Here goes - Bottlestopper's Baclofen journal

[Getting There]

Here goes - Bottlestopper's Baclofen journal

So glad that you are feeling better!

[bottlestopper]

Here goes - Bottlestopper's Baclofen journal

OK well in the middle of the night I so regretted going up by 40 - jeez the apnea was absolutely bloody awful. Even 6am didnt bring any relief. by 9am I fell asleep until 11am. I was also sooooo emotional last night, I was watching the bridges of madison county on tv and I started to cry and just couldnt stop, I hated myself, my life, my husband. God I was a mess. However, I am still not drinking - yeah!

I am feeling very tired, but the brain fog has abated quite a bit, so I think I will still get some work done today. Wil take a nap this afternoon to catch up on a bit of zzzz's.

I worked out that I actually have 4 weeks untiil I start teaching a full time table. The 4th week I have to teach a reduced timetable for thursday and friday, and I am going to do some ice breaking team games etc with them to ease the load for myself. therefore I feel I have enought time to sort of get this cracked. Maybe I wont have gone back down, but I should have hit the switch if I dont need masses of the stuff. I have some bed and breakfast customers coming for 3 days from Wednesday to Saturday, so I will only go up by 20 on thurdsay, do not want a whole new set of massive se's whilst i have to do bed, breakfast and 4 course dinner every night. then MOnday 22nd up to 240, Friday 26th up to 280, Wednesday 31st up to 320. then thursday 1st September (the end of my month of AF) I will test it and see if I am indeed indiffferent. If not, I will then go up very slowly by 10 every 5 days so that I can manage going back to school. Does this sound like a plan? I know i might have to change it, but this is the general idea.

With the apnea, it really is absolutely awful, I think it was made worse last night because I had been so upset, bac seems to inflame my nasal passages and I feel as if I have something permanently stuck in my throat, like a piece of apple peel, and even with the claritin and mucinex and decongestant it is stil there. After crying so much, I just think everything was really inflamed and this made it worse for me last night. Maybe tonight wont be so bad, I hope not.

Ne - I cant get hold of xanax here, or in fact any of the supplements, I am in the middle of nowhere and if I order online, I will nearly be back to england by the time they arrive, so I will wait until I get back to the UK and see if I can get some then, if I need some. The libido efffect you talk about, well I hope that kicks in soon. My experience so far is quite the opposite, very little interest in sex and in fact a real difficulty to orgasm and when I do it is so tiny it is almost non existant (sorry to be so graphic, but anyone else had this SE)

Murph, thanks for the sound advice, all of it is so sensible. Like I say I will go for the supplements when I get back to the UK, I will do some exercise daily, I will. Just doing a little bit quicker titration to try and get this done by the time I go back to school.

Sammi - thank you, it means a lot that you think I am amazing and incredibly brave. Perhaps I am stupid, rather than brave. I dont know.

now for some questions. I have two trains of thought going on in my head at the moment.

First one - do I load my doses so that I have finished by about 6pm to give myself time for most of the bac to be out of my system before bed time. Would this help with the apnea, sleep disturbances. However, this would mean I was taking much larger doses in the day and this could bring back the bloody brain fog.

Second one - When the apnea gets bad, usually about 3am in the morning, could I be in some sort of withdrawal, would taking 20mg in the middle of the night help. A sort of opposite approach to above.

Oh and a third one, I have some sleeping tablets, only 7 days worth, but should I take these to help with the apnea, or would that just make it worse, as it seems my throat is relaxing too much so would that make it relax more.

I have some seroplex (escitalopram) for depression, given me a few months ago by the doctor for anxiety, I instinctively didnt want the anti depressants because I hate the feeling they give me, but should I take them to get past this awful low feeling I have and the constant over emotions.

Phew - that was long one, with lots of questions. I hope you are not all fed up of my daily rantings, I want to be able to remember how it felt, and also maybe my journey could help others along the way. I hope so.

Still commited to my goal, but struggling a wee bit.

Today it is two weeks AF, it is a long time since I have done that. - now that is something to be proud of.

Have a good Monday everyone.:thanks:

[bottlestopper]

Here goes - Bottlestopper's Baclofen journal

The sleeping pill is zolpidem, wiki says this
Zolpidem (Ambien, Stilnox) is a prescription medication used for the short-term treatment of insomnia, as well as some brain disorders. It is a short-acting nonbenzodiazepine hypnotic that potentiates gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), an inhibitory neurotransmitter, by binding to GABAA receptors at the same location as benzodiazepines.[2] It works quickly (usually within 15 minutes) and has a short half-life (2?3 hours).

Does this mean it is quite like baclofen and therefore I shouldnt take together?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Here goes - Bottlestopper's Baclofen journal

bottlestopper;1163712 wrote: Does this sound like a plan? I know i might have to change it, but this is the general idea.

• do I load my doses so that I have finished by about 6pm to give myself time for most of the bac to be out of my system before bed time.
• would taking 20mg in the middle of the night help. A sort of opposite approach to above.I have some sleeping tablets,I have some seroplex (escitalopram) for depression,

Still commited to my goal, but struggling a wee bit.

Today it is two weeks AF, it is a long time since I have done that. - now that is something to be proud of.

It sounds like a plan, and you may have to change it!

I would suggest taking baclofen like you would any medication. Regularly and evenly spaced. Period. It's simple chemistry or biology or both.
If you do decide to switch it up, both of those options have been employed by others. I can't say that I know which, if either, worked. It's worth a shot to find some relief if you hit a wall, though. Any change has to be done for a couple of days, I'd think, to figure out what affect/effect is going on. Maybe.

The SEs are going to come, and it's very important to manage your thoughts about them, and mitigate them when you can. Sounds like you are well on your way to doing just that. Good job! (btw, there is a thread or two or six dedicated to the sexual SEs of bac. What you describe is normal and several of us have experienced that. The opposite is true, too. You won't believe it. )

No new meds. None. Especially not antidepressants. I can't emphasize that enough. No ADs, especially SSRIs.
That said, a couple of people have used zolpidem and it's helped and sleep is a very important factor in managing both SEs and your thoughts about SEs. Whatever you have to do to get some sleep is a good idea. I really wish I'd employed medicinal means to get some sleep.
There's a sleep thread started by Isolde. I'll find it. Are you reading around? That's helpful, and helps others too. An important tool, imho.

Eyes on the goal is the place I like to start and end the day. The days that I do this are better than the days that I don't.
A hearty and heartfelt congratulations on the two weeks. That's HUGE! Not sure why you'd test anything if your goal is abstinence. You'll know when you know, and testing is a great way to muddy the waters. But it matters not in this moment. In this moment the goal is getting to the goal, right? :H

CONGRATULATIONS and keep it up!
jkttdp!
:l
Ne

[bleep]

Here goes - Bottlestopper's Baclofen journal

Sorry to hear you had a rough night Stopper. Well done for ploughing through it.

There are several schools of thought on what to do in the night regarding baclofen (In fact, it's not even fair to call them schools. There are lots of people, with different ideas). I always used to take a bit if I was awake, figuring that spreading it out further would help ease the load. Whether this is actually true or not is debatable, but it always made sense to me.

If you are able to realise that you are emotional because of baclofen, I find it helps, rather than just being emotional. Not a huge difference, but an important one.

As to your plan, the best thing to do is probably experiment with it, and see which approach works best.

Hopefully the SE's will calm down now that you are resting on a level for a bit.

Congratulations on the 2 weeks! We are all rooting for you.

[bottlestopper]

Here goes - Bottlestopper's Baclofen journal

Now this frightens me.....

Baclofen is a lipophilic analogue of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), an inhibitory neurotransmitter in central nervous system. The aim of the study was to evaluate some clinical aspects of acute intoxication with baclofen. Fifty two patients (37 females and 15 males) aged from 14 to 58 (mean 30.6 +/- 13.7) years were analyzed. Patients were admitted to the Clinic of Internal Diseases and Acute Poisonings Medical University of Gdańsk and the Centre of Acute Poisonings of Praski Hospital in Warszawa during the years 1996-2004 because of suicidal intoxication with baclofen. The doses of baclofen varied from 100 to 1500 (mean 444.8 +/- 317.8) mg. There were twenty eight patients (53.8%) in deep coma (III and IV grade of Matthew scale). Acute respiratory failure which required mechanical ventilation was observed in 18 cases (34.6%). Cardiac abnormalities included bradycardia (36.5%), hypertension (32.7%) and hypotension (3.8%). Toxic psychoses were observed in 6 cases (11.5%). The dosage of baclofen in patients with acute respiratory failure (ARF) was significantly higher than in patients without ARF. Treatment of patients with acute baclofen intoxication should take place in hospitals appropriately equipped which can provide artificial respiration.

[RudyB]

Here goes - Bottlestopper's Baclofen journal

hey stopper!

looks like you've been doing some research, maybe in those frightening pauses in reality when you daren't go to sleep? aw shucks! this study has a mean bac intake of 448 mg, right? you are nowhere near that! nor are most people who post here. some have been close. none have died. are you relating this to your apnea? we promise, you won't die!

i wish i had advice on your meds combo questions. i, too, considered a sleeping pill during the apnea phase, but was too scared to try it. i would go w your gut on this one.

most of all, though, please don't lose heart or start to worry overmuch. this is a scary part of the ride, but you'll pull through it. (how many days now w the apnea? about 4 or 5, right? i would guess it's almost over, if'n last night's wasn't the last.)

read around the threads for encouragement. a lot of people have gone through what you're experiencing, and most of them have pulled through to a rather delightful state of being. and you're not drinking, right?! !!!

xo rudy b

[Murphyx]

Here goes - Bottlestopper's Baclofen journal

The moral of the story is, if you want to kill yourself, don't use baclofen. You won't die, but it will mess you up for a while.

People here have been way over those levels and not had any problems. The reason being: we titrate.

Didn't Bleep get up to 750?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Here goes - Bottlestopper's Baclofen journal

bottlestopper;1163766 wrote: Now this frightens me.....

Baclofen is a lipophilic analogue of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), an inhibitory neurotransmitter in central nervous system. The aim of the study was to evaluate some clinical aspects of acute intoxication with baclofen. Fifty two patients (37 females and 15 males) aged from 14 to 58 (mean 30.6 +/- 13.7) years were analyzed. Patients were admitted to the Clinic of Internal Diseases and Acute Poisonings Medical University of Gdańsk and the Centre of Acute Poisonings of Praski Hospital in Warszawa during the years 1996-2004 because of suicidal intoxication with baclofen. The doses of baclofen varied from 100 to 1500 (mean 444.8 +/- 317.8) mg. There were twenty eight patients (53.8%) in deep coma (III and IV grade of Matthew scale). Acute respiratory failure which required mechanical ventilation was observed in 18 cases (34.6%). Cardiac abnormalities included bradycardia (36.5%), hypertension (32.7%) and hypotension (3.8%). Toxic psychoses were observed in 6 cases (11.5%). The dosage of baclofen in patients with acute respiratory failure (ARF) was significantly higher than in patients without ARF. Treatment of patients with acute baclofen intoxication should take place in hospitals appropriately equipped which can provide artificial respiration.

Lots of reasons to be scared. 52 reasons in 18 years. All of them suicidal, it looks like.

All medicines require caution and knowledge. I applaud your efforts on both parts.
The reason, for instance, I suggest staying away from SSRIs is because I've looked into them on my own behalf. After some anecdotes around here relating to increased cravings for alcohol on ADs I went searching some more. What I found seems to indicate that ADs and alcoholics don't mix. Without even adding bac to the mix.

A recent study posted by Otter, I think, suggests a contraindication between an amino acid and bac. That's enough to make me cautious about aminos. There was a study posted some time last summer about ibuprofen and bac. And a caution from Dr. L about using benadryl and bac.

By the time I started my third titration up, with a commitment to see it all the way through, I had stopped taking anything except a multivitamin. No aspirin, nothing. For four months. It was silly, but I was scared, and I didn't want anything to get in the way. Nothing. (I kept drinking of course!)

In my case, it was the fear that was the most debilitating. Not the bac. Oh, and the booze. :H Who knew?
If you're scared to go up, completely understandably, go down, Stopper. There is NO NEED to rush. You're AF. You're doing everything right. You can go down a bit to a more comfortable place and go up slowly until you reach the goal.
You've spent how many years battling this? What's 6 or 8 or 10 months?
Or you can arrest your irrational fears, manage the rational ones, and go for it. I'm glad I did it that way, but I counsel that others should do it the slow way.
Either/or, JUST DON'T QUIT THE FIGHT. It's a tool. Use it. If you give up on it, you might come back to it or end up dead or anywhere in between. Use all the tools you've got, because sobriety is worth it. It just is. Really.

(Start looking for all of the studies that show how safe and effective bac is. Those will help. It's an amazing and fascinating medication with studies all over about lots of things. I can't get enough of it!)

Edit: Have you read the Consolidated Baclofen Thread???

[RudyB]

Here goes - Bottlestopper's Baclofen journal

also, stopper, i wonder why you plan to go so high in your bac dose? seems like you're already having a good bit of luck with the (not) drinking. maybe you need to just sit at this dose for a while, let the se's subside, see if cravings resume. or, are you totally white-knucking it? in that case, i'd say do continue to cautiously titrate up. take ne's advice. it's good.

[bleep]

Here goes - Bottlestopper's Baclofen journal

Hmmm. Does it mention what else they were on? Not that I'm suggesting baclofen isn't powerful, but generally people who are out to end it all go with a mixture, of which baclofen is a part. The reason I say this is because I've taken baclofen in pretty high doses before, sometimes all at once. I've been more than halfway up the 100 - 1500 scale, and way above the mean of 448. One of the keys is titration, as Murph cleverly points out, but I think a huge missing element is what else these people were taking.

Don't worry Stopper. These SE's are something most of us have felt, and got through. You'll get through them too. They are unpleasant, and feel terrible, but they will pass.

[bottlestopper]

Here goes - Bottlestopper's Baclofen journal

OK so last night was the worst ever. I was having the apnea about every 5 mins from almost imnediately i went to bed. At 4am I got up and my guardian angel (aka Ne/NevaEva) was on skype and talked to me and calmed me down - thank you my friend you have no idea how much that meant. I had a hot shower at 6am and went back to bed and had a little bit of sleep, but still very disrupted, even 6 am doesnt bring the relief any more. I have now had this apnea for a week and it is getting worse, not better.

I really dont think I can take any more of this. I am sooo tired, over emotional, irritable and am now filled with anxiety again, that crippling gut wrenching anxiety that bac took away for a while, wow was that a good time. But it is back with a vengeance. I know that some of it is situational anxiety because as the unproductive days are passing by, I am getting nearer to going back to work and I still havent done hardly any of the prep I need to do for the next year. Plus I have about 50 25 page reports to mark. Shit shit, shit!!

This is my 3rd day on 180 and Se's have increased a lot on that level. Maybe, I need to go back down a little bit and go up slower. Take my last dose at 6pm instead of 10pm and give myself some time before bed.

I am worried because the bac seems to be relaxing my respration, even when I am awake at times I feel I am not breathing often enough and have to take really deep breaths to get the oxygen into my lungs. Why would this get better once it has started? I just dont understand that at all. To me, I think now it is here, it will stay.

Any views?

[Murphyx]

Here goes - Bottlestopper's Baclofen journal

Hiya

First off, yes you need to take your last dose earlier, full stop.

RE the apnoea. Sorry I may have missed it, but did you get apnoea before bac? The way I've dealt with it in the past is to use these things Breathe Right nasal strips. They open up your nasal passages so when your mouth closes and your throat relaxes, when you sleep, it helps keep as much air as possible moving through. The other thing is to sleep in a position that keeps the airways open, in my case that's on my side with my head tilted back. If you go to sleep in this position, eventually you'll train yourself to adopt it as yo move in your sleep.

Apnoea is scary as hell, but you're really not going to suffocate, you will wake up each time you start to be oxygen starved. Adopting the above will help prevent that from happening.

Hang in there!

[Sammi33]

Here goes - Bottlestopper's Baclofen journal

Hang in there bottlestopper...wishing you all the strength in the world xx

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Here goes - Bottlestopper's Baclofen journal

bottlestopper;1164253 wrote:
I really dont think I can take any more of this.
... that crippling gut wrenching anxiety that bac took away for a while, wow was that a good time. But it is back with a vengeance.
Not good. It's important to get rid of this so you can: Sleep. Function. Grade papers. Sleep.

bottlestopper;1164253 wrote:
This is my 3rd day on 180 and Se's have increased a lot on that level. Maybe, I need to go back down a little bit and go up slower. Take my last dose at 6pm instead of 10pm and give myself some time before bed.

Not good. You could split the difference. 160mg, last dose at 8pm.

bottlestopper;1164253 wrote:
I am worried because the bac seems to be relaxing my respration, even when I am awake at times I feel I am not breathing often enough and have to take really deep breaths to get the oxygen into my lungs. Why would this get better once it has started? I just dont understand that at all. To me, I think now it is here, it will stay.

Look up panic attacks. They are self-perpetuating. They start with a disruption of breathing. Shallow breathing leads to increased carbon dioxide in the blood, and decreased oxygen. These two things manifest themselves physically and emotionally in a variety of frightening ways. It's remarkable really. So remarkable that calling them panic attacks is like calling a nuclear bomb a, a, a something trite. (someone fill in the blank for me, will you?)
My mother insisted that I was having them when I was having them. Which really pissed me off. Seriously, I was so angry with her about that, thought she was being dismissive. I found that if I talked on the phone (yes, while driving, which is when mine happened) I could arrest whatever was going on and start to think again. The reason? Talking and singing causes one to breath more naturally. Duh. So I took to the ol' breathing in a paper bag thing, just as Mom suggested. I have never told her that she was right, and might not. So irritating that at 41 my parents still know more than I do. I carried paper bags around with me for a month. In my car, my purse, backpacks, to the beach. Yep. i was a brown-paper-bag-lady. I think I used them twice in the whole thing. Kinda hard to breath into one, one handed, while holding a cigarette, changing the radio station, and driving through a tunnel. I'm kidding of course. I used both hands and drove with my knees.

Also, there's this humming thing. Apparently it affects the vagus (vagal?) nerve. Turns out that that nerve is connected to your heart and lungs and all kinds of important stuff. Also turns out that bac affects it. Ignominious and I happened on it, and shared many jokes about growling, then TracyA came on with info about the nerve and since then I found a study. Yes, my life does revolve around bac and MWO. Now I'm tapped out and must run. But growl away. Ignominious used the analogy that it was like a dog protecting her pups. Or maybe he said it wasn't like that? I can't remember. Just growl or hum deep in your throat. I know, I know. The best part about it was that it made me literally laugh because it was so effin' ridiculous.

Whatever decisions you make, use your rational brain. (it's in there!) Remember it's just medicine, you are putting yourself through chemotherapy. (really, which is lol funny, isn't it?) and you need rest and good care.
:l
(thanks, but i'm no angel, thank goodness. Just a (formerly) drunk woman.)