Keep doing what you're doing GS. The blog section on the site is moribund, and that's being kind. No rules are the best rules in this particular instance, I reckon.
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bleep;1151555 wrote: Keep doing what you're doing GS. The blog section on the site is moribund, and that's being kind. No rules are the best rules in this particular instance, I reckon.Started Baclofen 3/9/10 Hit my switch at 250mg on 21/11/10 Present maintenance dose of 50mg : started drinking after 1 year, upped dose to 80mg and stopped: Tapered to 30mg, started 6 months of drinking, upped dose to 240mg to stop 12/7/12
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Losing my religion
Let it go, Ig. You're starting to piss me off.
GS, thanks for your input. One of the things that filled me with consternation when I started this was how instantaneously it was derailed. Particularly from people who don't necessarily participate on this part of the forum. The point I was trying to make was NOT that the blogs were bad, unnecessary, a moot exercise...
I feel exactly the opposite. I was lamenting the lack of participation in general, the fact that suddenly there seemed to be very little interaction outside of the blog-type stuff and very little of the stuff that was being written had anything to do with baclofen.
The rest? Much of it was written by people who are upset about something else. (No offense folks, I get it. I just don't totally agree. Also, if you don't participate, that's not on me/us, that's on you. just sayin)
The blogs are excellent. Following the progression of sickness to health is profound. When I came here I had to follow people's thoughts all over various threads to figure out what they did, how they found the goal or why they didn't. Much better to have it all in one place, imho.
Wouldn't it be nice if there was a balance? A place to check in for those of us who have been around for a while. A place where someone could reach out if they didn't want to start a blog? An immediate attention getter if someone has a desperate need, but can't start a thread...
That's all I was suggesting. Old timers reaching out. Lurkers jumping in. Creating a new space for those of us who don't need a play-by-play, what-do-I-do-now thread.
Not designing, not insisting, not even really caring anymore. That said, I can't be the only one who shares Dr. L's number, or the information about contraindicated meds, or previous titration schedules. And for a week or two there, that's exactly what happened.
Peace out, peeps. I hope you'll keep writing. It's all that matters when it comes right down to it. Sorry for the resounding hijack, though I am not sorry for bringing it up. Like everyone else here, I have a need to express myself in the best way I can... For better or worse...
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Losing my religion
What's the nature? the beast...she's a bitch. We'll see her dead, Reg. Keep the faith. You've got the medicine, and the wherewithal.
My medium is words. I listened to some of this on the radio this morning. Helps me remember what I believe. First and foremost, I'm not my disease and that bitch has to go.
This I Believe | A public dialogue about belief — one essay at a time
xxoo, gotta hit the road. Safe travels everybody!
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Losing my religion
Ne/Neva Eva;1151654 wrote: Let it go, Ig. You're starting to piss me off.
I can't be the only one who shares Dr. L's number, or the information about contraindicated meds, or previous titration schedules. And for a week or two there, that's exactly what happened.
However I do find it offensive when you assume the role as MYO's 'most empathetic and caring helper' and chastise us for shortcoming that are primarily in your imagination.Started Baclofen 3/9/10 Hit my switch at 250mg on 21/11/10 Present maintenance dose of 50mg : started drinking after 1 year, upped dose to 80mg and stopped: Tapered to 30mg, started 6 months of drinking, upped dose to 240mg to stop 12/7/12
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Losing my religion
Maybe that's exactly what happened in your world NE, meanwhile others (including me, and I'm not even on HDB) are getting PM's from inquiring wanna-be-bacsters and doing our best to help them. So the job was shared, afterall.
I guess I just don't understand the problem. I see new people participating and they pop in sometimes on other threads when they feel moved to post. Others never post, that doesn't mean they don't feel welcome. Not everyone uses words as their medium or feels the need to express their feelings and opinions. If someone complained to you about their feeling of lack of involvement or welcome, that doesn't mean the forum is wrong. I've seen more people say the reverse - the forum is very supportive and helpful.
Half a year ago, and again two or three years ago, this was a less welcoming site in my opinion. Perhaps I just understand it better now, but that was my experience.
Perhaps this is being over-thunk.
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Losing my religion
Ne
I was thinking about what you said about not drinking on Baclofen. If one has achieved sobriety and is indifferent to alcohol and is taking Baclofen properly and it is working, then what is the problem? Having said that I don't want to encourage anyone to start drinking.
But, to say that no one will believe that you are not indifferent if you continue to drink is, I think, not the right way to look at it. Suppose one has a sex addiction and seeks treatment and is cured, if that is possible. Do you have to stop having sex so that "professionals" believe you have been cured? If you are cured of a shopping addiction it does not mean you stop shopping.
Part of the theory of Baclofen treatment is that it is not alcohol that makes one an alcoholic. If you replace a missing brain chemical, GABA, with Baclofen then you don't need to drink because you are like everyone else who does not have that shortage. You can have a drink or not and stop, because you are not replacing a missing brain chemical, you have Baclofen.
After all, alcohol is an anxiolitic. It serves as a substitute for the missing GABA rather than being the culprit in alcoholism.
I just think it might be helpful to develop this topic because, having reached the switch, there may be a sense that one has failed somehow if one continues to drink from time to time. Baclofen treatment can be pretty gruelling. If you are not getting the dosage right or miss a dose or have additional stress, then you might "lapse" back into drinking. I think that Baclofen makes "relapse" a thing of the past because really we are talking about a condition of the brain and not a moral issue. If you go back to drinking it is for a physical reason which can be righted.
Also, I am certain there is, in some people, another reason for drinking which has to do with hypoglycaemia. You start taking sugar and that leads to alcohol which has nothing to do with addictive craving and returning to drink because of this does not mean that Baclofen does not work, it just means you need to look at nutrition.
Similarly, if you find yourself in a bad situation and cannot cope, returning to drink to blot out something awful is not alcoholism. Non-alcoholics drink to excess to escape.
Also, women have sugar lows at menstruation and hormones cross the brain barrier and affect the amygdala. These cause a need for alcohol to compensate for the sugar low and to calm the amygdala in the face of an onslaught of hormones. This is bingeing, but not quite the same as alcoholism as such.
I think this needs to be developed because it may be that a lot of people find that baclofen works initially but they then continue to drink and may then feel that Baclofen is not working and give up, or feel guilty or disappointed and then not want to talk about it because they feel that they have failed.
Perhaps the culture of abstinence as the test of success is too severe and may lead to disappointment and people going away because they are discouraged.BACLOFENISTA
baclofenuk.com
http://www.theendofmyaddiction.org
Olivier Ameisen
In addiction, suppression of symptoms should suppress the disease altogether since addiction is, as he observed, a "symptom-driven disease". Of all "anticraving medications used in animals, only one - baclofen - has the unique property of suppressing the motivation to consume cocaine, heroin, alcohol, nicotine and d-amphetamine"
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Losing my religion
I'm so happy to hear that edostan is doing well! I suppose that's the most natural thing of all - indifference = moving on. no long posting here, because you no longer need to. thanks for sharing your off-board knowledge, ne/neva eva. how lovely, how wonderful for his wife and his young child.
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Losing my religion
Otter, it's really great to see you here back on the forum! Here are a couple of things....
Otter;1151965 wrote:
Part of the theory of Baclofen treatment is that it is not alcohol that makes one an alcoholic. If you replace a missing brain chemical, GABA, with Baclofen then you don't need to drink because you are like everyone else who does not have that shortage. You can have a drink or not and stop, because you are not replacing a missing brain chemical, you have Baclofen.
After all, alcohol is an anxiolitic. It serves as a substitute for the missing GABA rather than being the culprit in alcoholism.
This is *your* theory, maybe also Ameisen's, and maybe also Phillip Thomas'. This is not proven fact.
Otter;1151965 wrote:
I just think it might be helpful to develop this topic because, having reached the switch, there may be a sense that one has failed somehow if one continues to drink from time to time. Baclofen treatment can be pretty gruelling. If you are not getting the dosage right or miss a dose or have additional stress, then you might "lapse" back into drinking. I think that Baclofen makes "relapse" a thing of the past because really we are talking about a condition of the brain and not a moral issue. If you go back to drinking it is for a physical reason which can be righted.
Since the moment I reached my switch, I can truly say that I know exactly, *viscerally* *physically* what the condition that is described by the word "alcoholism" is, because I could *feel* that it was no longer *involved* in my body in any way.
I am positively certain that anxiety was never at the heart of my alcohol problem. I became psychologically addicted to alcohol first, after only maybe 5 years of a 20 year career of hard drinking. I embraced that necessity to drink and it treated me pretty well as I barreled through life like a wild man. 8 beers from 8pm-11pm is what I would've considered a sober night for me, weekends it was 20+/day. Even in year 15, I could wake up after a weekend bender and call it quits for a few days knowing that after a few sleepless, sweaty fitful nights I would be normal again, I would go for 2 weeks at a time sober when I had too. It wasn't until about year 18 that my tolerance was so high that 8 beers and a pint of scotch barely got me to sleep at night, and then I found myself pounding 8oz shots ($2 1/2 pints in a mayonnaise jar) of shitty vodka every couple of hours just to close my eyes for 45 minutes. It was in these last years that I was thoroughly physically addicted. Trips to the ER, outpatient, then inpatient detoxes, I would get straight, then the cravings would come back. I *always* started drinking again for the good times, always made a plan, always set limits, and *always* got back out of control and quickly became physically addicted again to the point where I couldn't stop.
My addiction had a psychological component and a physical component and baclofen seems to have stopped the psychological one physically/chemically. It remains to be seen how much baclofen can (prophylactically) protect me in regards to the physical component.
I remain indifferent at 240mg/day. I am confident enough to moderate rarely (1-2 beers once every 2 weeks, 3-4 once every 2 months). I remain very wary that baclofen may lose it's efficacy whether on it's own, or if I learn to "drink through" it's anti-craving action. I also don't believe that there are any guarantees that baclofen absolutely would prevent someone from becoming physically dependent on alcohol despite the "theories" that have been floated around.
Otter;1151965 wrote:
Also, I am certain there is, in some people, another reason for drinking which has to do with hypoglycaemia. You start taking sugar and that leads to alcohol which has nothing to do with addictive craving and returning to drink because of this does not mean that Baclofen does not work, it just means you need to look at nutrition.
Alcohol definitely affects blood sugar regulation, but most likely as a result of negative effects on/damage to the liver and pancreas. It began to affect mine and it had nothing to do with nutrition.
Otter;1151965 wrote:
Similarly, if you find yourself in a bad situation and cannot cope, returning to drink to blot out something awful is not alcoholism. Non-alcoholics drink to excess to escape.
Otter;1151965 wrote:
Also, women have sugar lows at menstruation and hormones cross the brain barrier and affect the amygdala. These cause a need for alcohol to compensate for the sugar low and to calm the amygdala in the face of an onslaught of hormones. This is bingeing, but not quite the same as alcoholism as such.
There's more but I have to go to bed. I would go on to mention the lack of proven long term efficacy of baclofen, and tempting fate by testing it too soon with moderation (paint me a hypocrite) And Where the Fuck is Ameisen, really? who out there on hdb has 5 years sober? Who has even 2 or 1? Also your theories leave out the damage caused by alcohol to other organs/parts of the body (which baclofen can't repair) that make even post switch moderation dangerous and conducive to full blown relapse (like blood sugar regulation, kindling, Protein Kinase C, etc.) I would bring all of that up if I had time, but I don't -tk
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Losing my religion
I'm no doctor or researcher but the effect of alcohol on natural opioid (eg endorphin) release, and the effects this has on dopamine, is probably as much a part of alcohol dependence as its 'GABAergic' effects. Many people feel a buzz, warm glow, mood elevation, etc. after drinking, and this sort of feeling is not likely to be only GABA related.
I have used both alcohol and benzodiazepines in high doses (I don't mean together!) and the two substances feel quite different to me...the benzos definitely lack some of alcohol's mood elevation and buzz in my case, even at fairly high doses. The anxiolytic effect is there however, presumably due to a shared effect on GABA (gaba-a) receptors.
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Losing my religion
terryk;1152052 wrote:
I don't know where you come up with this stuff. I'll admit that I don't know how to explain some reports from baclofen "switched" woman who say that they have cravings during certain specific times during their cycles, but I'm sure that you don't know how to explain them either. I would look to kidney function/water retention, blood shedding (and maybe hormones) first before blaming it on low blood sugar and ONSLAUGHT of hormones.
I looked at Otter's words about women drinking with my mouth hanging open thinking, REALLY, this IS what it feels like, is it really true? He wrote "Also, women have sugar lows at menstruation and hormones cross the brain barrier and affect the amygdala. These cause a need for alcohol to compensate for the sugar low and to calm the amygdala in the face of an onslaught of hormones. This is bingeing, but not quite the same as alcoholism as such."
In my family, we tend to want to drink (badly!) during PMS. And it didn't - at least at first - have anything to do with damaged organs, because one of my first experiences with alcohol was a buzz I got with Christmas eggnog spiked by my dad at mom's direction to aid my cramps. Instant relief and happiness ensued. It was an epiphany for me, unfortunately. I had horrible cycles and I had never, with any other remedy, felt GOOD at this time of month before the alcohol.
Otter also wrote "Perhaps the culture of abstinence as the test of success is too severe and may lead to disappointment and people going away because they are discouraged. " I think this is a valid point, we've gained great success if we cut down drinking by 80-90%, or even 50%, anything is an improvement, really, and smaller victories need to be recognized to continue and perhaps become even more successful. It all shows immense courage and conviction. If I do say so myself!
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Losing my religion
Yes, well, points taken. Ehem. I am not in it for an argument, as you know.
Best wishes all, and thanks.BACLOFENISTA
baclofenuk.com
http://www.theendofmyaddiction.org
Olivier Ameisen
In addiction, suppression of symptoms should suppress the disease altogether since addiction is, as he observed, a "symptom-driven disease". Of all "anticraving medications used in animals, only one - baclofen - has the unique property of suppressing the motivation to consume cocaine, heroin, alcohol, nicotine and d-amphetamine"
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Losing my religion
Two points.
The stuff about women is second hand, but, to me, obvious. Carolyn Dean who wrote Hormone Balance was my GP in Toronto in the 80's before she moved to New York. She is very bright and her book is well worth reading. I was reading it today which is why I mention it.
I am not entirely basing my views about alcoholism on second hand information. I developed a drink "problem" in that by the age of 40 I drank every day of the week and could not stop. I was not out of control with it but it took me a few years to wean myself off it and I did so because I saw myself as having a problem with it. I wish I had Baclofen. Drinking left me in a mess and Baclofen has largely sorted that out although I recognize it brings problems with working and concentrating. I am hoping that Propranolol will be a good adjunct for me to deal with the fuzzy thinking.BACLOFENISTA
baclofenuk.com
http://www.theendofmyaddiction.org
Olivier Ameisen
In addiction, suppression of symptoms should suppress the disease altogether since addiction is, as he observed, a "symptom-driven disease". Of all "anticraving medications used in animals, only one - baclofen - has the unique property of suppressing the motivation to consume cocaine, heroin, alcohol, nicotine and d-amphetamine"
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