Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

Thank you so much for your thoughts, Gratitude.
I'm going to respond right now, but also reserve the right to revisit this in the future, as it's much food for thought.

gratitude;1123593 wrote:
...
I still obsess on the drink in your hand. are you going to finish that? how come you're not drinking all of it right now?is there more at the bar?
That is so far removed from me that I had completely forgotten about it. It NEVER crossed my mind that I could be that way again. It never crossed my mind that I felt that way. I have no lust for and no obsession with alcohol, at all. None.

gratitude;1123593 wrote: I don't think about alcohol at all. I can go on a date, or celebrate after a particularly hard run, or go to a BBQ, without obsessing on the
beer in your hand. For all you successful BACer's out there... is this possible?
if you were never a problem drinker but were consuming the amount you are now would you consider it a problem.

I suppose that is exactly what's possible, Grat. Exactly that. The obsession is gone.

Emphatically no. I would not, nor would anyone else anywhere, consider the amount of alcohol that I drink a problem. I drink less than social drinkers. In the last 7 days I have consumed 1 glass of wine (7oz) and maybe, maybe, 4 beers. Probably not. Probably more like 2. I open them, and give them to my husband. Or leave them somewhere and find them MUCH later. But I might have opened 4 beers. This is effortless.

Thank you for allowing me to put my drinking into perspective. I am eternally grateful to you for that.

Bac rocks.

[Nelz]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

Man, if they made a pill to make me indifferent to AL I would beg, borrow, or steal it! So far Ive used will power alone, but I hate it when my alky brain starts to taunt me

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

Nelz;1123606 wrote: Man, if they made a pill to make me indifferent to AL

um, nelz, luv, they do. I think that's the point. No begging, borrowing or stealing required. unless you live in most of the world. But we've found ways around that. :H

Congratulations on your 30 days. I'm impressed!

[help4me]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

Hello everyone. It's nice to still see lots of you posting. Thanks for this thread NE. I'm still on 200 mg. of baclofen a day. I have chosen to drink on and off (mostly off). The best thing for me about the BAC is that it gives me the confidence to know I can have a drink or two and stop.

Before BAC, I knew if I had a drink or two out with friends, I better have a stash back home to continue on until I passed out. Now, if I do choose to have a couple drinks I know with confidence, that I can stop. This is not to say, I haven't had a couple nights that I've chosen to drink to oblivion at home. This I am trying to work on with the tool box thread on here... It's different though now with the BAC. I have the ability to say NO thanks. I know it is a choice. The AL is not controlling me anymore. I can control it. Does that make sense?

My thing now is trying to figure out why I choose to drink the times I have. It's deeper than anything and I must figure it out. I love the feeling of control that BAC gives me, so now I just need to figure out the why's so I can truly kick this forever.

Thanks for listening and best wishes to all.

[bleep]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

This is an interesting thread.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is a changing attitude to alcohol. When I went into baclofen, it was with moderation in mind. The thought of a life without booze seemed hollow and empty. I think a big part of indifference is a different perception of alcohol though - I no longer see it as fundamental to my existence, and a necessary part of having fun. I can imagine a life without alcohol quite easily now.

I think that in time, once this new attitude has sunk in, I'll start drinking less and less. I read back over my initial post in this thread, and it sounds like there is a lot of boozing going on. Drinking at the level described there, I probably get through about a bottle of wine in a week, so it's not a consumption that alarms me.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

I find that my thoughts about abstinence vs. moderation, in this whole new world of indifference, vary a great deal on any given day. I'd like to continue to explore it, if others are interested.

[Murphy, would you mind bringing your post about indifference over here? It's full of great thoughts and I'd like to respond. (You could start a new thread too, I'm not attached to this one! Just feels like that post fits in here with the other thoughts already expressed.)]

[missyabby1]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

What the ???

I have never posted on this thread. I believe that people can take other people's posts and move them ?? That would be damn contrary to this whole forum. Lets move this comment to somewhere the poster didn't want to post? Sheesh that is just not on!!

Good one on the tortoise Ne, it was sent to me in the spirit that if I wasn't on bac, then I was a tortoise (not the hare, obviously!). You know what really got me about this whole meds thread, is that I used to post absolutely off my face, abusive, angry and totally pissed. I used to get up in the morning thinking, stupid me, that someone would recognise how much in pain, out of control I was on the booze, and reach out a hand, you know how they do in AA.........take you aside, give you a hug, a cup of tea, and KNOW what it is to help. Not a cracker. Just more ignoring, abuse and self interest. I don't think this site is more then a self advertisement for Baclofen. End of story. And so it should be, this is a medication that could help many of us............ and it needs to be put out there.........in a big way. However, I think I remember posting somewhere earlier that it was becoming an AA mantra....take this , believe this, this is the way to go or you are not living the dream. Absolutes are never, ever going to cut it, for many people. It is always going to be an option. Alcoholics are reknowned for being obstinate.

Anyway, just popped on here to see how people were doing, and was really disturbed to see a post of mine (usually off the planet, but not this time!) on a thread I didn't post on.

Please, whoever , did that..........don't do it again.......it is not something I would dream of doing. Despite that I wouldn't have a clue how to do it anyway

Wishing you all a happy and sober life, its great!

Missy xx

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

I hope we can stay on topic, here, folks.

Peace out.
ne

[Murphyx]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

This is the post Ne was referring to. I wrote it for my diary thread and the style reflects this. I have removed the obligatory knob-joke.

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What a great day I had yesterday; we spent the morning on the meads with the dogs. We had a picnic in the sun and we all played around in the river and laughed and had huge fun. It was the sort of day one remembers having as a child, but suspects memory of playing tricks and exaggerating what was in actual fact probably pretty mundane. It was 30c, not a cloud in sight, low humidity and a light breeze; absolutely perfect. Perfect weather and a perfect morning. I?m having a lot of them lately. I?m eating good food, exercising and losing fat; I haven?t been so healthy, fit and lean for years. The bac-fog has lifted (thanks to piracetam) and I?ve had a chance to get a grip on my financial and business worries. Life is good. And the best thing, the thing that makes this all so much better than it would otherwise be, is the fact I don?t have to worry about alcohol anymore. Indifference. Not indifference to alcohol, but indifference to worrying about alcohol. Not the switch, I don?t think that ever happened to me. No, that?s not true; it happened. In fact, it happened more than once.

I first switched on 04 Feb 2011 at a dose of 150; I lost the desire to drink vast quantities of alcohol. But I still drank most evenings; only 1 drink, sometimes only a sip, but sometimes, not often, a little more. I worried about this. My God my drinking was reduced, to within the limits prescribed by the health authorities, probably for the first time in my adult life. But I wasn?t in control. I didn?t decide to have that evening drink, the decision was out of my hands. The baclofen switch means you?re in control of the booze, not the other way round?right? So, I panicked; I upped the dose in search of true indifference. Take more bac, that?s the answer. It always is.

On 175 I felt another, temporary, relief from craving, but I still wanted to drink. Less, much, much less than pre-baclofen, oh man, no comparison; but the urge was still there. I could have fought the urge, I?m sure. It would be difficult, but the urge was minimal compared to the old days, the bad days, when evil Murph was in charge. But fighting urges has never been a strong point of mine. And anyway, I wouldn?t need to because the baclofen switch makes that a moot point. Once you switch you don?t need to fight urges; there are no more urges, no desire for alcohol. Indifference means you can take it or leave it. You don?t feel compelled, there is no force, nothing that overrides your better judgement. So onwards and upwards; let?s get to that switch, the real switch, the one we all aim for. Take more bac.

Over the next few months I played around with my dose to see what worked. Could I find a level that made me truly indifferent? I experimented with dosing patterns: different amounts in each dose, alternative periods between doses, even the big one hit per day dose. Nothing changed; I still wanted to drink. Not a lot, I didn?t want to get pissed every day, but nor was I indifferent. And I should have been.

So, we all know the answer don?t we? When you?re having problems, whether they are side effects or a wobble in your feelings about booze, all you need do is take more bac. So five weeks ago I upped the dose to 225. And holy fuuuuuuck, that was one hell of a ride. I was out of it. Man, but I was tripping. The surge of positive emotions was unlike anything I had previously experienced. I was utterly overwhelmed by a sudden love of ?well?everything: every person and every object, all actions and all activities, each sight, sound, smell, taste and touch, they overpowered me with an all-encompassing deluge of pure, basic, beautiful love. And clarity. I understood everything: what had gone wrong in the past and why, how to improve my present, and I had a clear vision of the future; I knew exactly what I was to do and how to go about it. This lasted a day, before I started to come down from the high. Over the next few days it wore off and Newton?s third law of motion jumped up and bitch-slapped me. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Apparently that applies to emotions as well as motion. I ended up in the deepest of depressions. So close to the edge. I hadn?t really given suicide any serious thought for a long time, not since I was a teenager, but 4 weeks ago I was planning an alternative and final My Way Out. Only the realisation that it was a chemical reaction that would surely pass, allowed me to keep it together. But the amazing thing is, I didn?t turn to the bottle, even then, even in that deepest of pits I didn?t consider drink as a solution. I considered suicide, but not drink. Lol, how fucked up is that? And thank God I didn?t drink, perhaps if I had I wouldn?t have been able to rationalise the whole thing. No, not God, thank baclofen.

I didn?t drink at all from the day the 225 hit me. I was sober and effortlessly so for 3 weeks. Then the cravings started to return, but I held out. I wanted to make sure I made it to the 30 day mark. I don?t know why, but people seem to think it?s some sort of important milestone. So I stuck it out. I tried to convince myself I was using only the merest touch of willpower to keep from drinking, but in actual fact I was white-knuckling it. When the 30 days were up I couldn?t hold back any longer; I had a drink and it was good and so I had another etc etc. And the same the next day and the one after. OK, that switch didn?t last so I have to take more bac. More bac always works, it?s always the answer. Baclofen makes us all indifferent, it?s just a matter of taking more until you get to that point.

Eventually I realised, the problem wasn?t the amount of baclofen, it was my attitude to it. I expected baclofen to take away my cravings, when in actual fact, all it was doing for me, all it ever could do for me, was reduce my desire for booze, just as it had 5 months ago at 150mg.

The switch doesn?t exist for me. And I think I know why. I don?t suffer from anxiety. I?m not anxious; I never have been, well not as an adult anyway. Except for a period long ago when I was an actor, when I was almost paralysed with fear and tension and loss of concentration and I would be shitting myself on a daily basis (figuratively speaking, not literally?well almost never literally), but once I walked out on to the stage or the set I was absolutely calm and in control. Apart from that time, I have never been even slightly anxious. I don?t worry about things irrationally. I?m not tense. I?m not easily startled. I?ve never had a panic attack. I?m not edgy or irritable, except when drunk. I?m not concerned about how others perceive me. I know that if I have to chat with someone, I can do so easily (although perhaps not when Skyping lol). I?m simply not anxious.

Baclofen is an anxiolytic. It relieves anxiety and panic and it relaxes muscles (another symptom of anxiety). THAT is how you achieve true indifference. THAT is how you switch. If you drink because of anxiety, baclofen can help you to 100% indifference. Anxiety seems to be such a common theme amongst us here. I?ve lost count of the number of times I?ve read people reporting relief of their anxiety, sometimes even though they didn?t previously even realise they were anxious. But if that?s not the reason you drink, then you won?t permanently switch. You won?t reach 100% indifference. And why I never will, no matter what dosage I go up to.

I suspect those who didn?t suffer from anxiety but who have achieved long-term abstinence, have employed a certain amount of willpower/white-knuckling in order to do so. But nowhere near as much as they would have needed without the assistance of baclofen. Baclofen helps reduce our cravings, even if it doesn?t eliminate them. It worked wonders for me at 150 mg. Many people have reported great results at much lower doses; in extreme cases, even from the very first pill.

Baclofen works, not just for the anxious, but for almost everyone.

Baclofen works, just not in the way we?d all like it to.

So now I can drop back down to 150 knowing that I will be able to keep my drinking to a low level and keep evil Murph at bay. That?s a hell of a result; much, much better than I could possibly have hoped for a year ago. I won?t go down just yet though because I?ve already upped my dose to 275 and I?m rather enjoying the feeling. I am familiar enough with baclofen to know what to expect and deal comfortably with any side effects. As it happens the side effects are all good and I might even add another 50 on top tomorrow?just for shitz and giggles.

Does Baclofen Work? YEAH BABY!!!

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Note: I didn't stay on 275 but instead dropped down to 175 the day I wrote the above. I've been there ever since and without any cravings.

[Godwhacker]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

I'm still on 280, going up to 300 in a couple of days. Think I'll stay clear of the booze for the time being, but part of that is no longer really seeing the difference between diet coke and beer... which is a feat in itself.

[hangingoninFL]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

I have been up to 350 per day, but never reached what I would consider indifference. I would still find myself in situations where I did desire a drink. But what I found is that one, maybe two drinks at the most is all I wanted. My previous habit of one drink leading to 15 was gone. I have since, due to both cost and SEs, titrated back down to around 175 per day, and have not noticed any increased desire to drink. I think for the forseeable future I will remain at 175. I did orginally hope to achieve that elusive indifference, which I guess I interpreted as complete sobriety, but I am more than happy to settle for what I believe is a normal person's relationship to alcohol.

[RudyB]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

yay, hanging on! good for you. nice to go down so much and still feel the good effects of the bac, not the unpleasant se's.

i've never been attached to drinking like a normal person, but i will certainly take it! i had a tiny glass of red wine w sis the other night. she must be mystified by it all, but after a very open conversation about my drinking, i now feel safe to do or say whatever with her. lovely.

i've been my version of indifferent for about a week, at 200 mg. i, too, am okay with a drink here and there. i still like the taste of ale and red wine (but i can't imagine having vodka ~ that shit is like lighter fluid ~ yuck).

this is good, folks! we are doing very well for ourselves.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

Murphyx;1140992 wrote:
I suspect those who didn’t suffer from anxiety but who have achieved long-term abstinence, have employed a certain amount of willpower/white-knuckling in order to do so. But nowhere near as much as they would have needed without the assistance of baclofen. Baclofen helps reduce our cravings, even if it doesn’t eliminate them. It worked wonders for me at 150 mg. Many people have reported great results at much lower doses; in extreme cases, even from the very first pill.

Thanks, Murphy.

I have never understood the term "switch" when it comes to baclofen in relation to drinking. I've heard it described many ways, and none of them indicated afterward that something dramatic and final had happened. A light switch is off when it's off. If that were the case with what happens in the brain on baclofen...Well, I've never experienced it and never heard of anyone who has in a way that made that experience clear.

Indifference is a completely different animal.
Indifference: Lack of interest, concern or sympathy.
That was, and is, my goal. It means, for me, that I no longer make decisions based on the need for alcohol. I can watch others enjoy it and not long for it. I can walk by the wine section and not even think about it.
I have had these experiences time and again since February 4th when I decided to stop drinking, on 340mg of baclofen.
I have little interest in alcohol. Almost none, though it defined my life for a quarter of a century.

I am unconcerned about alcohol, despite the fact that it is amply available in my home because my husband is still drinking against his will.

The only sympathy I can garner is the feeling I have for people who are still drinking against their will. Or, and just as profound, the ones who are completely consumed with their inability to drink.

The concerns I have are the age old ones, the ones that stem from years and years of training that alcohol is evil, to drink is to die. I can't imagine that this feeling, being indifferent, will last. For a while I agonized over each thought of alcohol. Is that a craving? Is it returning? Is it all for naught?

I have felt craving since indifference. Not in the form of wanting a glass of wine when others are drinking, though I've had that experience too. I've had the chemical-imbalance-reaction happen. All of the occasions when this happened were ~28 days apart, at the beginning of my menses. Every last one of them. Four times in four months. Three of those times I drank, and got drunk, and enjoyed it. (Except the first one. That was harrowing. ugh.)
All of the other times I've had an alcoholic beverage I've wanted one to be social or because it seemed like a nice idea. They are few and far between. 30 days of abstinence was absolutely effortless until my hormones changed.

I think it's pretty fair to say that I am indifferent. On a scale of 1-10, I'd give my indifference an 8. If I stopped stressing about drinking vs. not drinking I think it would be a solid 9.

Anxiety is not a separate issue from indifference. I was one of the ones who did not know that I suffered from anxiety. This, even after years and years of therapy, some of which was with the best shrinks on the east coast (U.S.) My mom is a psychologist. I am very familiar with introspection, CBT, and most other forms of therapeutic thought-alteration. Didn't work and I've never been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder.

I didn't know because I thought I was simply eccentric, and skittish, and flighty. I assumed that everyone wakes their husband in the middle of the night in order to make sure he's breathing. Or plans for emergencies in relation to walking the dog around the neighborhood. It turns out that my default reflex is akin to an Afghani! :H Always with the adrenaline rush, the flight-or-fight reaction, whether it's a house spider or a neighbor's golden retriever.

The ramifications of this are so overwhelming, so pervasive and so elusive that I had no idea how much it colored every aspect of my life. Until it was simply gone. I don't know that it was a switch, I think it might have been gradual. But I suspect it is this thing, or the absence of it, that keeps me indifferent to alcohol.

The dangerous thing about anxiety is that it is completely subjective. If someone had asked me if I were an anxious person a year ago I would have been shocked! Most of those who know me would say that I'm pretty laid back, a go-with-the-flow kind of person. Those who know me intimately know that I am the antithesis of that.

Indifference is fluid, almost by definition. Anxiety is underrated. Baclofen works.

Finally, (I know!) Many of you know that I keep in touch with people via email and phone. Some of these are not members here. Almost all of the people that I've spoken to or researched here on the boards drink again, post-indifference. They are content with the decision, much like HangingoninFL.
The ones that don't are absolutely committed to a life of abstinence.
The ones I've spoken to, or researched, who go off of baclofen, with only two exceptions, drink again against their will. Chaos reemerges. One is Sunnyvalenting. The other is PhoenixRising. Hers is a fascinating story that I'll share if she says it's okay.

It is too soon to say what the long term ramifications of drinking on HDB are going to be.
It is readily apparent what result long term abstinence offers.

I'm still ambivalent about which path I'll follow. I feel as though my agonizing over a drink is more of an issue than my drinking it (singular!)

I have ultimate faith, still, that baclofen can and will quiet any overwhelming urge to drink back into chaos. Almost immediately. No higher power, no daily moral inventory, and most importantly, no shame or humiliation needed. A simple little generic pill, taken reasonably, sustainably and with my eyes clear about the goal.

Because baclofen works. For just about everyone.

Cheers to that, and hoorah!

[turboscottomatic]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

Switch

DISCLOSURE: I have not achieved indifference, but something is changing....

Ne/Neva Eva;1141395 wrote:

I have never understood the term "switch" when it comes to baclofen in relation to drinking. I've heard it described many ways, and none of them indicated afterward that something dramatic and final had happened. A light switch is off when it's off. If that were the case with what happens in the brain on baclofen...Well, I've never experienced it and never heard of anyone who has in a way that made that experience clear.

It seems like it is occurring for me, but it is more a process than an 'event.' Maybe instead of a light switch it is more of a dimmer (for me). All I know is that I am at 165/day and I am drinking every day, but about 1/3 as much as before starting bac. So, instead of a steady 1/2 quart of vodka every single day, I am drinking about 2-3 belgian beers most days. A big, big difference.

I feel much better, I feel much clearer, I have some side effects but they are manageable, and I am glad for the change. I don't know if I will ever experience a "switch" that feels like an event, but I don't care. I am slowly decreasing my alcohol intake and slowly improving my life by doing so. I'll take it!

:thanks: to all of the wisdom and helpfulness - spewers on this board.

T

[turboscottomatic]

Abstinence, Moderation and Indifference

Broccoli

It may sound stoopid, but the analogy that comes into my head about 'indifference' is broccoli. I keep revisiting the idea in my head. Broccoli. Re: abstinence, moderation and indifference, I would like to feel the same about alcohol as I do about broccoli.



I don't go into a panic if I don't have broccoli in the house.

I don't consider a dinner a bad dinner because there was no broccoli at the end.

I don't wake up in the morning regretting something I did last night from eating too much broccoli.

I don't try to hide my broccoli consumption from other people.

I don't worry that my life will be sadder and shorter because I eat broccoli every day.

And finally, I don't worry that people will stop loving me because I am a hopeless brocoholic.



I hope that one day I can feel that maybe I'll go out with friends and have a drink because we are having dinner and a nice glass of wine would go well. And then effortlessly stop there. Then not have another for a month or two or six, just because. I guess that makes me a hopeful moderator. But if total abstinence is what is best for me or where I end up most comfortably, I'll take that too. Like broccoli. If I never have another bite of broccoli in my life, I'll be okay. Though, I can't lie: I'll kind of miss it. I like broccoli.


I don't know what it feels like to be a normal person. I haven't spent a day of my life as a normal person. But I think this is how normal people feel about alcohol. I'd like to feel that way too.

T