Addiction Now Defined As Brain Disorder, Not Behavioral Issue!

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Addiction Now Defined As Brain Disorder, Not Behavioral Issue!

Otter;1164414 wrote: Alcoholism is a shortage of a brain chemical called GHB or gammahydroxybutyric acid. That chemical is produced in the body to calm down your brain when stressed. If you cannot produce the chemical or there is something wrong with your brain that it does not calm down, then you just remain stressed.

Alcohol does the same thing as GHB. It calms down the brain...puts you to sleep if you take enough.

Baclofen is a man made version (analogue) of GHB so it calms the brain and you don't then feel like drinking.

What is being said is that alcoholism is a brain chemical imbalance which Baclofen can correct. A bit like having an iron deficiency or Vitamin B deficiency. Just take a man made supplement... in this case Baclofen.

Your unsubstantiated, though well informed and intentioned, opinion, my friend.

[mario]

Addiction Now Defined As Brain Disorder, Not Behavioral Issue!

Ok thanks ne.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Addiction Now Defined As Brain Disorder, Not Behavioral Issue!

Sure Mario! I'll post it in General later.

[Otter]

Addiction Now Defined As Brain Disorder, Not Behavioral Issue!

Ne, the article you posted refers to this being a brain disorder, a neurological disorder and that this has resulted from 20 years of research.

I don't know what research they are referring to as the article does not go into any great depth. I don't think that, with greater investigation, you are going to find that there is some second line of research which identifies the underlying brain disorder as coming from some other part of the brain.

I accept that the stuff about GHB and Baclofen is my addition. The theory behind baclofen use is, according to Ameisen, that there is a "functional" or "quantitative" disorder of the systems of the brain involving Gaba B. I am not a scientist and I don't have the book in front of me but that means there is something wrong with the brain itself or some chemical shortage. Ameisen's theory is that there is a shortage of Gaba B which is supplemented/corrected with Baclofen.

If you do go to your doctor and just say, "this is a physical illness, look at this" I don't think you will get very far. Since you are taking Baclofen, you are proceeding on the premise that you have a treatable physical illness, a brain disorder or chemical imbalance that you are correcting with Baclofen.

There is a lot of research going on at the moment into anxiety, autism, addiction, all proceeding on the basis that these are physical brain disorders. Psychiatry is starting to take a back seat generally to neurology and this has happened largely because of brain imaging which developed in the 1990's and allows us to see inside the brain.

My view is that, if you "join all the dots" you will get the big picture, which is that the brain disorder is one of the amygdala and limbic regions of the brain. These areas are either damaged or there is a chemical imbalance of GHB. Baclofen can be used to treat these illnesses which like autism, form a spectrum whereby they manifest themselves in all sorts of different behaviour which, fundamentally, is aimed at quelling a deep seated, biological anxiety. These behaviours include repetitive activities, compulsive disorders, addictions all of which are a biproduct of this type of illness.

Back in the 1960's doctors handed out valium like it was candy. It was something of a wonder drug but its addictive properties were not fully recognized. It is not unusual for a drug to become widely used for a wide rage of issues. Back then it was used for "neurosis" which the AMA eventually decided was not an "illness" at all. That did not make this type of anxiety disappear. Now we can see that this underlying anxiety, which we all have to a degree, is a real illness and we can see how to treat it with a drug which is not addictive. That is the potential of Baclofen and the research into drugs like Arbaclofen and perhaps other derivatives.

The link to the aciduria illness was just something which shows that there are biological illnesses which relate to this part of the brain and chemical shortages or neurological deficits. I was not, and I think I made that clear, saying that this was the same thing, however, if some people have a genetically passed illness to do with this area of the brain which is treatable with Baclofen (as autism is treated by Arbaclofen) then the disease or illness is in the same area as this disease and maybe it has some similar characteristics. Who know? As I said, I was just wondering if there were any illnesses associated with a GABA B deficiency...and there are.

The interesting thing is that, as Cass says, there are going to be implications well beyond the medical world when this theory becomes more widespread, and accepted, which it will. I am sure some tricky lawyers in the US are going to use this theory in cases where their clients are charged with serious offences, ie., murder, when they were so drunk they could not possibly know what they were doing, and they were arguably suffering from a brain disorder which made it impossible for them to control their drinkin. If I were facing the death penalty and could make that arguement, I would! On the flip side, if there is a treatment, then it is arguable that one should know about it and have access to it to avoid being in that situation in the first place, if one has such a severe addiction. At the moment, drunkenness is not a defence, even if one is completely out of one's mind...because...alcoholism is considered to be a result of an exercise of will and also because it would be bad policy to let people get drunk and get away with crimes.

[mario]

Addiction Now Defined As Brain Disorder, Not Behavioral Issue!

Otter/Ne if what is being said is fact and true,Where am I and others like me who have stopped for years drinking alcohol ? have i still got this primary disease ? or is it cured, will it come back ?.


Very interested & curious about this thank you.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Addiction Now Defined As Brain Disorder, Not Behavioral Issue!

Lots and lots of people, the majority in fact, that this applies to that are not being treated medicinally and prefer it that way. The article pertains to them too. I won't get in to baclofen or OA here, but suffice it to say I don't agree with you.
The GABA connection is fascinating, but limited. And bac, well, bac is like using a sledgehammer for a sewing pin, in my very humble opinion.

I don't think drunkenness will ever be an excuse, except perhaps a lame one in personal disagreements, for wrong doing. In fact, if there is a disorder and one is not being treated for it, or IS being treated for it with the only treatment available, and continues to drink, well, the ramifications don't change much! Yer still goin' to jail!

mario;1164493 wrote: Otter/Ne if what is being said is fact and true,Where am I and others like me who have stopped for years drinking alcohol ? have i still got this primary disease ? or is it cured, will it come back ?.
Very interested & curious about this thank you.

It IS very interesting, isn't it? I can't imagine what that means exactly Mario, for you personally. I suppose you've arrested the brain dysfunction. Or learned tools around it, if you will. Just as we all do, even if we take medication to deal with the underlying chemical imbalance.
Similar, maybe, to people who have diabetes.* It's a chemical imbalance, right? Lots of people take medication to control it, and most have to. But some are able to change their habits, their diet, some very fundamental things, in order to get control of it. They get healthy, but they remain vigilant in order to stay healthy.
I think it's probably pretty similar to what you do.
Another analogy is a learning disorder. Lots and lots of people take medications for that. Most of them don't work very well, or precisely, and certainly not for everyone. Those that don't take the meds still have a learning disorder, but they learn habits or ways around it. Or simply avoid the problem. You won't find many dyslexic book editors, is my guess. Then again, i'm sure there are some and they learn how to read differently because of their dyslexia... Maybe even in ways that make them better at editing.

Also, and finally, (whew) the brain is extremely malleable. We don't have any idea, really, how it does this, but it definitely rewires itself. Lots of examples of this in stroke victims.
The coolest examples, imo, can be found in the studies done on people who meditate. With their thoughts they have rewired their brains in identifiable and really positive ways. Granted, they approach it with discipline and practice, much like what you do I suspect!
What do YOU think about the article and the impact (or not) it has on your sobriety?


(*It was recently pointed out to me that diabetes is a poor analogy, but I'll stick with it for this purpose.)

[mario]

Addiction Now Defined As Brain Disorder, Not Behavioral Issue!

I have to try and get my head around this Ne, But it is very very interesting.

;-)

[mario]

Addiction Now Defined As Brain Disorder, Not Behavioral Issue!

Would that mean everybody who is an alcoholic or everybody who are/is heavydrinkers/bingedrinkers has this disease ?




Have to go now night ne.

[Cassander]

Addiction Now Defined As Brain Disorder, Not Behavioral Issue!

Ne/Neva Eva;1164533 wrote:

Similar, maybe, to people who have diabetes.* It's a chemical imbalance, right? Lots of people take medication to control it, and most have to. But some are able to change their habits, their diet, some very fundamental things, in order to get control of it. They get healthy, but they remain vigilant in order to stay healthy. I think it's probably pretty similar to what you do....
(*It was recently pointed out to me that diabetes is a poor analogy, but I'll stick with it for this purpose.)

Ne, I'm not being rigorously scientific when I suggest this (please don't hang me for it), but a really hopeful analogy might be to chemotherapy, which actually eliminates the cancer and the patient becomes cancer free.

Wouldn't it be nice to stand up in an AA meeting and honestly be able to say, "Hi, I'm Cass. I am no longer an alchoholic. I'm cured."

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Addiction Now Defined As Brain Disorder, Not Behavioral Issue!

mario;1164546 wrote: Would that mean everybody who is an alcoholic or everybody who are/is heavydrinkers/bingedrinkers has this disease ?
Have to go now night ne.

I don't know that anyone has the answer to that, Mario. I certainly don't. I imagine there is a spectrum. I imagine that this is simply the tip of the iceberg and that the next generation will bring some really exciting science on the order of magnitude of cancer treatments, and an understanding of diabetes and lots more. Which is to say, that in 30 years there will still be forums dedicated to what-to-do and what it all means! :H

I'm glad of that, in a way. I've met a lot of really great people here.

G'Night! Sleep tight, Mario.
:l

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Addiction Now Defined As Brain Disorder, Not Behavioral Issue!

Cassander;1164580 wrote: Ne, I'm not being rigorously scientific when I suggest this (please don't hang me for it), but a really hopeful analogy might be to chemotherapy, which actually eliminates the cancer and the patient becomes cancer free.

Wouldn't it be nice to stand up in an AA meeting and honestly be able to say, "Hi, I'm Cass. I am no longer an alchoholic. I'm cured."

Somehow I missed this, Cass.

Yeah, it would be. But that's not very fair, or nice, or accurate. Lots of people can't take baclofen. Many more won't. Some don't need to.

I AM in the habit of jumping all over people when it comes to this stuff, aren't I? I don't mean to be mean, or even antagonistic. (Except when I DO mean to be antagonistic, of course.)
It is a good analogy. A very good one and I used it today on Bottlestopper's thread, because what we are doing is chemotherapy. (chemical therapy) But I imagine it's the early days of chemo...Right? When all hell broke loose in the body and mind and the efficacy of it included wishing on a wing and a prayer.
Bac is a lot less toxic, and hugely more beneficial in so many ways, it's unreal. I'm actually completely on board with Otter that I think this medication is going to break open the study of brain chemistry/balance in HUGE ways. The recent research blows me away. (All research does, actually. :H It's fascinating what and how they study things.)

I will someday be cured, of that I have no doubt. But I'm not yet. The malignant cells linger... And Cass, for all of Dr. L's assurance and the positive stuff I read about bac, there is an awful lot we don't know... It's fun (now) figuring it all out.
I've got my response to the other thread in a word doc and will finish it this week. THAT is a fascinating thread. Thanks again for it. (Also, will you update us? About where you are and where your son is? 'cause how are you??? --It's a roller coaster for my fam. Generalities are fine. You can use my thread, if you want. Or any of 'em. I'll see it. )
and :l

[Doggygirl]

Addiction Now Defined As Brain Disorder, Not Behavioral Issue!

Cassander;1164580 wrote: Wouldn't it be nice to stand up in an AA meeting and honestly be able to say, "Hi, I'm Cass. I am no longer an alchoholic. I'm cured."

That's an interesting question. I have no idea what to really make of this, but my personal reaction today is "it doesn't matter." (if I'm "cured.") I guess for right now anyway, I'm happy where I am so being able to say whether or not I'm cured seems irrelevant. I don't drink, and don't want to. My disease only causes problems for me and others if I drink. Since I don't - doesn't matter.

Sort of off topic but thought I would throw it out there. Maybe I'm an oddball and other people long to be cured. I used to have thoughts like that but those seem far behind me today. Who knows though what tomorrow will bring....

More babble for sure!

DG

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Addiction Now Defined As Brain Disorder, Not Behavioral Issue!

Doggygirl;1164608 wrote: ... being able to say whether or not I'm cured seems irrelevant. I don't drink, and don't want to. My disease only causes problems for me and others if I drink. Since I don't - doesn't matter.

DG

Yep. But then we digress into what all that means for us individually...

I know that you look into all of the options for helping people with this disease, DG. That's what's profound about where your thoughts and actions are. Also that is what is profound about the new definition. It won't change anything in this moment. But it can change the way we perceive ourselves, and that is HUGE. And it will eventually change the treatment protocols. Some of the current ones doom people, as you know.

Turn the tables on that--If baclofen were the ONLY answer, the only recovery program, how many people would suffer and die because they can't take it?

Traditional approaches to recovery (the steps and behavioral modification) will have to change and adapt, just as the medical community and the medicines will have to. It is a fact of life. Things change.
It's already happening, as you have so eloquently pointed out. This definition will help create new definitions. It's very exciting.

[Doggygirl]

Addiction Now Defined As Brain Disorder, Not Behavioral Issue!

It is very exciting, that's for sure!

DG

[mario]

Addiction Now Defined As Brain Disorder, Not Behavioral Issue!

What this means for me personally is how out of all my family i became the alcoholic one, While all my family are heavy drinkers none of them have actually fell over the ledge........ yet. I did spectacularly and have always be trying to get around why me,

But then i am thinking here this disease here must be exploding in our young people as alcoholism/problem drinking is on the rise here in Ireland, Anyway we will wait & see what the follow ups are.

Just a note I still dont ever want to drink again nor do i have any cravings to do so and am delighted that i have found my way out my way.:-)