Me and Bac

[beatle]

Me and Bac

p.s. on that post:

My intention is not to encourage bac-bashing, but to share information so that we all can be successful with bac.

This is actually exactly what I meant to say:

Ne/Neva Eva;1119560 wrote: And all the rest of us!
Especially those of us that are not actually manufacturing our side effects and are looking for a way to mitigate them so that we can find the goal--indifference.
It's there. It's achievable. With a plan and some forethought and lots of support.
:h
Ne

[ik1966]

Me and Bac

paroxetine

is anybody taking antidepressents?
i think because the se's from antidepressants are so terribly bad, maybe i dont't feel the se's from the bac i have them like: somnolence, headdache, tinnitus don't go to the toilet, vivid dreams, stoned feeling but the positive feelings too...ike more muscular relaxation ,less anxiety,less compulsive ,less depressed but i am titrating up very slowly 5-10 mg. every 3-5:new::new::new: days
i hope some moment you feel this too
i am dutch so maybe my englisch is not so well
and i don't express myself very well...
it is good to focus on the possitive things too...:thanks:for listening...
hopefully everybody is less distressed about the se's i think it wasn't my meaning to upset everybody here:h:h

[Guest]

Me and Bac

Zephra

I hear you, I suffered terribly on baclofen and it completely took over my entire life. I know some people think I baclofen bash, or an an anti. I'm not I can see quite clearly it has definite uses and can be a cure. I could actually conjure up the names and faces of a couple of people not half a mile from here for whom it would work for. Just doesn't work for me, and it also so happens it would not be in the interests of my safety and sanity to approach those people, I just hope they find it somehow else.

Anyway to the point. SEs exist. Personally I became a very sick, ill person on baclofen. Someone close to me has only just been telling me the truth of what he saw, he kept quiet at the time hoping Baclofen would cure me.

SEs are real but if you can push through them and it works for you that is great(well it's better than that actually!). Just as many here have done too.

[moglor]

Me and Bac

ik1966: I take Wellbutrin. I don't have any SEs from the antidepressant. From the baclofen, I have somnolence, tinnitus, vivid dreams, stoned feeling, trouble with balance, numbness/tingling, and some mild acid reflux. I also experience some mild sexual side effects: increased libido, but it takes me much longer to reach climax. I am at 212.5mg/day, and my drinking has just tapered off fairly considerably, although my last "switch" dose was closer to 250mg/day.

Yes, the SEs are real, and yes, some people cannot cope with them for whatever reason. I believe they can be exacerbated by continuing to drink, not drinking enough water, having a poor diet, not sleeping properly, or taking other medications/drugs. Some people have found supplements help, others have found they cause more problems. Your milage may vary, so the only thing you can do is try different things to see what works and what doesn't. I can unequivocally say that arguing about what works and what doesn't does not work to reduce SEs. :-)

-John

[ignominious]

Me and Bac

This is too much to go unanswered, sorry in advance if anyone gets upset!

bleep;1119374 wrote: Hmmm. A member not so long ago was shot down in flames for suggesting that SE's were psychosomatic. While I agree that it may make some of them a little worse, there is no doubt that the SE's from baclofen are very, very real, and very discomforting.

The part that I've put into italics, actually is what I was saying.


beatle;1119577 wrote:
... people insinuating that the SEs are psychosomatic, would appear to be full of shit (and sorely lacking in compassion), but that's just from where I'm standing.

Anyway, a while back people started writing freely about their SEs, to the great relief and huge benefit of other users suffering, and to all other users and potential users. (This was pretty much the case until a huge discussion about SEs being psychosomatic started, based, again, on bac users who didn't suffer major SEs (and had little compassion for those who did.) Far from being helpful, it was demoralizing and likely kept people from discussing/divulging their SEs as much -- who wants to be branded as having psychosomatic SEs?

My SEs came completely unexpectedly and most certainly were not psychosomatic.

Beatle I suggest you get a dictionary and learn the meaning of the word psychosomatic. I also suggest that you stop whining about psychosomatics otherwise people may think the lady doth protest too much.

Ftr the I have a great deal of compassion for people suffering the SEs, psychosomatic or not they are real and can be very uncomfortable as ..... ftr again .... I know from experience.

Sorry for the quote, I do hope that I am not the last straw. Oh yes, we already had that about a week ago, so please don't stomp of again. I sincerely wish you well Beatle and have another suggestion that it may be time to start listening to some level headed people here.

Hi Zephra

[redhead77]

Me and Bac

It always amazing me when anyone insinuates there aren't major and life altering side effects to baclofen. I don't think it's for many of us, I think it's for most of us. Beatle, I will challenge you. I didn't whine much on my way up, about how bad it was for me. It got so bad at 180mg that I didn't know what to do. I couldn't even remember to return phone calls (you know what I'm talking about). I had such severe memory problems, I couldn't function. I was incapacitated. You should have SEEN what my house looked like on any given day. I was hearing things and seeing things. Doing basic things like running errands, became a major challenge. One time with my 2 year old daughter in the car, I was returning from the grocery store, and the truck in front of me, looked like it was driving on its side. No joke. Talk about scary. I then wondered how I was going to get basics, like food in the house. All I could do is sit by this computer. I would read (and try to write) on MWO.

I also almost completely stopped drinking at this point. I prayed I was close. When I went up to 200mg, I knew if it didn't work, I would have to quit. I couldn't even fathom that, because I'm not a quitter, and I had put everything into this working. I also knew at this point, that I was more functional being an alcoholic. I hoped if I had to quit, there would be another option for me, in the future. The good news is, if you can find indifference, once you come back down, the side effects go away. Most of them anyway. A dose that was once problematic, may not be an issue at all. Originally, the dose of 120 cause me side effects. Now it feels good.

This isn't the placebo effect. No one here is taking a placebo. It's the real thing. We all have different side effects, too. And on very different doses. It's real and were taking enormous amounts of a drug. Why wouldn't it be? I'm sure in the case of baclofen, the evidenced based studies, were not done by pharmaceutical companies (I'm not even sure what evidenced based studies we are talking about, at this point). They have no interest. Quite often they are. I'm not sure I believe crap that big P offers. So even with studies, you have to be mindful of whose conducting them and everything we DON'T know.

Bac to you Z. I know you don't like going to the doctor. I don't either. I avoid it at all costs. I think you may find if you go say twice a year (or whatever makes you comfortable), to have your renal function monitored, that you might find some of your apprehension decreased. Dealing with the very real SEs and then worrying about something else coming about, causes even more distress.

About your current side effects. You're having ear pain? Is it pain, or a whooshing in the ears? I know many of us (myself included), have this whooshing, throbbing, ringing, or whatever people want to call it. I used to have it a lot at night. It was extremely annoying. Not that I am downplaying whatever is happening to you. I'm not.

As far as the swelling in the fingers and knees, I know others have complained about swelling. Your knees and not being able to walk are particularily concerning. It is impossible to function if we can't walk. Have you had anything like this before? Do you have gout, or any other diagnoses? Just wondering.

The feeling like total and complete shit? I relate completely. I felt like this until just recently.

[Zephra]

Me and Bac

Thanks for the support. Beatle appreciate the hug. Ik1966 I know you are just trying to help, so no problem. Ne and Red, here are my current symptoms.
Severe knee pain with swollen knees and swollen fingers.
Earaches
An extreme uneasiness in my body, like I am coming off of coke, clenching teeth and feeling stoned.
Lots more symptoms but these are the ones concerning me
Why I am concerned is that despite me being a drunk I am still pretty healthy and never sick. I do not take any medication but the bac. So for someone who always feels pretty good except for hangovers this is freaking me out. My swollen knees have been going on for over a week and a half.
I don’t even have a Doctor. I might go to a walk-in clinic and get some blood work done. It’s my kidneys I am most concerned for. I am afraid to go the Doctor, but if I am to continue with bac I better get my mind eased.
My prior dosing was 25mgs spread out evenly, I had got up to 120. My new dosing is 10mgs every 2 hours. I have dropped down to 80mgs and still no let up.
I just think it would be easier if the Doctors would talk about the side effects of Bac instead of ignoring them. Almost every article I read on Bac says no real side effects. Well bullshit to that. Bac makes me feel not well at all. z

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Me and Bac

Z, I'll let RedH and some others who know more offer some reflection on the knees. I simply don't know.

There aren't really any SEs listed for docs to refer to. What we're doing is taking a lot more bac, in a very different way, than it has been taken by most of the people who take it with a doctor's supervision.

i found a great deal of solace from having some routine blood work done. (I was fine.) I think it might be pretty important to do if you have a genetic history of something such as kidney disease, knowing that bac is mostly processed through the kidneys. That's as much as I know, though.

I will share with you that the single most debilitating thing I experienced during my titration up was fear. When I couldn't explain, or didn't know what was happening to me I got scared. I could not let that go, exactly, until I knew for sure that it wasn't 1. Just me experiencing this stuff and 2. That I was physically healthy.
Fortunately I wasn't alone, and neither are you. And I was fine and the chances are really, really good that you are too. So go to a doc in the box (that's what we call the walk in places here) ask them for a routine physical, tell them that you're taking xxmg of bac and let them do the rest. I have told doctors why I was taking bac but that I didn't want it in my medical records, and they have honored that request. That part is up to you. At 80mg/day you can say that you are taking it for spasticity.
Hang in, sweet woman. This too shall pass.
(also, you should call your healers. If they are truly healers than they will understand. imho.)
xo
Ne

[redhead77]

Me and Bac

Ne and Z. Look you rhyme! I don't know what to say about the knees. It could be any number of things. We always assume it's bac, and it just may be, but I don't know if you have something else going on. Like arthritis for instance. I guess it sounds like you're retaining water, because you are swollen other places. I would say do everything you should do for water retention. Increase fluid intake, decrease sodium intake. Elevate. Maybe apply ice or heat, experiment with the two to see what feels better. The best advice is Ne's. Go to the doc in a box, if you have one. I am aware in Canada that you have socialized medicine, so I'm not sure if that's an option for you. Could you call and get hooked up with a GP? I think at this point, it's important to be seen.

I wish I could offer you more Z. I sense that you are really suffering.

[beatle]

Me and Bac

ignominious;1119695 wrote:
Beatle I suggest you get a dictionary and learn the meaning of the word psychosomatic.
I wrote a paper on it in psyche 101, but that was 20 years ago. Nonetheless, the definition hasn't changed:

psy?cho?so?mat?ic
adj.
1. Of or relating to a disorder having physical symptoms but originating from mental or emotional causes.
2. Relating to or concerned with the influence of the mind on the body, especially with respect to disease.

(bolds are mine)

(Source: American Heritage Medical Dictionary, updated 2007)


ignominious;1119695 wrote: I also suggest that you stop whining about psychosomatics otherwise people may think the lady doth protest too much.

Ftr the I have a great deal of compassion for people suffering the SEs, psychosomatic or not they are real and can be very uncomfortable as ..... ftr again .... I know from experience.

Sorry for the quote, I do hope that I am not the last straw. Oh yes, we already had that about a week ago, so please don't stomp of again. I sincerely wish you well Beatle and have another suggestion that it may be time to start listening to some level headed people here.

Please note that ftr, I have never personally attacked anyone ever on this forum. I did not stomp off, but said I was going because people weren't nice. I should have explained it better then, and I did spend about 6 hours composing a post to explain exactly how traumatic it was for me, but decided it was pointless. Regardless, I don't know how to stomp off :no:.

(And PLEASE read the rest of this post before you stomp off. Ok?)

What happened was that I and many others were personally accosted, characters defamed, posts erased after we defended ourselves, making us look ridiculous, as a tone of complete acceptance of that sort of nastiness was set in the forum (I should say baclofen threads), whilst stalwart, levelheaded, pillars of the bac community here stood back and let it happen. I felt it was a place where I was no longer comfortable being open and honest, and, MOST importantly, I felt it would be highly detrimental to anybody seeking out information and support regarding baclofen. The living room, the MWO Salon, where I used to come, look forward to at the end of the day, for discussions, jokes, giving and getting advice and support, exchanging information, debating, and silliness, etc., became a place I didn't want to visit at all. It was quite traumatic for me (but obviously not for others, who didn't share the same history and relationship I had with MWO, where I have been for 4 years (pathetic as it seems).)

So, that said, this personal attack on me (above) does not by any means fall into the category of what would drive me (and others) away. Although I am surprised that the person who made this personal attack would do so in such, well, personal and rather nasty terms, it's certainly not anything to make me stomp off (not that I know how to), and I don't worry about it scaring others away, either. I mean, I know the guy, he knows me, we disagree on a lot, we have a meeting of minds on a lot. I think we care about each other. whatever. People gathered in the MWO salon sometimes irritate each other and say things a little over the line. I'm fine with that. btw, You were over the line, and you know it (won't say the name), but I irritated you, I get that, and even though I didn't mean it as a personal attack, you took it as one. So, there we are, people agreeing and disagreeing, sharing information, laughing, helping each other and pissing each other off sometimes. I'm comfortable in this MWO salon. (And nobody will ever make me stomp off, because I don't know how:H).

-beatle

p.s. psychosomatic still means what it did 20 years ago, and no matter how anyone tries to convolute the definition, and no matter how many ways there may be to interpret it, it means that the brain/mind/emotions create the symptoms. And in my case, and many others, this is simply not the case, and implying that bac SEs are psychosomatic will necessarily carry with it the implication that the mind has created the symptoms, which is quite a stigma to put on a suffering person. just sayin'.:l (can't believe I've used that emoticon twice now... and in one thread. But it comes from the heart.

[beatle]

Me and Bac

P.S.

Ig, this one is especially for you: :l

[beatle]

Me and Bac

P.S. number 2

Sorry for hijacking your thread, z. But it did relate to SEs.

[ignominious]

Me and Bac

beatle;1119577 wrote:
This was pretty much the case until a huge discussion about SEs being psychosomatic started, based, again, on bac users who didn't suffer major SEs (and had little compassion for those who did.) Far from being helpful, it was demoralizing and likely kept people from discussing/divulging their SEs as much

Far from preventing people discussing SEs the discussion was about SEs and in that discussion you included some rather personal insults. If you steadfastly refuse to consider an idea it doesn't automatically render that proposition unworthy. Sorry Beatle but you do seem to be rather firmly stuck in your preconceived notions.


beatle;1119864 wrote:

Please note that ftr, I have never personally attacked anyone ever on this forum.

I felt that at least one of your comments was very personal

What happened was that I and many others were personally accosted, characters defamed, posts erased after we defended ourselves

Sorry I didn't see that happening but it would be uncomfortable and unnecessary.

So, that said, this personal attack on me (above) does not by any means fall into the category of what would drive me (and others) away. Although I am surprised that the person who made this personal attack would do so in such, well, personal and rather nasty terms, btw, You were over the line, and you know it (won't say the name), but I irritated you, I get that, and even though I didn't mean it as a personal attack, you took it as one.

I presume it was me that was "over the line". I have no idea to what you are specifically referring unless it is a general comment on me daring to consider psychosomatic influences!

l (can't believe I've used that emoticon twice now... and in one thread. But it comes from the heart.

I can't believe you had to say 3 times that you weren't leaving, though I was very glad to hear it each time!:H

[ignominious]

Me and Bac

Don't mean this as a personal attack but rather fed up with the jibes about that thread. If you don't want to consider psychological possibilities pertaining to SEs, that is your perogative but implying that they are irrelevant and unworthy of discussion, is not.

beatle;1119577 wrote:
This was pretty much the case until a huge discussion about SEs being psychosomatic started, based, again, on bac users who didn't suffer major SEs (and had little compassion for those who did.) Far from being helpful, it was demoralizing and likely kept people from discussing/divulging their SEs as much

Far from preventing people discussing SEs the discussion was about SEs and in that discussion you included some rather personal insults. If you steadfastly refuse to consider an idea it doesn't automatically render that proposition unworthy. Sorry Beatle but you do seem to be rather firmly stuck in your preconceived notions.


beatle;1119864 wrote:
Please note that ftr, I have never personally attacked anyone ever on this forum.

What happened was that I and many others were personally accosted, characters defamed, posts erased after we defended ourselves

So, that said, this personal attack on me (above) does not by any means fall into the category of what would drive me (and others) away. Although I am surprised that the person who made this personal attack would do so in such, well, personal and rather nasty terms, [i]btw, You were over the line, and you know it (won't say the name), but I irritated you, I get that, and even though I didn't mean it as a personal attack, you took it as one.[/I

l (can't believe I've used that emoticon twice now... and in one thread. But it comes from the heart.

I felt that at least one of your comments was very personal on that thread

Sorry I didn't see that happening but it would be uncomfortable and unnecessary to get accosted.

I presume it was me that was "over the line". I have no idea to what you are specifically referring unless it is a general comment on me daring to consider psychosomatic influences!

I can't believe you had to say 3 times that you weren't leaving, though I was very glad to hear it each time!:H

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Me and Bac

um. thread. relevance?