Losing my religion

[KatieSmiles]

Losing my religion

Very well said Abby, thanks for posting.

Again, I think this thread is important because there is an issue at hand in Meds that needs discussion and perhaps some resolve.

[missyabby1]

Losing my religion

Cheers Katie,

Missy xx

[Otter]

Losing my religion

Just popping in for a chat.

I was reading this thread with interest. It demonstrates something quite profound which I predicted a year ago. That is that Baclofen will reach critical mass. When there are large numbers of people using Baclofen and coming here there will be too many people and too many threads for this forum to work. I found it difficult a year ago so I set up my web site because I wanted the information I was finding saved somewhere so I did not have to keep looking for it. And if I could do that for myself, why not do it for everyone. It costs nothing to set up a web site. They are free. I pay for a domain name, I don't know why.

I have said for some time, a lot more would be gained if more energy was put into taking this debate away from here. I say this because there are more aspects to alcoholism than just a medical treatment. Say, for the sake of argument, that anxiety is the major cause of chronic alcoholism. So, you take Baclofen and you get yourself cured. But then you step outside and everyone on your street still treats you as though you are an alcoholic. The relationships which have caused anxiety remain unchanged. No one else knows about this treatment. No one supports it. And, back you go, over and over to escape the world that does not accept that you are any different. What we need is a 12 step program for Baclofen. 1. Accept that you are an alcoholic. 2. Accept that it is an illness. 3. Accept that there is a treatment for it. 4. Find the treatment. 5. Figure out how to use it. 6. Achieve sobriety. 7. Examine what else you need to beat this illness. 8. Engage in those treatments. 9. Analyze how you became an alcoholic and find ways of not going back down that road again. 10. Tell everyone you know that you had an illness. 11. Make them apologize to you for treating you the way they did. 12. Accept that there is some deeper force within us that is for the good, because if there isn't this would not have been possible. At the end of this you can call yourself a true Baclofenista.

There have been a few articles about Baclofen in magazines but there is still a large vacuum out there in terms of general understanding of this treatment or even knowledge about it. Ghandi is supposed to have said, "first they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win". In my circle, people ignored me, some think it is all very funny but at least they know what I am talking about. Others are fighting me, which is very painful. Some have accepted defeat.

Baclofen is not a "wonder drug" in the sense that it cures alcoholism. It is an effective treatment of anxiety and craving because it mimics a missing brain chemical and that is what makes it stand out from other drugs. The debate about Baclofen treatment is not about Baclofen vs. other drugs but whether it is the only drug that is necessary, whether there are other therapies needed in addition to it, whether it does not work for some people and why. The underlying theory of Baclofen is sound. James Garbutt has now admitted as much. That says something.

Then, beyond that, is public awareness. Not just to spread the word for people who need treatment, but so that one can walk down the street and not be treated like a leper. That is the real challenge.

MWO is great but it is not the be all and end all of alcohol therapy and information dissemination. What is needed is a public information campaign. I have to admit it is a worrying thing to get involved in. No one wants to write to 50 friends announcing that one is an alcoholic! But that is precisely the point. Why not, if it is an illness, which it is. Some people here are starting to show us who they are. Many of you know my name and my background and it is scary for me. I think it is worthwhile though. I sit with friends and the joke now is "you need to take some Baclofen for that". There was a research project at Johns Hopkins into Baclofen for Tourettes. It didn't work but it made them feel better about themselves. There is a study in Toronto into its use for nicotine addiction. It is used for autism. This is all because the part of the brain that it effects is now becoming better understood and scientists are discovering that this part of the old brain is far more important than anyone realized. We all think of behaviour as emanating from "thoughts" over which we have control. We are humans, not animals. We can control our behaviour. We have a cerebral cortex which animals don't. We are superior.

But we aren't and that is the funny thing. We are stupid. We poison ourselves with foods that we would never feed to an animal. We chemically destroy our brains and then say we can get back to normal by an act of "will".

Ne, I give you full credit for your determination. If you feel discouraged now, though, how will you feel in a year when there are even more people here. Two million people die a year of alcoholism and that is the tip of the iceberg. I am afraid that once a few hundred thousand people start posting here you just won't be able to keep up.

So, why not start thinking about other ways of spreading the news about this. Get people interested. Write to the press, politicians, local health boards...anyone. Tell anyone you can think of who might be interested. First they will ignore you...

Well, there it is.

As for us, well, it is an up and down battle. Baclofen works to stop cravings. But, there are other factors. Sugar is a factor. Anxiety is a huge factor and that is a two way street. It is caused by how we view the world but also by how the world views us and those are things that are hard to change. But you have to start somewhere. Maybe we will get there maybe not. But without Baclofen, I would not have a hope.

Best wishes.:h

[ignominious]

Losing my religion

Love the 12 step programme, particularly step11!

More seriously, as you mentioned, I have found it is surprisingly difficult to announce myself as someone who suffered from alcoholism despite wanting to spread the word about baclofen. The taboo attached is something that I would rather avoid if the person doesn't already know.

I have a little problem in my recovery atm which I feel is due to the lack of follow up that you mention here:
"The debate about Baclofen treatment is not about Baclofen vs. other drugs but whether it is the only drug that is necessary, whether there are other therapies needed in addition to it"
However once I reconfirm baclofen's efficacy I shall make renewed efforts to give people the opportunity to take advantage of this amazing drug.

Inspiring post and good to see you.

[Otter]

Losing my religion

Thanks Ig.

It is not an easy road and not "effortless".

There is a developing view also that it is not necessary to be abstinent if one is on Baclofen. The object is to obtain indifference, not abstinence. Is that heresy?

[bleep]

Losing my religion

Very good post Otter, thank you. I too particularly enjoyed Step 11!

I've already started something small here based on our previous discussions, I've a nice quiet weekend ahead, so let me start giving this some serious thought to your post, and to what it means.

Abstinence has never been my goal, to deal with your second post. So not heresy to me.

[ignominious]

Losing my religion

Otter;1151007 wrote:


There is a developing view also that it is not necessary to be abstinent if one is on Baclofen. The object is to obtain indifference, not abstinence. Is that heresy?

I think it may be a view more accepted by some of the more verbal members here and its difficult to know how much I have been influenced by it.

Certainly OA himself mentioned that he could have a drink and have no further compunction to keep imbibing. Personally I've always been leery of dabbling with my ability or not to be able to drink sensibly but I am also too curious not to experiment! Heresy - I don't think so - someone's got to do it in the interests of scientific research! For me, at least, its a combination of chemical imbalance and psychological factors that have led and do lead to my alcoholic behaviour and the more I understand what is happening the better off I will be.

What are your views on it?

[bleep]

Losing my religion

I'm aware it's probably not the most enlightened viewpoint one could have, which is why I'll only really bring it up when specifically asked about it. Took me a while, but I'm happy to be where I am now.

I completely agree that seeking a fuller understanding is the way to go about it, and I'm trying to do the same myself.

And I wouldn't call Otter a verbal member, he hardly posts!

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Losing my religion

I apologize for starting this thread and then walking away from it. I have been absolutely inundated with other work. Not wanting to add to the confusion with another hurried and/or unclear post kept me from responding.

I'm also going to follow the digression for a moment, and revisit the things that KatieS, beatle and others brought to light after my initial post afterward. I agree it might be an important discussion, though I'm loathe to open that revolving door again.

First to Otter:
(I've numbered 'em so I don't have to quote them individually! I'm still pressed for time.)

Otter;1150941 wrote: I
1.There have been a few articles about Baclofen in magazines but there is still a large vacuum out there in terms of general understanding of this treatment or even knowledge about it.
...

2.Baclofen is not a "wonder drug" in the sense that it cures alcoholism. It is an effective treatment of anxiety and craving because it mimics a missing brain chemical and that is what makes it stand out from other drugs. The debate about Baclofen treatment is not about Baclofen vs. other drugs but whether it is the only drug that is necessary, whether there are other therapies needed in addition to it, whether it does not work for some people and why. The underlying theory of Baclofen is sound. James Garbutt has now admitted as much. That says something.

3.Then, beyond that, is public awareness. Not just to spread the word for people who need treatment, but so that one can walk down the street and not be treated like a leper. That is the real challenge.

We are humans, not animals. We can control our behaviour. We have a cerebral cortex which animals don't. We are superior.

But we aren't and that is the funny thing. We are stupid. We poison ourselves with foods that we would never feed to an animal. We chemically destroy our brains and then say we can get back to normal by an act of "will".

4.Ne, I give you full credit for your determination. If you feel discouraged now, though, how will you feel in a year when there are even more people here. Two million people die a year of alcoholism and that is the tip of the iceberg. I am afraid that once a few hundred thousand people start posting here you just won't be able to keep up.

As for us, well, it is an up and down battle. Baclofen works to stop cravings. But, there are other factors. Sugar is a factor. Anxiety is a huge factor and that is a two way street. It is caused by how we view the world but also by how the world views us and those are things that are hard to change. But you have to start somewhere. Maybe we will get there maybe not. But without Baclofen, I would not have a hope.

Good to hear from you here, Otter. I hope that there are more ups than downs, and that you are managing anxieties near and far. That's a bear of a burden to manage, in and of itself. You'll get there. :l

1. The articles about baclofen are not very informative. They leave more questions unanswered than they anything else. Particularly the interviews. The message often seems to me to be a self-aggrandizing one that does not take into account the real-world issues surrounding baclofen. I find this very frustrating.
The ones that are scientifically grounded, with experts etc... are even more frustrating. In short, the dissemination of information is woeful, inaccurate and misleading. It is no wonder there has not been more of a response.
That said, there are at least two rehabs that I know of in the Northeast US that are using baclofen, but not HDB.
2. With all due respect, Otter, I'm not sure that I agree with any of the things you've written here. Baclofen may indeed be a wonder drug. It may actually cure alcoholism. It created more than a bit of chemically induced anxiety for me when I was titrating up. For me, it is EXACTLY the debate between baclofen vs. other anti-addiction medications. Baclofen does something, works in ways that no other medication does. (THIS IS NOT TO SAY I THINK IT'S THE ONLY WAY OUT. Please don't misunderstand my words.)
I'm also not sure that I, personally, need other medications in order to be well. I'm still sussing that out. (I'm not sure who Garbutt is? The actor? What'd he say?)
3. The public can only rely on the same things most of us here rely on. Conventional wisdom, in the form of oft repeated information is what drives addiction care and public perception. It is only when there are enough of us with enough recovery that it will be validated that alcoholism is a disease that can be treated with medication. Mediations up until this point have focused on mitigating the affect of alcohol. NOT on treating the underlying chemical dysfunction. That in itself makes baclofen revolutionary. But bac isn't a magic bullet, and the side effects negate the ability for many people to take it. The search must go on.
OA and baclofen have opened the doors, and perhaps blown the roof off the house that 12-step-recovery built. That comes with it's own challenges. We won't know until we know if it works for a long time. There isn't much proof. Except for each of us that have tried it and found the promised result. In that, there is absolutely no denying the efficacy.

The human vs. animal debate is also one that has been raging for time out of mind. Aristotle to Darwin, ancient philosopher to modern geneticist. It's a moot point only in terms of being able to live my life, sober, functioning and relatively content. Like you, (I think) I'll trust science to take care of the sobriety part, and scientific based philosophy in the form of therapy to help with the contentment. That and force of will!
4. I am determined but not, as some would suggest, to shape MWO, exactly.
I'm determined to get to the heart of the matter, to be heard, to have acknowledgement that this is a disease I suffer from. Many of the things that you mentioned. I'm too new to this sobriety/healthy thing to have much of an impact in the greater world, though. Especially in light of the abstinence vs. moderation debate. There is no acknowledgment of recovery, in the treatment of addiction world, if one drinks at all. That is counter to everything that's been shown to work in the past.
I started this thread because I was annoyed and frustrated, not discouraged. I'd like nothing better than to see the place overrun with new faces and new thoughts. It seemed to me that it was going in the exact opposite direction and that people were feeling left out, and were literally going unanswered. In retrospect, I should've let it be. Maybe. :H I don't like hurt feelings, mine or others, and I don't like it when people might feel left out. THAT is my own issue, though, and I'm hoping therapy will help. :H again.
The single most important thing to me, for me, about the meds threads in MWO is that there is NO OTHER PLACE where people understand the basis/basics of the discussion. It IS heresy to talk about being able to drink normally in the greater world. For that reason and many others, I stay close to my lifeline here.

In the meantime, I try to keep it in perspective, though the battle is being lost by many of us every day. Time. Everything takes time. There is a study, finally! There are more of us all of the time! There is, at least, a discussion in the social media. I suspect there is one in the treatment community as well. For all of the reasons, or for the simplest reason ($$$) that will take even more time, and may even be a lost cause. Long live the quiet revolution.
Peace, Otter. Thank you for your thoughts. As ever, they spur me to create some new ones!
:h
Ne

[Otter]

Losing my religion

Thanks Ne
I should correct myself. In stopping alcoholic craving, Baclofen is a wonder drug. But I think there is more to getting your life back after years of drinking. Craving and "alcoholism" are not the same thing, which is why I have gone on about spreading the word. Also, binging due to hormonal shifts is not always "alcoholism" and getting slaughtered because you are facing huge stress is not necessarily alcoholism either, just escaping.

When I said it is not Baclofen vs. other drugs I meant that, in my mind, Baclofen has already won. The next step is to go beyond Baclofen and look at adjunct therapies and "curing" society which includes educating doctors.

Perhaps a letter to health authorities, Ministries, etc., pointing out that doctors should know about this because, even if they are not prescribing, the taking of Baclofen is about to sky rocket and they may be confronted with patients who are self prescribing and they should know about it and the theory behind it...and help with it.

Just a thought.

I am looking for a new job by the way. This time I want to get a :goodjob:

[ignominious]

Losing my religion

Ne.I love you in the most platonic way and from our private conversations you know I could love you far more aggressively!

I just want to say that you must 'cool it'!

We all get bees in our bonnets and maybe that's part of the process to redemption..............!

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Losing my religion

Otter;1151303 wrote: they may be confronted with patients who are self prescribing and they should know about it and the theory behind it...and help with it.

I completely agree. My personal physician, who thinks I'm nuts for taking baclofen, has information from the thread that you wrote pertaining to baclofen reduction under duress. I hope we don't ever have to use her limited knowledge, should I end up in the hospital, for instance. But it's comforting to me that she has it. Thanks again.

GOOD LUCK on the :goodjob:

Ig, jkttdp.

[Lo0p]

Losing my religion

Here, Here Otter!

Garbutt is an ass. He works at U of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (I think) and does studies once every couple of years of 10mg baclofen t.i.d. (30mg/day) and reports the (mixed) results, swearing the whole time that it kind of works, but it's not sufficient and needs to be combined with other medications.

[ignominious]

Losing my religion

Ne/Neva Eva;1151417 wrote:

Ig, jkttdp.

:H:l

[GettingSerious]

Losing my religion

Huh. gotta say, this whole thread made me feel kinda weird. I posted sporadically here and there on others' threads when I first started and was specifically encouraged to start one for myself (which I have not been very good at). Additionally, I did not want to be accused of "highjacking." Figuring whatever thread I started was my own, and seeing others writing about themselves and their issues on theirs, I thought I could probably write about whatever I wanted. Sometimes the writing is even more important than who's reading. Catharsis.

Anyway, I would probably, most definitely, be considered a blog-style writer. i don't post all the time, but when i do, my posts probably tend towards essays. additionally, baclofen and I are having a very on-again off-again relationship. Should I be posting somewhere else? not trying to piss anyone off - it's just that, you know, bac goes hand-in-hand with drinking, and drinking goes hand-in-hand with life......

but i will say, it was the individual stories that engaged me at the outset, that encouraged me to come here and actually try this with you folks. i don't think they post anymore, but it was the stories of edostan and charlieboy that i started following.

anyway, i didn't know there was a blog section, so if there is, i suppose i should go there. let me know. thanks.