Indifference

[Guest]

Indifference

Theodore;1127652 wrote: No, I can't Murph. And to be honest I don't have any real understanding of medical law. I only have Chick's word for it. I really think it highly unlikely that he would lie directly to me or anyone else, but more evidence would be good, and I'm sure it could be found easily enough. In any case, I would say to, what I said to Ne (more or less). Your good humour, straight talking, and formidable intelligence have been an inspiration to many, not least myself. Keep up the good work

I don't think it's illegal per se, but the maximum dose Drs can prescribe in this country is 100mg (that's what he told me). I assume this is as per BMA guidelines and that if he prescribed over this, then he would be answerable. He probably doesn't want to have to do any explaining, or risk getting into trouble. Since he is a leading expert, doing important work in this area I'd say it is important he does stay on the right side of guidelines - to be hindered by an enquiry probably would not help any progress.

Dr Chick did recognise my SEs and indeed referred to them in his letter to my GP. He basically considers that I am intolerant to Baclofen, since I stayed at 180 for at least 3-4 weeks during which time I mostly did not touch alcohol (had 3 weeks continuous (enforced)abstenance in that time), yet my SEs were still awful and did not abate. He told me that was one indicator, that baclofen wasn't suitable for me. Combine this with this opinion that I do not have an underlying anxiety disorder, he told me it probably was not going to work for me full stop.

[Theodore]

Indifference

Uk- Blonde- 'you do not have an anxiety disorder'- would you agree? If so that is very, very interesting, and fits neatly with my ideas about why Bac does not work for all. Thanks.

[Theodore]

Indifference

It's also a another example of Chick's good sense.

[Theodore]

Indifference

Is it Naxetrone you are taking now? How you doing with that?

[Guest]

Indifference

Theodore;1127924 wrote: Is it Naxetrone you are taking now? How you doing with that?

Yes I have been using Naltrexone for over 7 weeks now, I have posted my progress in the "Naltrexone Works!" thread. It appears I have taken to Naltrexone exceptionally well, I've also noticed my binge/comfort eating has disappeared. Sure I'm a worrier and I have on occasion lapsed into daily drinking-dependency, however I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that my addictive behaviours are endorphin driven.

By the way how would you define, or diagnose an anxiety disorder?

[Theodore]

Indifference

Ok- that is absolutely fasinating, and again fits with my ideas. There are different kinds of anxiety disorders- ranging in severity from Generalised anxiety disorder to panic disorder. All are, I believe, characterised by massive muscular tension, which is relived by alcohol, and baclofen, by virtue of their effect on the gaba system. But in some people, like you, I reckon that, as you say, addiction is driven by an absense/ineffectivity of endorphins, and not by muscualr tension. But that is just the tip of the iceberg.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Indifference

Theodore;1127927 wrote: There are different kinds of anxiety disorders- ranging in severity from Generalised anxiety disorder to panic disorder. All are, I believe, characterised by massive muscular tension, which is relived by alcohol, and baclofen, by virtue of their effect on the gaba system.
...
But that is just the tip of the iceberg.

I think I might (maybe) agree with part of what you said. :H

:goodjob:

But tread carefully, will you? For instance, I have an emotional response when people start talking about the fact that something works and something doesn't and trying to figure that out specifically in theoretical terms.
The reason for this is because we simply can't know. Conjecture is fine, of course, and this place should and is a safe place to discuss all things bac-related. BUT, when you start including specifics it may affect how one person, even just one person, feels about their own progress/chances. And you can't know how profoundly your words, however well intentioned they are, affect the people reading them. It may, in fact, contribute to their deep seated anxiety. Right? And then what? It exacerbates what you are suggesting may be an indicator for success. Right? Or am I completely off base?

Ftr, I didn't have anything muscle related, as far as I can tell, pre- or post-bac. But I'll think further on that, and get bac to you.

Finally, if you open up the can of worms that delves into comparing one medicine to another and definitions of success you are going to open a shit-storm of unpredictable consequences. just sayin.

All that said, I'm actually really looking forward to hearing more about your ideas. Once again, nice job, Ted.

[Theodore]

Indifference

There is a lot I could say in response to that, and again, I largelly agree- ''if you open up the can of worms that delves into comparing one medicine to another and definitions of success you are going to open a shit-storm of unpredictable consequences''- right- that's why we have to deal with different specialists on their own terms and avoid contaminating western sceince with Eastern medicine...at this point.

''I have an emotional response when people start talking about the fact that something works and something doesn't and trying to figure that out specifically in theoretical terms.
The reason for this is because we simply can't know.''- Oh but we can Ne, we can- trust me on that

[bleep]

Indifference

Theodore;1127922 wrote: ...
If so that is very, very interesting, and fits neatly with my ideas about why Bac does not work for all. Thanks.

Theodore;1127927 wrote: Ok- that is absolutely fasinating, and again fits with my ideas.

...

Theodore;1127933 wrote: There is a lot I could say in response to that,
...
Oh but we can Ne, we can- trust me on that

Okay Ted. There's more I could quote but it's on other pages. It's time to either share this theory or stop referencing it. We are all eager to hear it, I think let the research scientists worry about their patents, and reveal it.

[Guest]

Indifference

One issue I had was that everyone was telling me that baclofen worked, no doubt about and to just get on with it. When I struggled and wasn't quite sure it was my way out, still I was being told the same. This actually caused me a lot of distress, and it all became a struggle I'm the sort of person who does seek approval you see. In the end I had to just take a deep breath and strike out on my own. I had to ignore those telling me to just carry on taking the pills and take a chance. I then felt a failure, outcast even because I'd quit baclofen. I still do sometimes. Luckily however I appear to have found my answer for the time being, all the results from Nal so far indicate I am one of those individuals for whom it's endorphins that are the key. It fits with so many things in my life, including the fact that if I don't exercise I become a very grumply, unhappy, miserable person. I can however see times when baclofen would have helped me at say a different point in my alcoholism - such as the periods when I was drinking daily and could not face the day without alcohol inside me, that fear was awful and luckily I did not have to face it for very long.

I'd just like to see the full range of options presented to people, without having to slate one or the other, without making people feel excluded if they don't go a certain way. Addiction and alcoholism are not straightforward illnesses and the answers are not going to be simple either.

[Theodore]

Indifference

''all the results from Nal so far indicate I am one of those individuals for whom it's endorphins that are the key''- does Nal work with endorphins?

''I had to ignore those telling me to just carry on taking the pills and take a chance. I then felt a failure, outcast even because I'd quit baclofen''- yea- I think that's been one of the problems with the bac movement- and it hasn't helped us gain a more complete understanding to. I think it was a brave decision, on your part, and on Dr Chick's, to discontiue the medication.

Point taken bleep. The constant references must be pretty annoying. And I'm not trying to be a wanker, but, I just have to trust my instinct and say that it would not be a good idea to discuss all my ideas on here, at this point. It won't be long. I'll leave it at that.

[Guest]

Indifference

Theodore;1127944 wrote: ''all the results from Nal so far indicate I am one of those individuals for whom it's endorphins that are the key''- does Nal work with endorphins?

''I had to ignore those telling me to just carry on taking the pills and take a chance. I then felt a failure, outcast even because I'd quit baclofen''- yea- I think that's been one of the problems with the bac movement- and it hasn't helped us gain a more complete understanding to. I think it was a brave decision, on your part, and on Dr Chick's, to discontiue the medication.

Point taken bleep. The constant references must be pretty annoying. And I'm not trying to be a wanker, but, I just have to trust my instinct and say that it would not be a good idea to discuss all my ideas on here, at this point. It won't be long. I'll leave it at that.

Theodore

That is how Naltrexone works - it blocks the endorphins released when alcohol is drunk. Endorphins positively reinforce addictive behaviours and are released during behaviours such as eating(especially chocolate!), exercising and sex.

[Murphyx]

Indifference

Does it also block the endorphins released during sex?

[Guest]

Indifference

Murphyx;1127982 wrote: Does it also block the endorphins released during sex?

In theory it should block all endorphins I think, but you only take it when you drink, so you could be selective.

So far I've only found that the reaction to [junk] food and alcohol have been affected, but not sex or exercise. I still feel good after both.

[bleep]

Indifference

Ukblonde;1128000 wrote: ...
So far I've only found that the reaction to [junk] food and alcohol have been affected, but not sex or exercise. I still feel good after both.

I can only imagine the sad and unhappy mess of a life you could find yourself in if you accidentally mistimed all your naltrexone doses!