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    Total daily dose v. even dose

    Right.

    I am getting annoyed by this. I also blame OA for what I consider to be bad advice in his book and I blame him and others who do not understand this point for a lot of what we have had happen to us
    OA suggests that you have to go up to a dose dependent on body weight. He also says that he took it in three doses of 60, 30 and 60. That is all I could get from his book. First, I think it is very sparse detail when considering such an important treatment and in light of the massive interest in the treatment and the desperation of those needing it. It leaves no guidance on how to take it.

    So, suppose the total dose right for you is 270 mg per day. What does that mean, just on its own. Nothing. It is even potentially harmful advice. Suppose you took the whole 270 at once. You would sky rocket up, have massive SE's and then plummet down. Is that how stable brain chemistry works? And, as you plummet down again do you reach for a bottle?

    The same goes if you divide it into three doses of 90 mg. Or do you take nine doses of 30 mg or 27 doses of 10 mg?

    The answer is that the dosage depends not on body weight as suggested by OA, but on liver metabolism. You have to find out what level of Baclofen in your system stops craving but does not cause SE's. So, if you have to take 240 per day in 6 divided doses every 4 hours, what that means is the correct level for you is 40 mg in your system, not 240. If you have to take your doses every 4 hours, then that is the elimination rate. If you liver eliminates that amount every 5 hours then you need to take less in total per day.

    One person may need 25 mg every 3 hours, another might need 30 mg every 2 hours. That is what determines total daily dose.

    That is what I mean when I say that the total daily dose is not important. It is about keeping a level amount in your system and that depends on your own elimination rate and experimenting to find out what dosage gives you relieve from craving without side effects.

    This lack of information means that some have taken large individual doses and find the treatment has too many side effects and just does not work. Then, because of the SE's some decide not to take it, go off it, return to drinking, mixing drink with Baclofen and get themselves into hellish problems. Until they find someone who understands this.


    I hope I have made myself clear.
    BACLOFENISTA

    baclofenuk.com

    http://www.theendofmyaddiction.org





    Olivier Ameisen

    In addiction, suppression of symptoms should suppress the disease altogether since addiction is, as he observed, a "symptom-driven disease". Of all "anticraving medications used in animals, only one - baclofen - has the unique property of suppressing the motivation to consume cocaine, heroin, alcohol, nicotine and d-amphetamine"

    #2
    Total daily dose v. even dose

    Er... no.

    If taking 270mg in one go is making you feel totally fucked up, then BREAK IT UP INTO SMALLER DOSES. It's the same with everything- it's like you're saying "I took an entire week's worth of Vitamin C pills in thirty seconds and now my piss is orange WHY IS THIS GOD I HATE DOCTORS"

    One person may need 25 mg every 3 hours, another might need 30 mg every 2 hours. That is what determines total daily dose.
    Well, no, actually. What determines your daily dose is how much you're supposed to be taking. If it's dependent on body weight and / or liver function, and that is different for everyone, then everyone needs to establish what works for them. Welcome to the wonderful world of how chemistry clearly fucking works.

    Comment


      #3
      Total daily dose v. even dose

      Otter- only about 15% of the baclofen one ingests is metabolized by your liver, the rest is filtered out of your blood by your kidneys and excreted unchanged in your urine. I agree that body weight has nothing to do with effective dose. I believe that while baclofen has anxiolytic action at the GABAb receptor site, it's anti-craving mechanism actually occurs chemically downstream in the dopamine reward center via a cascade of reactions initiated at the GABAb site. That is *my* theory. This theory is based on literature that suggests that baclofen modulates serotonin and especially dopamine in animal models of addiction. My own experience suggests that prn doses do not work for me, that missed/sporadic doses have no effect on craving and that my switch dose was papable 2-3 days after increasing to my switch dosage, 280mg. Many other anecdotal reports on this forum jibe with those trends and there are a few (lo0p, for instance) that report indifference on a few or even single doses per day. I agree that spreading your doses in many even intervals throughout the day *will* minimize side effects, but I don't think that it proves that you need a constant baclofen serum level for baclofen to be effective. In fact, this article I posted in the https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ml#post1112161 illustrates that often there is no rhyme or reason to the way serum baclofen levels rise and fall in the bodies of some people. Just some ideas from me, not an argument, just a different perspective. -tk

      p.s. with that, I'll try and lay off and be here for support, support, support!
      TerryK celebrates 6 years of sobriety and indifference to alcohol thanks to baclofen

      Comment


        #4
        Total daily dose v. even dose

        I agree this is a supportive site but also we can have discussions, right.

        My personal theory is that the effective dose is not related to body weight but maybe related to brain weight (ftr about 3X the size of rats brain:body weight ratio). I think its a function of how much baclofen has got through the blood/brain barrier. This is actually a very small amount of the dose but there is some evidence to suggest that the half life of baclofen is much longer in the brain (can call it the CNS system) than in blood plasma. There is also some evidence showing that half life is not necessarily constant and that it can increase as concentration in the CNS increases. (ie the more bac you have in the brain, the more slowly it gets rid of it).

        The 2- 5 hours commonly reported as the half life of baclofen refers to blood serum levels not CNS levels (which, to my knowledge haven't been measured yet). They are also not an elimination rate but refer to how long it takes to eliminate 1/2 of the substance. 40mg of baclofen (1/2 life of 4 hours) will become 20mg after 4 hours: after a total of 8 hours it will have become 10mg: after a total of 12 hours it will have become 5mg and so on. After 7 half lives the concentration is down to, a negligable less than 1% of the dose and can be considered eliminated.

        There appear to be 2 types of SEs experienced. Some are due to levels of baclofen in the blood and some due to levels in the brain.

        We started discussing this on another thread which has a useful gadget for looking at concentrations compared to dose and half life.

        https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...fen-49547.html
        Started Baclofen 3/9/10 Hit my switch at 250mg on 21/11/10 Present maintenance dose of 50mg : started drinking after 1 year, upped dose to 80mg and stopped: Tapered to 30mg, started 6 months of drinking, upped dose to 240mg to stop 12/7/12

        Comment


          #5
          Total daily dose v. even dose

          Zenstyle;1152548 wrote: Is there a Doctor in the house? Or are you Medders going to subscribe to the rantings of an individual who knows no better than you or I?

          Just askin'...

          I reckon maybe crochet. Or origami. Jigsaw puzzles. Yous need a bloody hobby to take your minds of this perpetual bloody Baclofen enigma. I thought Baclofen was meant to *free* you? Jingos... its all you lot can talk about!

          Get a life!

          Sorry... but, REALLY! Christ...
          Geez, what crawled up your butt?:moon::H
          TerryK celebrates 6 years of sobriety and indifference to alcohol thanks to baclofen

          Comment


            #6
            Total daily dose v. even dose

            What colour?

            As we all know, probably to the point of nausea, I am a great fan of splitting the dose as much as is feasibly possible. Not to mimic how the brain would secrete it, although I use that explanation, but it makes such simple sense to me. If baclofen gives you side effects, don't take a lot of it at one go. How much simpler can you get?

            Comment


              #7
              Total daily dose v. even dose

              I think this is a GREAT thread. I am getting SO much out of it.
              Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life... And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.

              Steve Jobs, Stanford Commencement Adress, 2005

              Comment


                #8
                Total daily dose v. even dose

                The information I gave came from a doctor. It is not my theory but it is the right theory. That is why I posted it.

                Ultimately, it is not about getting something out of a thread. Hopefully, it will be about getting good advice out there somehow. Maybe someone should distil all this into a pocket sized manual...

                No, please DON'T respond to that last comment. It was meant to be humourous.
                BACLOFENISTA

                baclofenuk.com

                http://www.theendofmyaddiction.org





                Olivier Ameisen

                In addiction, suppression of symptoms should suppress the disease altogether since addiction is, as he observed, a "symptom-driven disease". Of all "anticraving medications used in animals, only one - baclofen - has the unique property of suppressing the motivation to consume cocaine, heroin, alcohol, nicotine and d-amphetamine"

                Comment


                  #9
                  Total daily dose v. even dose

                  Zenstyle;1152548 wrote: Is there a Doctor in the house? Or are you Medders going to subscribe to the rantings of an individual who knows no better than you or I?

                  Just askin'...

                  I reckon maybe crochet. Or origami. Jigsaw puzzles. Yous need a bloody hobby to take your minds of this perpetual bloody Baclofen enigma. I thought Baclofen was meant to *free* you? Jingos... its all you lot can talk about!

                  Get a life!

                  Sorry... but, REALLY! Christ...
                  Zenstyle;1152557 wrote:
                  Got feckin fed up hearing it! That's what crawled up my butt!

                  Frikken day in day out back and forth with it... The whole point of getting over an addiction is to GET OVER IT!

                  OK... I'm going back in my box now.

                  LOL...

                  Fuck it... darn I'm laughing at myself. OK.
                  I agree with you Zen,
                  C'mon people, get a life! If I get a script from my doctor, I am going to follow his titrate schedule - if I get it online, I am going to come here and ask the vets. I am not going to sift through the endless threads that say the same shit time after time after time. Who cares??? None of you are doctors, none of you know enough about drugs to be preaching how they work.
                  Get a life! whats the worse addiction - Alcohol or the obssesive need to try to impress people with what you consider to be your "expertise" on baclofen.
                  Really - you dont have a job to think about, or a family, or tv to watch?
                  Just my two cents...
                  Thanks Zen.
                  Hey - maybe we can start a new thread about how baclofen agffects the mind at certin doses (at 20mg - at 50mg - at 100mg) - I dont think that has been discussed yet...

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Total daily dose v. even dose

                    Otter;1152430 wrote: Right.

                    I am getting annoyed by this. I also blame OA for what I consider to be bad advice in his book and I blame him and others who do not understand this point for a lot of what we have had happen to us
                    OA suggests that you have to go up to a dose dependent on body weight. He also says that he took it in three doses of 60, 30 and 60.
                    Otter;1152779 wrote:
                    The information I gave came from a doctor. It is not my theory but it is the right theory. That is why I posted it.
                    You are quoting information from *2* doctors here, and are assigning *your* assessment to which is the correct theory. Just sayin'.

                    What little healthcare I receive comes from a free clinic with a revolving gallery (of very generous) Ivy League medical school doctors. I routinely get different and conflicting advice and theories between them in regards to diagnosis, treatment, and even in the ways that the body functions. Sometimes its like "We are at war with Eurasia. We have always been at war with Eurasia" and next time it's "We are at war with Oceania. We have always been at war with Oceania." I've quickly come to realize that there is a lot of latitude taken with interpretation in the field of medicine and doctors just don't have it all figured out yet. -tk
                    TerryK celebrates 6 years of sobriety and indifference to alcohol thanks to baclofen

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Total daily dose v. even dose

                      Road to Recovery;1152803 wrote: I agree with you Zen,
                      C'mon people, get a life! If I get a script from my doctor, I am going to follow his titrate schedule - if I get it online, I am going to come here and ask the vets. I am not going to sift through the endless threads that say the same shit time after time after time. Who cares??? None of you are doctors, none of you know enough about drugs to be preaching how they work.
                      Get a life! whats the worse addiction - Alcohol or the obssesive need to try to impress people with what you consider to be your "expertise" on baclofen.
                      Really - you dont have a job to think about, or a family, or tv to watch?
                      Just my two cents...
                      Thanks Zen.
                      Hey - maybe we can start a new thread about how baclofen agffects the mind at certin doses (at 20mg - at 50mg - at 100mg) - I dont think that has been discussed yet...
                      It's true, I don't really don't drink anymore and there's other things I should be doing. I had a long, difficult road during my titration to indifference (I wound up in the ER and admitted to the hospital for 5 days at one point, I was ready to give up and it's a fucking miracle that I pressed on) and that largely happened because I followed some *some* advice taken from this forum. I'm not trying to impress anyone. I just pop in now and again to help out, correct blatant disinformation, and remind folks that their mileage may vary. With that I'm outta here, and will stop posting for a while.....
                      -tk
                      TerryK celebrates 6 years of sobriety and indifference to alcohol thanks to baclofen

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Total daily dose v. even dose

                        I don't get it Road and Zen. I don't understand what problem you have when someone tries to make sense of what is happening with this drug. There are other drugs on these boards that may be complimentary; sometimes bac it works, sometimes not, why?

                        Leave it to the Doctors, plueeese.

                        If you don't want to know about how it works then do you really need to tell people to shut up who are talking about just that. No one who's posted here has professed to be an expert on baclofen but I for one have had very useful information from these people.

                        "Get a life", what's with that? Do you mean compulsive posting on threads that hold no interest for you on an alcohol recovery forum?

                        This happens from time to time and I get discouraged from posting, not everybody wants or gets the same thing out of MYO but it hasn't run out of its usefulness to me yet and unfortunately I haven't found a satisfying alternative yet.

                        I think there is enough space for all types of discussions here.
                        Started Baclofen 3/9/10 Hit my switch at 250mg on 21/11/10 Present maintenance dose of 50mg : started drinking after 1 year, upped dose to 80mg and stopped: Tapered to 30mg, started 6 months of drinking, upped dose to 240mg to stop 12/7/12

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Total daily dose v. even dose

                          I believe the issue is constantly posting the same information time after time after time. What is the point? It just gets lost and isnt easily found if some one is interested. If people want to know, they will ask.
                          I really dont care - it worked for me and thats all I care about. I dont need to see 5 different threads started everyday about "how" some people think it works.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Total daily dose v. even dose

                            Otter, have you read Amiesen's book? Does he actually advise a dosage of 270mg at any point?

                            I don't recall having come across this anywhere in his volume. Thanks for any clarification you can provide. ~Mazie

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Total daily dose v. even dose

                              Thanks so much for the information, fellas.

                              I wonder about a couple of things. How is it possible that taking it consistently 24 hours a day is productive, Otter? Particularly if one is taking it every couple of hours?

                              Terry, I'm always glad to have your thoughts on the matter. I feel as though I notice soon after I miss a dose, or in some way mix up my doses. This has resulted in, among other things, craving, but not consistently. Just every now and then. Is it an erroneous assumption on my part? What are your thoughts?
                              I've been meaning to ask you two other pertinent questions. Do you still take it evenly spread out, or have you tried to condense the doses?
                              Have you always been indifferent, consistently? Was it something that became more solidified with time? Seems to me that you told me that your aversion to booze has grown?


                              Look, I'm not going to quote anybody or call anyone out, but this type of discussion is vitally important.

                              I would guess that if you think it's redundant it's because you are not taking baclofen. If you are taking baclofen, or are thinking about taking baclofen, understanding how to take it, and why that is the recommended way to take it, is rather paramount.

                              I am attempting, at this moment, to lessen the frequency of how often I take it. An understanding of how it works is rather important to me at this juncture. It's also hotly debated. I'd like to put it to rest and think that we are on to something with this thread.

                              Finally, there are no doctors. None. Dr. L is not consistent when he prescribes dosing regimens. I've given up trying to suss out why, and don't care. There are still people who think that titrating up quickly and in large amounts works. I happen to disagree. I'd like to understand it more in order to be able to help people more effectively. Is that hard to understand?

                              This is ALL about the dissemination of information. How to do it effectively and consistently. If there are others that would like to contribute, that would be great. Suggestions are welcome. But people who are not vested
                              derailing a dialogue? I don't understand why you don't just keep shrugging, people, and shaking your heads, muttering "geez. The meds peeps are at it again." We're just trying to understand it better. Ya' know?

                              Maz, I don't think Otter suggested that. At all.

                              Comment

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