Propranolol... and a summing up.

[Otter]

.

[gratitude]

Propranolol... and a summing up.

otter,
interesting hypothesis on BAC and the amygdala. can you point to the research for us science geeks? thanks grat.

[terryk]

Propranolol... and a summing up.

Otter;1152281 wrote: No other drug does the same thing because Baclofen is the only synthetic Gaba analogue.
Not true. Gabapentin and Phenibut are also synthetic Gaba analogues.

Otter;1152281 wrote:
2. The method of administration is to start with very small divided doses. It is important to spread the doses as evenly as possible over the 24 hour day, even in the night with higher doses before bed and on waking up. It is not a good idea to take large doses of 60 mg or so three times a day because this leads to side effects of high dose and withdrawal. The total dose is not as important as achieving a level administration of the drug so that craving abates but there are no side effects. Total daily dose of this drug should be 10 mg every 3 days.
3 things: 1) You imply that baclofen "withdrawal" happens between successive doses in a single day. I think that your use of withdrawal here is incorrect and misleading. 2) Much anecdotal evidence reported here suggests that it *is* the total dose in one's body that provides the anti-craving mechanism (but also that smaller frequent doses prevent side effect flares) 3) The last sentence, do you mean: "Total increase in daily dose of this drug should be 10 mg every 3 days?"

Otter;1152281 wrote:
3. Fuzzy head can be helped with propranolol.
Can you elaborate here a bit?And don't forget to mention that Beta-Blockers (like propranolol) are suspected in provoking high blood sugar and Type 2 Diabetes, which is a big complication for people who have been/are abusing alcohol. (I take atenolol for my blood pressure, fyi)

Otter;1152281 wrote:
4. Baclofen can, and should, be used for alcohol withdrawal with only limited use of benzodiazapines, to avoid cross addiction. Studies have shown that Baclofen is as good as benzodiazapines for withdrawal and can be used during drinking whereas Benzodiazapines cannot, thereby allowing for detox to start during drinking.

The studies I've read have mentioned limited doses of baclofen with uncomplicated withdrawal and still have mentioned use of benzos to control serious symptoms:
Safety and efficacy of baclofen in the treatment o... [Curr Pharm Des. 2010] - PubMed result

The more recent reports I've read suggest that there's not enough evidence to support using baclofen alone for withdrawal:
Baclofen for alcohol withdrawal. [Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2011] - PubMed result
Efficacy and safety of pharmacological interventio... [Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2011] - PubMed result

Can you point me to the studies that you are referring to?

Otter;1152281 wrote:
6. Having sorted out cravings and diets, it is possible to drink moderately on Baclofen without relapsing, so long as Baclofen is not discontinued.

This has not been proven at all. There are quite a few examples of folks here who have reported abusing alcohol again after tapering down too low in their maintenance doses.

Otter;1152281 wrote:
9. Alcohol itself is not the cause of alcoholism, although it has its own dynamic and causes depletion of brain chemicals and damage which then perpetuates drinking. Alcohol itself acts as an anxiolitic, or calming agent on the brain.

Once again, this is just a theory of yours. I do not believe that anxiety is at the heart of all alcohol addiction, and I am absolutely certain that alcohol will cause physical dependence in *anyone* who makes it a regular day to day habit, regardless of their brain chemistry (in the exact same way that beta-blockers, SSRI's, Opioids, and even baclofen create physical dependence in people who take them on a daily basis).

-tk

[Bruunhilde]

Propranolol... and a summing up.

TK, I am on a beta blocker and have been diagnosed with Metabolic Syndrome which is a precursor to diabetes 2. Will going off it help me? Thanks for the heads up re betablockers, I'm very concerned. B

[Otter]

Propranolol... and a summing up.

.

[redhead77]

Propranolol... and a summing up.

I don't know about propranolol negating the effects of bac. As a matter of fact, it would seem to me a beta blocker, would only add to some of the effects. It is used to lower heart rate, has a good affect on lowering blood pressure, and is sometimes prescribed for anxiety (propranolol specifically). These are NOT the effects I would think great while taking HDB. HDB, in and of itself, already does these things for many. Of course, I am aware it contributes to HTN in some (Bruun and a few others I've read about). It did seem to raise my BP briefly, but now it is lower. This may be due to my decreased AL consumption (most of the time).

As far as beta blockers and type 2 diabetes or metabolic syndrome? I wouldn't be changing your meds just yet Bruun. There aren't any doctors posting that I know of (if they were, they wouldn't be foolish enough to tell you to stop taking your med, for whatever few studies indicate this). Just keep taking your pills, and hope more will come to light in the future.

One thing I'd like to point out. Bac is also indicated as causing insulin resistance and worsening diabetes (in rats?). I have a very personal interest in this. I may start a thread when I can gather some more info/research.

[SlipperyPete]

Propranolol... and a summing up.

Otter, I enjoy your posts, as well as TK's rebuttals. My only thoughts are that at this point there is such limited information regarding baclofen and long-term alcoholism management to make any absolute statements. Interesting, all the same.

[BacloTim]

Propranolol... and a summing up.

I think we are making things up as we go anyways since the medical establishment doesn't really care about us, or so I feel.

All sound like good theories to explore. Science is so behind what we really are that it is CRAZY! They really don't know as much as they claim, even life long scientists have attested to that. It is more of an educated guess than reality. It is up to us to figure things out as well if they don't suffer from the same problems how could they truly understand us? This is a disease of not only the body but of the mind and spirit which they know very little about in reality. I know it is comforting to think someone has all the answers but it isn't the case, we are mere mortals.

Anyway back on topic!. I have a heart murmur which I am positive causes panic attacks. I have talked to 1 doctor and read up more on the link to anxiety and heart murmur and it is shocking how related it is. I have a hard time getting propanolol prescribed since i'm 28 but I hear it works good for that. It was something about it causing me to not function well or some such and only older patients get it.

I found a local hawthorne plant which if the leaves are chewed does seem to work almost as well as Atenelol which I used to be prescribed but it makes me a bit too calmed.

Anyway I think i'll look more into getting on a beta blocker as well since that rushing heart skip causes me to shake and get panicky which in my mind I think "I need a beer!"

[Otter]

Propranolol... and a summing up.

I have heard Baclofen and Atenolol described as the "dream combination" for alcohol craving. Hmmm....

[Guest]

Propranolol... and a summing up.

redhead77;1152550 wrote: I don't know about propranolol negating the effects of bac. As a matter of fact, it would seem to me a beta blocker, would only add to some of the effects. It is used to lower heart rate, has a good affect on lowering blood pressure, and is sometimes prescribed for anxiety (propranolol specifically). These are NOT the effects I would think great while taking HDB. HDB, in and of itself, already does these things for many. Of course, I am aware it contributes to HTN in some (Bruun and a few others I've read about). It did seem to raise my BP briefly, but now it is lower. This may be due to my decreased AL consumption (most of the time).

As far as beta blockers and type 2 diabetes or metabolic syndrome? I wouldn't be changing your meds just yet Bruun. There aren't any doctors posting that I know of (if they were, they wouldn't be foolish enough to tell you to stop taking your med, for whatever few studies indicate this). Just keep taking your pills, and hope more will come to light in the future.

One thing I'd like to point out. Bac is also indicated as causing insulin resistance and worsening diabetes (in rats?). I have a very personal interest in this. I may start a thread when I can gather some more info/research.

Hey Redhead

This is interesting stuff. Don't know if you remember but Spuddleduck is diabetic, and one reason she didn't try Baclofen was because she thought it might affect her diabetes. No-one had any answers and looks as though it could be significant.

[redhead77]

Propranolol... and a summing up.

Ukblonde;1153591 wrote: Hey Redhead

This is interesting stuff. Don't know if you remember but Spuddleduck is diabetic, and one reason she didn't try Baclofen was because she thought it might affect her diabetes. No-one had any answers and looks as though it could be significant.

I am very aware Spuddleduck is a diabetic. Early on here, she asked me about bac and diabetes. I already knew there were indications it may worsen diabetes or contribute to insulin resistance. More on this later. I would like to collect some info (rat research), on what I can and start a thread. I'm not sure how many it would help or who could contribute. I have not heard of many diabetics around here.

[redhead77]

Propranolol... and a summing up.

Otter;1153589 wrote: I have heard Baclofen and Atenolol described as the "dream combination" for alcohol craving. Hmmm....

By whom?

EDIT: I'm not asking this to be cocky. I'm just wondering Otter. And welcome back here!

[Cassander]

Propranolol... and a summing up.

BacloTim;1153427 wrote:
...Science is so behind what we really are that it is CRAZY! They really don't know as much as they claim, even life long scientists have attested to that. It is more of an educated guess than reality. It is up to us to figure things out as well if they don't suffer from the same problems how could they truly understand us? This is a disease of not only the body but of the mind and spirit which they know very little about in reality. I know it is comforting to think someone has all the answers but it isn't the case, we are mere mortals.

...

Tim

You are right. The medical establishment is still trying to figure this all out. Here is a link to an article in the New York Times today which I don't think is particularly well informed or researched

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/02/health/02abuse.html

Cassander

[Bruunhilde]

Propranolol... and a summing up.

BacloTim;1153427 wrote:
Anyway back on topic!. I have a heart murmur which I am positive causes panic attacks. I have talked to 1 doctor and read up more on the link to anxiety and heart murmur and it is shocking how related it is. I have a hard time getting propanolol prescribed since i'm 28 but I hear it works good for that. It was something about it causing me to not function well or some such and only older patients get it.

I found a local hawthorne plant which if the leaves are chewed does seem to work almost as well as Atenelol which I used to be prescribed but it makes me a bit too calmed.

Anyway I think i'll look more into getting on a beta blocker as well since that rushing heart skip causes me to shake and get panicky which in my mind I think "I need a beer!"

I'm on three BP meds Tim, one is a beta blocker. I think Red was the one who told me that beta blockers are thought to lead to insulin resistance/diabetic conditions which I have. In reducing my AL intake by 80% or more, my BP has decreased and the first pill I removed was the beta blocker. Note I had a heart murmur when I was in my twenties but it went away, somehow. Maybe because no one listened to what it was murmuring. I know how it feels not to be heard.

(Thank GOD for my MWO-ers who do hear me).

I have had tremendous anxiety my whole life, or at least since third grade, my BP problems emerged when I tried to get birth control pills at 19. Interesting to hear there is thought to be a link between murmur and anxiety.

Speaking of anxiety, I'm going to post on my anxiety session with the hypnotherapist last night. But I'll do that on my titting thread so as not to hijack.

So sorry to hear of your anxiety Tim, have you tried gabapentin or felt that bac helped? I don't recall if bac helped this for you.

[redhead77]

Propranolol... and a summing up.

It wasn't me Bruun. It was tk. He said it, and I suggested you stay on it. :H