking faster and we know if they slow titrate up combining alcohol and baclofen. The side effects will be greater.
Is it indeed just the continued combining of alcohol with slow titrated baclofen causing all these people to have more severe side effects?

Interesting hypothesis and would make sense in the respect that continued drinking exacerbates it. Hitting the switch fast like we did means less alcohol combining in the human system causing side effects.
I think you maybe onto something there LoOp

[bleep]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

Bill.P.;1119249 wrote: Dammit Bleep!
I just spent 2 hours trying to find the research I based that off of. My desktop computer is packed up and I believe thats where it is bookmarked.
So I base this on baclofen resistance in effects of spasicity (I think I have a complete mental block on spelling that word spasticity) in patients with baclofen pumps, approx. 5% do not respond if I recall correctly and I would think if one were immune from its effects on muscle spasticity it would be a logical leap to make as to the effects of alcohol reduction.
And its about what I have seen from corresponding with so many baclofen users online. About 1 out 20 fail to hit their switch with baclofen as they report even after high titration> I used to not think that was the case but I am more convinced now that a very small minority simply will not respond to baclofen.
And this of course suggests a spectrum of response, but people who respond to low dose, some to high dose and some wont respond at all. So that is the logical end of the continuum of response to baclofen which is also true of nearly every medication. SOme respond well, some mildly, some moderately, some not at all. Thats why there are several medications for say blood pressure or heart failure.
I will find the study for you. Its important and I did bookmark. If I dont find it, well then I am doomed to dozens of hours of searching for it becauase I believe it is a very important discussion on baclofen response. I cant believe I didnt email the link to myself. Maybe I did but I have to wade throough all of the links on baclofen to find it.
Argghe lol

From what I've read, it would seem that it's a far greater percentage than 5, but that seems to be related by the many different causes of spasticity. I'm venturing into something I know very little about here though, so I'll stop there.

I'd really appreciate that study, although I'm not sure that the findings about spasticity would translate across to addiction, since it seems to address different areas. Again we suffer from a paucity of research. I would hesitate to throw statistics out about baclofen for that reason though.

[Bill.P.]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

bleep;1119388 wrote: From what I've read, it would seem that it's a far greater percentage than 5, but that seems to be related by the many different causes of spasticity. I'm venturing into something I know very little about here though, so I'll stop there.

I'd really appreciate that study, although I'm not sure that the findings about spasticity would translate across to addiction, since it seems to address different areas. Again we suffer from a paucity of research. I would hesitate to throw statistics out about baclofen for that reason though.

I understand your hesitancy about throwing statistics around but if I didnt conjecture on this forum 3 years ago, this discussion forum wouldn't exist. There were like 5 baclofen posts on this forum when I came here and there thousands now.
Sometimes, we need to think out loud about this and I stand behind my 5% figure for a number of reasons regarding to neurochemistry.
I will get you the research when I have my desktop setup.
No worries if you dont like my style of conjecturing out loud. We are all equals here, just pixels on a screen. I mean you no ill for standing by my statistics