Baclofen and Anxiety

[Cassander]

Baclofen and Anxiety

gratitude;1169919 wrote: what is going on in Cass's world of researching anxiety and BAC? grat.

Hi Grat

Nothing new or earth shaking. I'm still on the lookout for more anecdotal evidence that long term anxiety and increasing alcohol abuse are often linked and that baclofen can relieve both cravings and the underlying anxiety. There doesn't seem to be much question to me that this is true, but the more evidence we can accumulate, the better, I think.

Thanks for asking!

Cassander

[Cassander]

Baclofen and Anxiety

Bump for the weekend.

Newbies and lurkers: Take a look at the stories posted by members here and see if there is some resonance. See if you can see your story in theirs. There might be some help for you here.

Longtimers: If you have anything new or more or different to add to the subject of anxiety/baclofen/alcoholism, please fire away.

Cassander

[Guest]

Baclofen and Anxiety

Cassander;1175690 wrote: Hi Grat

Nothing new or earth shaking. I'm still on the lookout for more anecdotal evidence that long term anxiety and increasing alcohol abuse are often linked and that baclofen can relieve both cravings and the underlying anxiety. There doesn't seem to be much question to me that this is true, but the more evidence we can accumulate, the better, I think.

Thanks for asking!

Cassander

I was taught that anxiety is increased by alcohol intake, have listened to a couple of lectures on this where it was explained that as you drink more the nerve endings responsible for addicition/stress multiply. Remove the alcohol sedative -either as you sober up or inbetween binges and you become highly strung or anxious. I know a couple of days after a binge I'd be jumping at everything/everyone in sight as well worrying myself silly, having panic attacks that sort of thing. Now my drinking has subsided I am more constant and do worry less, or if I do have an anxious day I'm usually ok 24 hours later instead of escalating further.

So I suppose like with depression, there could be chicken and egg here. Has the anxiety come before drinking, increased with drinking or partly as a result of it?Does baclofen take it all away, or simply balances off the level you have gotten to?

Sorry if this doesn't seem very scientific, it's me trying to put into words my thoughts and ideas!

[Bruunhilde]

Baclofen and Anxiety

UK, I'm with you on that post all the way.

I've had an incredibly anxious week, or couple of weeks, or has it been a month? All I know is alcohol or not, I'm unmanageably crazed, panicked, etc. 40-50mg baclofen plus gabapentin 600mg/day is not doing the trick for me anymore.

[Guest]

Baclofen and Anxiety

Bruunhilde;1178326 wrote: UK, I'm with you on that post all the way.

I've had an incredibly anxious week, or couple of weeks, or has it been a month? All I know is alcohol or not, I'm unmanageably crazed, panicked, etc. 40-50mg baclofen plus gabapentin 600mg/day is not doing the trick for me anymore.

Ta I know I don't read many scientific papers, or books about this. I only know about myself and others I know, plus the odd lecture I've attended given by psychotherapists and addiction experts. The explaination about the nerve endings/receptors or whatever they are made a lot of sense to me, especially in relation to my drinking. Also know I was highly stressed just quitting on willpower, Nal for some reason has helped with this. Or perhaps the Baclofen I did take did something. I don't know, I just know alcohol doesn't make anxiety any better!

[Bruunhilde]

Baclofen and Anxiety

I agree, it makes it much worse over time.

[Eve Gatha]

Baclofen and Anxiety

I agree with my fellow Lioness and Blonde that alcohol can definitely increase one's anxiety... in my case, both shortly after over-indulging, and longer term anxiety due to drinking. However, despite developing major coping skills through the years I have still relied on alcohol to achieve temporary reprieves from my non-alcohol chronic anxiety on a regular basis. So, alcohol works both ways for me with anxiety; it's a double-edged sword. If I don't stop living by this sword, it's sure to kill me.

On a lighter note, I've been taking bac for 13 days, and with barely any effort have been AF since my first day!! This has happened for a few days at times, like on meditation retreats or something, but not this long in 14 years.. since my daughter was born!! And, aside from almost no cravings, my chronic background anxiety has been seriously dissolving since the first dose, as well!! This is insanely wonderous for me.

I'm working with Dr. L. Wanted to share my optimism :thanks: :new:

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Baclofen and Anxiety

Hiya, Eve, and :welcome: and woohoooo!

Cass, there is something about this anxiety thing that I've been ruminating on. (There is still a ton of thoughtful stuff that I'd love to respond to on here, but now is not the time nor the place.)

Anxiety is too broad a category for what is being referred to. The word has connotations that aren't really in line with my experience concerning a fundamental, inexplicable fear/nervousness I've had my whole life. In an effort to be clear, I'll explain a bit more.

I am an optimistic person. Prior to this baclofen journey I would not have said that I'm particularly nervous or anxious. I like change, embrace new adventures, and thought of my irrational fears as quirks. As an example, I was very easily startled and always have been. I often 'jumped out of my skin', enough so that family and close friends know to make some noise when they approach me if I'm not looking. I've also always had the 'what if' scenarios running mad-hatter in my head. I think this is not that abnormal, but I'm not sure. The thing that made them debilitating is how pervasive they were. I wasn't able to weigh them in terms of rational thought. So, yes, it is possible that my dog could be attacked by a rabid, vicious dog while on our morning walk, but the chances are pretty slim considering where I live. And the fact that I know that rabies does not actually exist in my part of the country.

My fear of spiders was the first thing I noticed, I think. No one likes spiders. I get that. Many people are irrationally scared of them. But I was SCARED to the point of being incapacitated. And I was scared to kill them, too. I read a story once, about a man who was visited by the descendants of all of the spiders he'd killed in Vietnam. Or something. Whatever it was, it was enough to add a whole 'nother dimension to my fear. That's been removed. It's just gone. Now I kill spiders, or leave them alone, or move them to a more hospitable place.
Last weekend during a visit to the countryside I startled a snake in the brush. I jumped, it slithered, then I started back up the hill again. There was something I wanted to see at the top. My mother was shocked to the point of incredulity. Really. It concerned me and I asked her if she thought the snake was going to come back or something. In other words, I wondered if she had information I didn't have. She said no and I got to the top without further ado.

The list of things that I was mortally frightened of was very, very long. And yet I've travelled alone internationally. I've jumped out of a plane and been rock climbing under treacherous circumstances. I've camped in remote places in really, really bad weather and done a lot of other really exciting and adventurous things. This anxiety to which I'm referring, the one that I don't feel any more, is related much more to something base than a lack of bravery or confidence. I hope I'm being clear...

It is unrelated in some ways to the anxiety I felt or still feel about life things. My exams still make me ridiculously nervous. I threw a party last night and wished I could find solace in a glass of wine (one glass) before the guests showed up. I would have, but everyone still thinks you have to be completely sober in order to be okay, so I didn't. Point is, there are a lot of things to feel anxious about, and excessive alcohol exacerbated every one of those, and even exacerbated the underlying anxiety. But I don't think it caused it. I think it's been there since I was a child. In fact, I know a child like me. His mother says he was anxious in the womb! Knowing him has helped clarify, for me, what it means to have anxiety. As an underlying, life defining condition, not as a situational reaction to stress.

Thanks again, Cass. Hope your family is doing well.

[missyabby1]

Baclofen and Anxiety

Anxiety

Hey Cass and Ne,

Just had to reply to this post as it so stronly resonated. I have always been anxious (which I feel was definitely situational) . However my younger son (who has probs with drugs) seems to have been "born anxious". He was a totally anxious little baby, non stop crying .........as opposed to his elder brother....totally relaxed, calm etc (and still is!). The difference was palpable. My lifelong fear was of balloons bursting:H behind me. Always fearful of loud noises........still jump more then other people. My elder son seems to take after my late husband, calm to a point unbelievable. And then we have the next generation...my grandson, the calmest little boy.....goes off in his own little world quite often......and then my grandaughter...wound up like a yo yo AAhh the nature versus nurture is always going to perplex us me thinks..

Anyway sorry to just jump in but thought the anxiety thing was and is a strange fish!

Love to you both

Missy xx

[Cassander]

Baclofen and Anxiety

Hi Ne

Like so much of this subject matter, its not at all clear what's going on, is it?

Except you are clear. I think what you are describing is, perhaps, the difference between generalized anxiety and situational anxiety.

Like you, I have plenty of courage and curiosity. I'm not afraid to do stuff. I get anxious before an "exam" and the anxiety goes away once I'm into it or the exam is over. Situational anxiety comes and goes.

What is almost always there, though, for me, is an underlying feeling of tightness, of unease, sometimes of dread. I often notice it immediately upon waking and it hovers unless and until I can distract myself with work or play or contact with another human. Its very different than fearing a specific event.

For many years, I "sucked it up" and went to work, performing pretty well, but was never really able to relax...until cocktail hour. Then I would pour a drink down and get complete relief from that underlying anxiety. This of course led to several drinks and pretty much the end of my functional day.

In 2008 I quit drinking...cold turkey...yep, I'm one of those. I've had pretty good success with it, and rarely sense craving and have only occasionally given in...in each case under social and/or peer pressure. In each case, miraculously, it didn't trigger a relapse.

So I'm pretty happy in my abstinent state, but the persistent, underlying anxiety is still there. Not drinking doesn't seem to make it worse, but it doesn't go away.

Since 2008 I have seriously ramped up my exercise routine and I have discovered that aerobic exercise (running) kills this anxiety. Before and at the start of the run I'm uncomfortable, my mind is jumping around, I'm thinking of excuses not to run, and I'm using all my willpower just to change clothes and tie my running shoes up and get going.

Five minutes into the run, I start thinking, "I feel ok". Ten minutes into it, I cross some kind of line and I just feel great. Almost every time. My mind just clears. The underlying, generalized stress feeling disappears, and I feel great. For the rest of the run (I now often run 50 minutes to an hour or more), I feel not only "normal", but I start feeling organized and I start making plans (as opposed to avoiding organization or plans). By the end of the run I feel calm and relaxed, even where I have pushed myself hard aerobically.

I'm convinced that all of this is related to brain chemistry. What else could it be?

That's one of the reasons I'm so interested in baclofen. It seems to address the underlying "anxiety" (for lack of a better word) that so many of us feel.

When I read Dr Ameisen's book, I was struck by his observations about anxiety. When my son read it, he said, "I felt the same way." And he has had the same result (so far) from baclofen that Dr Ameisen had, and that so many MWO members have reported. The underlying, generalized anxiety disappears.

FWIW, I haven't started baclofen (yet). I am an old-fashioned, tough-minded "do it myself with willpower" sort of guy. But the evidence that baclofen works, not only to eliminate craving, but also this other underlying condition, grows and grows. Doesn't it?

Cassander

PS I am not just being patronizing (not in the slightest) when I say that you (and Dr A) are my heroes. I am very aware of the toll alcoholism takes on individuals, including those who come here. I think the support you give all of us on this journey is extraordinary. Thank you, Ne.


.

[Cassander]

Baclofen and Anxiety

missyabby1;1179510 wrote: Hey Cass and Ne,

Just had to reply to this post as it so stronly resonated. I have always been anxious (which I feel was definitely situational) . However my younger son (who has probs with drugs) seems to have been "born anxious". He was a totally anxious little baby, non stop crying .........as opposed to his elder brother....totally relaxed, calm etc (and still is!). The difference was palpable. My lifelong fear was of balloons bursting:H behind me. Always fearful of loud noises........still jump more then other people. My elder son seems to take after my late husband, calm to a point unbelievable. And then we have the next generation...my grandson, the calmest little boy.....goes off in his own little world quite often......and then my grandaughter...wound up like a yo yo AAhh the nature versus nurture is always going to perplex us me thinks..

Anyway sorry to just jump in but thought the anxiety thing was and is a strange fish!

Love to you both

Missy xx

Hi Missy

Yes! This is what I'm focussed on. Our youngest would also say he was "born anxious". I can't explain it any other way than by the chemistry of the brain. The fact that bac addresses this anxiety, however it does, by rebalancing GABA, or whatever, suggests to me that a cure is possible. If bac isn't exactly it, it seems just a matter of time until the right chemical rebalancing agent is discovered.

It doesn't surprise me much that the rehab community is silent or opposed to the apparent miracle of baclofen. There is a multi-million/billion dollar infrastructure based on the non-scientific, non-medical 12 step process and rehab professionals are not doctors or scientists.

The fact that the medical community and the pharmaceutical community are silent is far curiouser. I think the response of the medical community is reprehensible. Given the all-too-frequent tragic consequences of alcoholism and the enormous cost to individuals and society of alcoholism, the medical community's inaction is inexcusable.

We all know that the pharmaceutical community is motivated by patents and profits, so its inaction is perhaps understandable, if not excusable. One has to believe that there is alot of activity going on in the R&D departments of Big Pharma to find a patentable molecule that is more effective than baclofen (perhaps one with fewer side effects). But the fact that the multi-billion dollar pharma industry is not doing more to test baclofen and make it more available is also inexcusable, at least to my way of thinking.

Cassander

[Cassander]

Baclofen and Anxiety

Cassander;1178184 wrote: Bump for the weekend.

Newbies and lurkers: Take a look at the stories posted by members here and see if there is some resonance. See if you can see your story in theirs. There might be some help for you here.

Longtimers: If you have anything new or more or different to add to the subject of anxiety/baclofen/alcoholism, please fire away.

Cassander

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[Cassander]

Baclofen and Anxiety

Bump for Boosted!

Welcome!

[suneelca]

Baclofen and Anxiety

Thanks for this thread, and for this community.

Started Bac on Friday -- started on 20, now up to 60. Ride has been good so far and tracking with the storyline of your collective experiences. Was able to tell a complex story understandably on a conference call yesterday, which doesn't always happen. Balancing between daytime somnolence and nighttime sleeplessness, but that may be in part because my MD is transitioning me off lorazepam while I move up to the 250mg Bac dosage she has prescribed (without my asking her!).

It is gratifying to see. The only thing is that it hasn't had an impact on my drinking yet, but I can see my way to how that will begin to happen as the underlying anxiety continues to ebb. After having not succeeded with Naltrexone, I've had my skepticism, but many of your stories have helped convince me that this is doable.

One question relevant to how Baclofen has worked for you -- what has been the mix of effortlessness through anxiety reduction and willpower?

[gratitude]

Baclofen and Anxiety

suneelca,
welcome. how cool is it that your psych prescribed for you. and up to 250! she must be pretty progressive. did she tell you how she came across BAC? and if you don't mind me asking.... what part of the world are you in?
there is a thread on here somewhere about doc's that prescribe. I think ne started it to help others that were having a hard time finding a prescribing doc. maybe you can add to that. I'm sure someone will come along with the correct thread name.
hey cass,
haven't had a chance to get into "spark" yet. I did thumb through, though. pretty interesting. I'm taking it to Austin this next week and should be able to finish it. visiting the folks there for a week.
I've had a small injury so I'm not exercising the way I was... so I just upped my meditation instead and it's keeping me fairly anxiety free. hope you are doing well. grat.