Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

[Ne/Neva Eva]

This is one of the fascinating aspects of high-dose-baclofen treatment. It's unique, I think, to this kind of recovery.

I'd like to focus on what it means, for us, to be indifferent to alcohol. The decisions and thoughts we have post-indifference about drinking. How it affects our decision to take baclofen and how much and for how long. I am also interested in the idea of staying at a low dose in order to curtail one's alcoholic drinking.

I'd like to caution against it becoming a discussion of what is wrong with other methods. It's not about that, in the long run. We've tried that. This, I hope, will be a place to talk about drinking "like a normal person." Or not. From those on bac for those on bac.

I'll be back to deposit my own thoughts later.

:l
Ne

[bleep]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

bleep;1122120 wrote: I'm not sure how to word this post. I want to talk about why I moderate rather than abstain, a decision that a lot of people seem to think is foolish. I disagree, obviously. To start with, I suppose explaining what moderation means to me would be helpful.

Most nights, I'll have half a glass a wine. Depending on how that sits, I will have another glass, or not, and that is normally it for the night. Occasionally, the second glass will go down nicely, so I'll have a third, but that is pretty rare. Some nights I won't have anything, but it's not through a decision or choice, it just so happens that I don't have any that night, for whatever reason.

On the odd night, I will make a plan with mates to go out to the pub, and on days like that I will reduce my baclofen intake a little which increases the chances of having a few beers successfully. I have noticed that the next day it will also seem like a good idea to go out, but I am aware that this is just a result of playing with the dose, so I resist until normal service is resumed. I generally also get horrendous hangovers from relatively mild sessions now, so that helps to slow things down. This happens maybe once a month. Also, what I now regard as a session would be less than I used to consume on a random Tuesday night by myself.

Drinking now doesn't occupy any space in my thoughts, which is why this post has been so long in coming. I have just stopped thinking about it. The thirst that used to power me has disappeared, and that is what indifference has come to mean to me. I drink instead of abstaining because I like drinking. I never got to the stage of hating booze, but would have if I had gone much further. I hated what it did to me and how I reacted to it, but that is all gone now. The strange power that booze had over me is gone. I feel I am able to take the good from drinking, and leave the shit, for the first time.

The reason I say that I think this interferes with my maintenance dose and keeps it higher than it could potentially be is because booze is always a factor under this scenario. I am convinced that if I decided to abstain I would soon stop thinking about alcohol altogether, and would be able to reduce from 300mg's. How far, I have no idea. In fact, whether that's even true or not I have no idea, but it makes intuitive sense to me.

For many years, I used to lament about drinking like a normal person. Now I can. I am also reminded of Mr A, who I think was the first person that Dr Ameisen treated apart from himself. His aim was social drinking on a nightly basis to cope with the demands of his job, if I recall correctly, and I think he achieved it pretty much perfectly.

I'm aware that this is not the most popular response to indifference, but it works perfectly for me and I am very happy with the way things are going. I'd be interested to hear other points of view from people who have reached indifference and who approach it in a different fashion. Also from those who are approaching indifference - what you think it might mean to you? Are you planning on abstaining, and why? Is there any need to anymore?

.

[missyabby1]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

Hey bleep, you seem to be a very grounded person and offer much to people here. Maybe all you need to look out for is your drinking getting out of control again. If it does, you know what to do. You appear to me to be one of the most successful people using Baclofen. Why do you keep questioning ? Bleep, whether you keep drinking, or not, is your decision. You seem to keep disbelieving yourself? My belief is you do it your own way and then make a decision to be comfortable about that. Hard thoughts.

Love Missy xx

[bleep]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

Hey Missy,

Thanks for that, but I think if you could see inside my head you'd maybe reconsider calling me grounded! In the beginning I was very skeptical of my approach, and doubtful. You'll see my posts around that time raised the issue, as I was the first one that I was aware of that had reached indifference, then apparently ignored it!

I have come to the conclusion that you see in the post above - I am very content to be in the situation as it stands right now. The questions I ask at the end of the post were supposed to be for other people in the same situation as me, regarding baclofen and alcohol.

missyabby1;1122207 wrote: ...
My belief is you do it your own way and then make a decision to be comfortable about that. Hard thoughts.

...

What you say here is very true! It took me a while to realise this, and it is still not easy, both in this regard, and in life.

[missyabby1]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

No doubt about that bleep, just saying that you have been an inspration here, and in my mind, a very constant support person for everyone.

Missy xx

[tiptronic_ct]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

To me, abstinence is a no-brainer. I am an addict. I cannot drink. Period.

For me, baclofen isn't a cure. As miraculous as it has been for me, it is no more than a tool. A heavy-duty band-aid, if you will.

Yes, I will probably be able to drink moderately while taking it without turning into a raging alcoholic again overnight, but I fail to see why I would want to. I've had enough of this shit in my life. I'm just not interested any more. And to take it at high doses for the rest of my life just so that I can drink every now and again seems silly - it's just not worth it.

Best of luck to Bleep and others who choose the moderation route - each to his / her own.

[Guest]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

Tip

Food for thought indeed. At the moment I appear to be moderating as a result of the action of Naltrexone. It's not my ideal situation, and whilst I'm only drinking small amounts it is virtually every day. Am very aware this is a very fine line, but for me for now it's a lot better than I was previously.

Hopefully when it all settles down, then I'll be able to go AF totally.

[Lo0p]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

Without being dismissive, honestly, this is precisely what I don't do --- think about it.

I guess if you were going to lump me into a group you'd say I am a moderator. That doesn't make sense to me though. I'm not moderating anything.

I got a helluva lot more than I asked for. I don't have to think or even care about it. I drink whenever, however much I want and I still drink less than my mother.

[tiptronic_ct]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

Lo0p;1123012 wrote: Without being dismissive, honestly, this is precisely what I don't do --- think about it.
You're not being dismissive - we call it being indifferent.

But have you thought ahead? One year, two years, 5 years or more from now? I don't intend taking high-dose bac for the rest of my life. I'm giving myself the best chance I possibly can.

Lo0p;1123012 wrote: I guess if you were going to lump me into a group you'd say I am a moderator. That doesn't make sense to me though. I'm not moderating anything.
"Moderating", as I see it in the context of this discussion, is not so much a verb as an approach or philosophy about alcohol. As is abstinence. I'm not actively "abstaining" either - I don't drink. Simple.

Lo0p;1123012 wrote:
I got a helluva lot more than I asked for.

Now THAT is an understatement of note! So did I.


Lo0p;1123012 wrote:
I don't have to think or even care about it. I drink whenever, however much I want and I still drink less than my mother.

:H:H:H

You should get out more.

[Lo0p]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

tiptronic_ct;1123038 wrote: You're not being dismissive - we call it being indifferent.

But have you thought ahead? One year, two years, 5 years or more from now? I don't intend taking high-dose bac for the rest of my life. I'm giving myself the best chance I possibly can.
I plan on doing whatever it takes to maintain this state. I haven't bothered to titrate down and probably won't even try for a while. Still up in the air is whether I'd like to try TSM if I ever titrate low enough to get cravings.

So no. Nothing more than fleeting thoughts. Or rather, no concrete plans. It already is a distant memory, but I'd like to have it be an even more distant memory before I find out whether or not there is still a demon in there.

tiptronic_ct;1123038 wrote: :H:H:H

You should get out more.

Last time I went out bar hopping with my friends we went to three different bars. I ordered a cider at each. Every time we left to go to a different one I still had half my cider and had to chug it--which is easy because it's cider. If it were beer or any other kind of alcohol I'd probably get that all too familiar (now) feeling of revulsion when I think about trying to down anything alcoholic (or even take a sip sometimes). We went back to one of their houses and I finished off the night with a shot of some kind of nice whiskey. I was sure I felt buzzed or drunk as I wouldn't even consider driving home. But the reality is I had only had 4-6 units (depending on the size/strength of the ciders) over the course of six hours.

Anyway...I had a blast!!!

That was April 1st. Units consumed since then ~

[ignominious]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

Still a little premature for me to have formed a solid conviction about this yet but here are my feelings.

I have had a few drinks since the switch, some of them to drunkenness and the thing about alcohol is; that I just don't like it. It can be fun to get "out of your face " drunk in the same manner that it can be fun to ignite your farts but they are not modes of behavior that I aim to fully incorporate into my life style.

Having had an immense problem with alcohol in the past, I think it is foolhardy in the extreme to concentrate on the positive aspects of alcohol, indeed to give it more lip service than coffee is imo alcoholic thinking. To sing the praises of a chilled chardonnay when you've been drinking box wine for the last 10 years or romanticise alcohol in any way is buying into the alcoholic hype and needs attention. I'm sure I can appreciate a fine vintage just as I can appreciate filter coffee compared to Nescafe, it doesn't mean I shall be waxing lyrical about it.

I have had a fundamental shift in my view of alcohol, consciously and subliminally. I no longer regard it as a recreational drug. Like Loop I hopefully will drink as much and whenever I want and like Tip I also don't want to stay at high dose bac for ever.

Alcohol doesn't do it for me anymore so what's the point!

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

Alcohol doesn't do it for me anymore, either.

I don't really think about drinking. I only rarely, once a month or so, have an urge to party. As in drink more than normal, and have fun with friends. I never have the urge to drink alone to drunkenness, sitting on my couch zoned out in front of something inane, and lose my ability to think.

I still have alcohol as a default, though. Sitting on the porch after a productive day and a glass of wine seems like a foregone conclusion.

I've committed to abstinence a couple of times, post-indifference and not followed through. The occasional beer, or less than a beer, doesn't seem like a threat to long term sobriety. But I said I wouldn't, and I do anyway. I actually have the ability to follow through on my commitments these days, so why am I drinking at all? That worries me.

I'm not sure that bac, increasing it or not, will help that. I think I need to find something else to drink! (Seltzer just isn't cutting it in those moments.) Add to that that it's something I've always dreamed about: I definitely equate drinking a cool glass of chardonnay with adulthood. I come back, again and again, to the fact that it's not the bac. It's the default habit.

I also think, though, that I'm missing something, based on the experiences related by lo0p and Terryk.

And there's the what if. Tip, I think that the whole addict is an addict is an addict thing is a function of recovery-thinking, and not a reflection of what it is to take bac. That said, we have no long term recovered people to base this on, except you and lo0p. From just immediate recollection I think you two are the only ones with a year or more. Oh, and Sunnyvalenting.

The three of you have such completely different experiences that it's astounding and impossible to base a course of action on.

I am definitely going to continue to take bac for a long, long time. It's an antidepressant, anti-anxiety for me. It works better, for me, than any AD I've tried. Is non-addictive, non-narcotic and safe. I couldn't ask for more from a medicine! And yet, it does the most important thing, it keeps me sober. It is the only thing, at all, that I can credit with the fact that I no longer drink against my will. That in itself is enough for me to take it forever.

Thanks for the thoughts. I look forward to more of them!

[Murphyx]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

If I?d been addressing this question a few weeks ago, my answer would have been: I drink occasionally because I want to and I don?t drink to excess so baclofen has done the job for me. Now I?m not so sure.

I was always aware that I had a post switch habit I couldn?t break; the one drink when cooking in the evening. No big deal in and of itself, but wasn?t allowing myself to have just one a short step from allowing myself to have a gallon?

Now I?ve broken that habit, I haven?t sipped a drink for 10 days and not only do I not want a drink, I am actually disgusted by the very idea of drinking. I think I may have felt this way previously but was subconsciously dismissing it because I had to justify to myself the one a day habit. I?m not committing to a life of abstinence. If the situation arises I won?t try to stop myself drinking, but at this moment I really can?t imagine ever being in that situation again.

I?m committed to taking HDB for the longrun, but eventually I want to go to LDB (100mg or less) or get off it entirely. For me, taking gobfulls of bac just so I can have one drink in the evening really isn?t worth it. But using bac merely as a means of reducing cravings is also a no-no. If you?re on low dose bac and craving alcohol, bac isn?t working. It?s helping, but it?s not being as effective as it could. I would go as far as to say that if you never actually reached much higher than the LDB level and just reached a point where you were sufficiently in control of your cravings, you never actually switched and therefore abstinence is the only option for you. Moderation simply wouldn?t be possible.

Ne/Neva Eva;1123361 wrote: I come back, again and again, to the fact that it's not the bac. It's the default habit.

Absolutely. Bac will only take you so far. It's the habit that needs addressing after the switch.

[gratitude]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

"I'd like to focus on what it means, for us, to be indifferent to alcohol. The decisions and thoughts we have post-indifference about drinking. How it affects our decision to take baclofen and how much and for how long. I am also interested in the idea of staying at a low dose in order to curtail one's alcoholic drinking." NE

ah, what a great thread. and all the star pupils are here,too.
I don't post much anymore because I don't take BAC at the moment and don't feel I have much to contribute. I do lurk everyday and cheerlead when I can.
I've been sober for 4 years and have mostly lost the old habits. the tinkling of ice in a highball glass doesn't send me over the edge any longer. that being said I am not indifferent by any means.
alcohol was a social lubricant for me like so many on here. it was a solution for me. for a long while. until...well, you guys know the rest of the story. got to the point of not being able to look myself in the eye in the morning mirror. alcohol didn't make me funnier, or smarter, or more outgoing but it did allow me to express these qualities and join the group. now I have to take the much harder path (but also more gratifying) of actually taking risks without alcohol. the problem is that I am not indifferent. I can will myself not to drink. or I can run, cycle, read, go to MWO, etc to distract myself. but... there is this girl. and that is my biggest trigger.
BAC to BAC. seems I can't live with it can't live without it. I haven't tried it because I'm
afraid it will give me an excuse to drink. and it might. what I would reall like is to be truly indifferent. like some of you have described. I don't think about alcohol at all. I can go on a date, or celebrate after a particularly hard run, or go to a BBQ, without obsessing on the
beer in your hand. and believe me I still obsess on the drink in your hand. are you going to finish that? how come you're not drinking all of it right now?is there more at the bar?
for all you successful BACer's out there... is this possible?
if you were never a problem drinker but were consuming the amount you are now would you consider it a problem.
great thread ne.

[Guest]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

gratitude;1123593 wrote: "I'd like to focus on what it means, for us, to be indifferent to alcohol. The decisions and thoughts we have post-indifference about drinking. How it affects our decision to take baclofen and how much and for how long. I am also interested in the idea of staying at a low dose in order to curtail one's alcoholic drinking." NE

ah, what a great thread. and all the star pupils are here,too.
I don't post much anymore because I don't take BAC at the moment and don't feel I have much to contribute. I do lurk everyday and cheerlead when I can.
I've been sober for 4 years and have mostly lost the old habits. the tinkling of ice in a highball glass doesn't send me over the edge any longer. that being said I am not indifferent by any means.
alcohol was a social lubricant for me like so many on here. it was a solution for me. for a long while. until...well, you guys know the rest of the story. got to the point of not being able to look myself in the eye in the morning mirror. alcohol didn't make me funnier, or smarter, or more outgoing but it did allow me to express these qualities and join the group. now I have to take the much harder path (but also more gratifying) of actually taking risks without alcohol. the problem is that I am not indifferent. I can will myself not to drink. or I can run, cycle, read, go to MWO, etc to distract myself. but... there is this girl. and that is my biggest trigger.
BAC to BAC. seems I can't live with it can't live without it. I haven't tried it because I'm
afraid it will give me an excuse to drink. and it might. what I would reall like is to be truly indifferent. like some of you have described. I don't think about alcohol at all. I can go on a date, or celebrate after a particularly hard run, or go to a BBQ, without obsessing on the
beer in your hand. and believe me I still obsess on the drink in your hand. are you going to finish that? how come you're not drinking all of it right now?is there more at the bar?
for all you successful BACer's out there... is this possible?
if you were never a problem drinker but were consuming the amount you are now would you consider it a problem.
great thread ne.

Good post. Whilst I can't currently get blasted with AL - the nal prevents this, and so am moderating I do still look forward to having a drink at the end of the day, with the occasional daytime drinking thought (all the whilst knowing it'll come to nothing much).

Wondered if baccer's do the same and normal drinkers?