Hi everyone from Bill.P.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

You people know that I never share private messages or even offline correspondence in this public forum, right? That's a cardinal rule. I'm about to break it.

I sent a private message, a nice one, to BillP. I received, in response, a message that he was very busy, still looking for the research etc...

In lieu of any actual research or thoughts about all of the things he suggested on here as fact based on research that only he had access to, he sent this quote from Wikipedia:

Baclofen is often the primary, or at least preliminary, drug treatment for spastic diplegia and more general spasticity-based mobility impairments. Research has not, however, shown it to be consistently effective in improving function for people with these issues.[7][8] Sometimes, effects are immediate and clear; other times, effects may be mild, vague, or nonexistent. What is known for sure is that, for unknown reasons, in about 5% of the spastic cerebral palsy people who try intrathecally-administered baclofen, the drug has no effect whatsoever on the person's spasticity. It does appear that intrathecal baclofen may be more effective than oral baclofen, but some believe the long-term risks of an intrathecal pump (including potential sudden infection, sudden malfunction leading to coma and death, etc.) outweigh the potential benefits. Many clinicians and/or patients choose not to administer baclofen intrathecally at all for such reasons. (Most manufacturers of intrathecal pumps strongly disagree with the belief that an intrathecal pump carries with it a significant or even remote risk of serious complication, despite such things having occurred often enough to warrant concern.) Manufacturers argue that a pump that fails shuts down, but this does not itself mean that a suddenly punctured or similarly compromised pump would not pose a deathly risk to its wearer.

The bold is his. This article is a discussion about intrathecal bac vs. oral bac related to spasticity. NOTHING at all to do with oral High Dose Bac for addicition treatment. And that was on June 1st.

So I call bull shit. On everything he posted here. On everything he said that was fact. On just about everything. But ESPECIALLY the stuff about Side Effects.

I've also taken the time to copy all of your words into a Word Document so that if you decide to erase your posts again, BillP, and come bac after I'm not actively involved, I'll be able to point out the times that you were just making stuff up.

If there's anything more threatening to MWO and the search for information about baclofen and addiction treatment than an "expert" who shares information without backing it up, I can't think of it.

Be wary, folks, of people who know more than we do, collectively. They're mostly liars and braggarts, or looking to make a dime.

Not just sayin.

Ne

[ignominious]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

Ne/Neva Eva;1126532 wrote: You people know that I never share private messages or even offline correspondence in this public forum, right? That's a cardinal rule. I'm about to break it.

I sent a private message, a nice one, to BillP. I received, in response, a message that he was very busy, still looking for the research etc...

In lieu of any actual research or thoughts about all of the things he suggested on here as fact based on research that only he had access to, he sent this quote from Wikipedia:

Baclofen is often the primary, or at least preliminary, drug treatment for spastic diplegia and more general spasticity-based mobility impairments. Research has not, however, shown it to be consistently effective in improving function for people with these issues.[7][8] Sometimes, effects are immediate and clear; other times, effects may be mild, vague, or nonexistent. What is known for sure is that, for unknown reasons, in about 5% of the spastic cerebral palsy people who try intrathecally-administered baclofen, the drug has no effect whatsoever on the person's spasticity

. It does appear that intrathecal baclofen may be more effective than oral baclofen, but some believe the long-term risks of an intrathecal pump (including potential sudden infection, sudden malfunction leading to coma and death, etc.) outweigh the potential benefits. Many clinicians and/or patients choose not to administer baclofen intrathecally at all for such reasons. (Most manufacturers of intrathecal pumps strongly disagree with the belief that an intrathecal pump carries with it a significant or even remote risk of serious complication, despite such things having occurred often enough to warrant concern.) Manufacturers argue that a pump that fails shuts down, but this does not itself mean that a suddenly punctured or similarly compromised pump would not pose a deathly risk to its wearer.

The bold is his. This article is a discussion about intrathecal bac vs. oral bac related to spasticity. NOTHING at all to do with oral High Dose Bac for addicition treatment. And that was on June 1st.

So I call bull shit. On everything he posted here. On everything he said that was fact. On just about everything. But ESPECIALLY the stuff about Side Effects.

I've also taken the time to copy all of your words into a Word Document so that if you decide to erase your posts again, BillP, and come bac after I'm not actively involved, I'll be able to point out the times that you were just making stuff up.

If there's anything more threatening to MWO and the search for information about baclofen and addiction treatment than an "expert" who shares information without backing it up, I can't think of it.

Be wary, folks, of people who know more than we do, collectively. They're mostly liars and braggarts, or looking to make a dime.

Not just sayin.

Ne

That's nailed him. Whoopwoooo!
He hasn't posted for nearly 2 weeks but this should confirm that he never posts or pms someone without serious thought first.:l

[beatle]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

Ne/Neva Eva;1126532 wrote: You people know that I never share private messages or even offline correspondence in this public forum, right? That's a cardinal rule. I'm about to break it.

I sent a private message, a nice one, to BillP. I received, in response, a message that he was very busy, still looking for the research etc...

In lieu of any actual research or thoughts about all of the things he suggested on here as fact based on research that only he had access to, he sent this quote from Wikipedia:

Baclofen is often the primary, or at least preliminary, drug treatment for spastic diplegia and more general spasticity-based mobility impairments. Research has not, however, shown it to be consistently effective in improving function for people with these issues.[7][8] Sometimes, effects are immediate and clear; other times, effects may be mild, vague, or nonexistent. What is known for sure is that, for unknown reasons, in about 5% of the spastic cerebral palsy people who try intrathecally-administered baclofen, the drug has no effect whatsoever on the person's spasticity. It does appear that intrathecal baclofen may be more effective than oral baclofen, but some believe the long-term risks of an intrathecal pump (including potential sudden infection, sudden malfunction leading to coma and death, etc.) outweigh the potential benefits. Many clinicians and/or patients choose not to administer baclofen intrathecally at all for such reasons. (Most manufacturers of intrathecal pumps strongly disagree with the belief that an intrathecal pump carries with it a significant or even remote risk of serious complication, despite such things having occurred often enough to warrant concern.) Manufacturers argue that a pump that fails shuts down, but this does not itself mean that a suddenly punctured or similarly compromised pump would not pose a deathly risk to its wearer.

The bold is his. This article is a discussion about intrathecal bac vs. oral bac related to spasticity. NOTHING at all to do with oral High Dose Bac for addicition treatment. And that was on June 1st.

So I call bull shit. On everything he posted here. On everything he said that was fact. On just about everything. But ESPECIALLY the stuff about Side Effects.

I've also taken the time to copy all of your words into a Word Document so that if you decide to erase your posts again, BillP, and come bac after I'm not actively involved, I'll be able to point out the times that you were just making stuff up.

If there's anything more threatening to MWO and the search for information about baclofen and addiction treatment than an "expert" who shares information without backing it up, I can't think of it.

Be wary, folks, of people who know more than we do, collectively. They're mostly liars and braggarts, or looking to make a dime.

Not just sayin.

Ne

I mostly agree with you Ne (as I usually do -- mostly, that is).

But Bill P was a very inspiring force earlier (before he erased his posts -- which I missed the reason of since I wasn't on MWO all that often). Still can;t forgive him for that... extremely selfish and egocentric, no two ways about it. The least he could do was to just delete or edit the posts he was unhappy about, and explain the reason for editing.

And I don't remember him quoting strange, unfounded or made-up statistics in those posts. Of course we all know the state of my memory (or lack thereof):upset: But I missed the controversy, so maybe it was about that kind of thing? Of course I have no way of checking back
Anyway, I also tend to go with Ig's instinct (although I think he may have meant it sarcastically) --

ignominious;1126602 wrote: That's nailed him. Whoopwoooo!
He hasn't posted for nearly 2 weeks but this should confirm that he never posts or pms someone without serious thought first.:l

But maybe he really is looking for some research to back up what he believes to be true. Notice he did not post that Wiki quote on the thread. I think it is because he knows that doesn't necessarily apply to alcoholism, and that people will call him on it and it will tarnish any other statistics he comes up with subsequently. Seriously, Wikipedia in lieu of the research he promised? And related to an entirely different disease? He would be laughed out of here, and he knows it (I think -- I'll take it back if he comes here with that quote, but then he will indeed ruin his reputation and be laughed off this thread.

I'm thinking it's perhaps (hopefully) possible he really thinks he saw it in relation to alcohol somewhere, and is actually trying to find it.

On the very negative side: He should have at least responded to Ne's very serious challenges in a serious way. His failure to do so makes him look like a sham, and it appears as if he is actually admitting to what Ne alleges. I had hoped he would respond (or did I miss that?), even if just to say that he really is serious and he really plans to come back with the hard evidence as soon as he can, and defend himself at least a little bit.

And if he doesn't respond to this post from Ne, it will certainly confirm (for us) that he is indeed full of bs, as Ne says.

[tiptronic_ct]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

Ne/Neva Eva;1126532 wrote: You people know that I never share private messages or even offline correspondence in this public forum, right? That's a cardinal rule. I'm about to break it.

I sent a private message, a nice one, to BillP. I received, in response, a message that he was very busy, still looking for the research etc...

In lieu of any actual research or thoughts about all of the things he suggested on here as fact based on research that only he had access to, he sent this quote from Wikipedia:

Baclofen is often the primary, or at least preliminary, drug treatment for spastic diplegia and more general spasticity-based mobility impairments. Research has not, however, shown it to be consistently effective in improving function for people with these issues.[7][8] Sometimes, effects are immediate and clear; other times, effects may be mild, vague, or nonexistent. What is known for sure is that, for unknown reasons, in about 5% of the spastic cerebral palsy people who try intrathecally-administered baclofen, the drug has no effect whatsoever on the person's spasticity

. It does appear that intrathecal baclofen may be more effective than oral baclofen, but some believe the long-term risks of an intrathecal pump (including potential sudden infection, sudden malfunction leading to coma and death, etc.) outweigh the potential benefits. Many clinicians and/or patients choose not to administer baclofen intrathecally at all for such reasons. (Most manufacturers of intrathecal pumps strongly disagree with the belief that an intrathecal pump carries with it a significant or even remote risk of serious complication, despite such things having occurred often enough to warrant concern.) Manufacturers argue that a pump that fails shuts down, but this does not itself mean that a suddenly punctured or similarly compromised pump would not pose a deathly risk to its wearer.

The bold is his. This article is a discussion about intrathecal bac vs. oral bac related to spasticity. NOTHING at all to do with oral High Dose Bac for addicition treatment. And that was on June 1st.

So I call bull shit. On everything he posted here. On everything he said that was fact. On just about everything. But ESPECIALLY the stuff about Side Effects.

I've also taken the time to copy all of your words into a Word Document so that if you decide to erase your posts again, BillP, and come bac after I'm not actively involved, I'll be able to point out the times that you were just making stuff up.

If there's anything more threatening to MWO and the search for information about baclofen and addiction treatment than an "expert" who shares information without backing it up, I can't think of it.

Be wary, folks, of people who know more than we do, collectively. They're mostly liars and braggarts, or looking to make a dime.

Not just sayin.

Ne

Whoah, NE!!!

You know I love you, but that was quite a harsh post.

I'm not going to get sucked into the detail of it, but suffice it to say that I think your reaction is wayyyyyyyyy out of proportion.

Just as we base our claims about the safety of baclofen on it's use long-term use in the treatment of spasticity, it stands to reason that we can draw inferences about other aspects (such as "immunity"). Maybe even SEs. Whatever.

I too, am disappointed that Bill hasn't been around to elaborate on what he has said and provide "proof", but I don't think the man has done anything to deserve the kind of response he received from you.

You do have one hell of a way with words, though :goodjob: :H

[beatle]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

tiptronic_ct;1126638 wrote: Whoah, NE!!!

You know I love you, but that was quite a harsh post.

I'm not going to get sucked into the detail of it, but suffice it to say that I think your reaction is wayyyyyyyyy out of proportion.

Just as we base our claims about the safety of baclofen on it's use long-term use in the treatment of spasticity, it stands to reason that we can draw inferences about other aspects (such as "immunity"). Maybe even SEs. Whatever.

I too, am disappointed that Bill hasn't been around to elaborate on what he has said and provide "proof", but I don't think the man has done anything to deserve the kind of response he received from you.

You do have one hell of a way with words, though :goodjob: :H

That's basically exactly what I was trying to say, in a very long-winded way (my fort? )

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

I started to respond, beatle and tip. But I think I'll wait for Bill.

Please know that your comments are noted. I wrote that post after a good deal of thought. I stand by it.

And thanks.

[ignominious]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

Ne/Neva Eva;1126700 wrote: I wrote that post after a good deal of thought. I stand by it.

And thanks.

Righteous as ever Ne and to keep confusion to the minimum, my previous post was sarcastic.

[beatle]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

Thanks for that Ig.

I think my post took that possibility into account, but it is always good to clarify. Too damn many misunderstandings here on the threads and in internet communications in general. Always a good idea to preempt them.

[Murphyx]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, then it’s a duck. I mean bullshitter. I don’t mean if it quacks, it’s a bullshitter. I mean if it smells of bullshit and it looks like bullshit, then it’s probably bullshit, just not a duck.

I wasn’t sure whether the duck analogy (metaphor? Even though it’s also a simile) was too abstract. I’m trying to do that subtle thing but it’s just not working out.

[beatle]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

Murphyx;1127081 wrote:

I wasn?t sure whether the duck analogy (metaphor? Even though it?s also a simile) was too abstract.

Ne should be able to clear that up for you.

[tawnyfrog]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

Why thank you, Sunrise! That'll really help.

Bye bye

[Bill.P.]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

Ne/Neva Eva;1126532 wrote: You people know that I never share private messages or even offline correspondence in this public forum, right? That's a cardinal rule. I'm about to break it.

I sent a private message, a nice one, to BillP. I received, in response, a message that he was very busy, still looking for the research etc...

In lieu of any actual research or thoughts about all of the things he suggested on here as fact based on research that only he had access to, he sent this quote from Wikipedia:

Baclofen is often the primary, or at least preliminary, drug treatment for spastic diplegia and more general spasticity-based mobility impairments. Research has not, however, shown it to be consistently effective in improving function for people with these issues.[7][8] Sometimes, effects are immediate and clear; other times, effects may be mild, vague, or nonexistent. What is known for sure is that, for unknown reasons, in about 5% of the spastic cerebral palsy people who try intrathecally-administered baclofen, the drug has no effect whatsoever on the person's spasticity

. It does appear that intrathecal baclofen may be more effective than oral baclofen, but some believe the long-term risks of an intrathecal pump (including potential sudden infection, sudden malfunction leading to coma and death, etc.) outweigh the potential benefits. Many clinicians and/or patients choose not to administer baclofen intrathecally at all for such reasons. (Most manufacturers of intrathecal pumps strongly disagree with the belief that an intrathecal pump carries with it a significant or even remote risk of serious complication, despite such things having occurred often enough to warrant concern.) Manufacturers argue that a pump that fails shuts down, but this does not itself mean that a suddenly punctured or similarly compromised pump would not pose a deathly risk to its wearer.

The bold is his. This article is a discussion about intrathecal bac vs. oral bac related to spasticity. NOTHING at all to do with oral High Dose Bac for addicition treatment. And that was on June 1st.

So I call bull shit. On everything he posted here. On everything he said that was fact. On just about everything. But ESPECIALLY the stuff about Side Effects.

I've also taken the time to copy all of your words into a Word Document so that if you decide to erase your posts again, BillP, and come bac after I'm not actively involved, I'll be able to point out the times that you were just making stuff up.

If there's anything more threatening to MWO and the search for information about baclofen and addiction treatment than an "expert" who shares information without backing it up, I can't think of it.

Be wary, folks, of people who know more than we do, collectively. They're mostly liars and braggarts, or looking to make a dime.

Not just sayin.

Ne

Well this is very weird, I respond to a PM, stating I am very busy, I dont have time to provide you with data, its in wikipedia, as to the 5% data regarding intrathecal baclofen.
And to my previous posts it falls exactly in line with nonresponders of any sorts of medication.
Which is, well, the truth and fact of all medicines. It has to do with liver enzymes, kidney enzymes, lung enzymes and a whole host of others of how well I person responds to a medication.

I am quite wordy, perhaps THESE concepts have been lost in the mix.

I find it quite obviously bizarre to this person calling me a Charlatane regarding baclofen. I told her simple I am between moves, I think she is an interesting person, and I will find the studies when I have time. I pointed her simply to wikipedia in the meantime to to just show her one example of baclofen resistance to a completely different issue.
Not figuring she would extrapolate this to such levels. I had 10 minutes to reply to her private message. I am astounded at finding this out when I finally have time to come back here.
Its almost scary, who is the neve eva a or whatever person"

Anyways, I always clearly prove my data in the past, Before I posted here, MWO had just a few spatterings of posts on baclofen. I spent hundreds of hours of my time to come up with explanations of how to titrate the dosages and even more important was the folks that logged about that.
I have been hands off from the beginning. But I find it almost amusingly funny that I think the person, compared to those who know me, and my posting, is obviously an active drunk.
I, when I have time am complete, educational, I will document sources.
I do not have time to respond to neva eva whose responses are emotional of a drunk poster.
I am busy at the time. I unfortunately missed Nevas' rant while she was on a vodka binge
I can help those who PM me as well. Except for those who took her side while I was not here to defend myself. I do have my limits

[Bill.P.]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

beatle;1126629 wrote: I mostly agree with you Ne (as I usually do -- mostly, that is).

But Bill P was a very inspiring force earlier (before he erased his posts -- which I missed the reason of since I wasn't on MWO all that often). Still can;t forgive him for that... extremely selfish and egocentric, no two ways about it. The least he could do was to just delete or edit the posts he was unhappy about, and explain the reason for editing.

And I don't remember him quoting strange, unfounded or made-up statistics in those posts. Of course we all know the state of my memory (or lack thereof):upset: But I missed the controversy, so maybe it was about that kind of thing? Of course I have no way of checking back
Anyway, I also tend to go with Ig's instinct (although I think he may have meant it sarcastically) --



But maybe he really is looking for some research to back up what he believes to be true. Notice he did not post that Wiki quote on the thread. I think it is because he knows that doesn't necessarily apply to alcoholism, and that people will call him on it and it will tarnish any other statistics he comes up with subsequently. Seriously, Wikipedia in lieu of the research he promised? And related to an entirely different disease? He would be laughed out of here, and he knows it (I think -- I'll take it back if he comes here with that quote, but then he will indeed ruin his reputation and be laughed off this thread.

I'm thinking it's perhaps (hopefully) possible he really thinks he saw it in relation to alcohol somewhere, and is actually trying to find it.

On the very negative side: He should have at least responded to Ne's very serious challenges in a serious way. His failure to do so makes him look like a sham, and it appears as if he is actually admitting to what Ne alleges. I had hoped he would respond (or did I miss that?), even if just to say that he really is serious and he really plans to come back with the hard evidence as soon as he can, and defend himself at least a little bit.

And if he doesn't respond to this post from Ne, it will certainly confirm (for us) that he is indeed full of bs, as Ne says.

Beatle, How long as it been since I have posted here.
I have nothing to prove'
Some may say I am the world's most leading authroity on baclfoen. Some just ask me where is the nearest McDonalds?'"

I do not care, Beatle, 2 years ago was the last time I posted, I really do not have time to post Neva Eva who was by the type and manner, I was being courteous, she or he was drunk of their ass.
I respondd in scientific terms. I did not have the scientific study in front of me, I told this person, I have it, its saved on another computer. I have to continue my move

I am COMPLETELY SHOCKED TO COME BACK 2-3 WEEKS LATER AND HERE MY BRUSH OFF AS TO FULFILLING HER WHIM ABOUT THE STUDIES.
I mean for jeebus sakes, find them themselves

[Lo0p]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

Not taking sides but, NE hasn't been drunk in months Bill.

[bleep]

Hi everyone from Bill.P.

Have you managed to access your research yet?