Questions

[MrsQ]

I am married to an alcoholic, who has successfully taken baclofen. I realise that everyone who has taken this drug sees amazing results and gets very excited about it. I understand that everyone wants to spread the word, see more people being reached with information about how it works and how well it works. While this is all happening people get very hyped up, emotions run high, conspiracy theories are born (and a lot of good is also done). I am sure those of you passionate about spreading the word reach a lot of people and I am right behind you on making that happen. Well done.

Undoubtedly addiction seems to be very strongly linked with other brain disorders in that it can be treated with medication. However I want to talk about what baclofen and the other drugs that treat addiction don't do. This in no way knocks the real and lasting results found in these drugs - its to open up conversation on what else is necessary to really find a cure? Peace? a solution? I'm not sure what you'd call it.

Pre baclofen my husband was a nightmare. He has never been a particularly pleasant drunk. His behaviour has often been very deviant (in as many ways as you can think), he's dishonest, manipulative, physically destructive (though never violent) and verbally aggressive. Often unremorseful and usually very keen to blame whatever or whoever can be found to justify his behaviour. And to make matters worse most of the time didn't even remember what he'd done.

Post baclofen I had a husband who never got drunk. This continued for a few months until one day he went out and got completely wrecked. This horrified him and it made me feel very uneasy. This happened once or twice. Then stopped for a while. Then started again. Now the status quo is that every Friday he goes out and gets drunk. Pre baclofen lets say he was 120% drunk, post baclofen i'd say he comes home about 85% drunk. It?s very drunk. Not tipsy or more than tipsy or drunk. Its quite a bit more past being drunk. Not absolutely pass out drunk anymore though. The very unfortunate thing is that if you are not very pleasant at 120% you are also not very pleasant at 85%. If pre baclofen you were an arsehole when you drank and got past the point of really being in control of your behaviour, then post baclofen you are still going to be an arsehole. I don't think baclofen changes the way alcohol affects your brain if you carry on drinking it.

Now this last Friday we had a huge fight when he got home. It involved a large amount of unreasonable grumpiness on my part. I asked him to sleep in the spare room as he stank of booze. And i think i probably told him to do this and probably in a not very nice tone. I hate sleeping next to him when he's pissed. It?s multilayered. It stinks like a rotting compost heap, I look at him snoring and every night I've had to put up with this for the last 7 years comes flooding back and I want him as far away from me as possible. Not because he's compromising the smell of neroli and lavender on my pillow, but because of everything his drinking has come to represent to me. So Friday morphed into a gigantic argument where walls and cupboards were punched and he ended up dislocating his finger on one hand. Our 2 year old came through sobbing and terrified. Was I to blame for this? Well actually, given that I now understand my husband post baclofen at 85% is really no different to the creature pre baclofen at 120%, yes I am to blame for frightening my child and getting into an arugment.

Now just to give you a little bit information. He doesn?t see anything particularly wrong with Friday. He thinks his drinking is definitely getting better. I disagree, but then again I am involved in this situation and I sometimes wonder if I'm a bit like Pavlov's dog. Do I see him drunk and does it just trigger the same response in me because of our history together? I don?t think his drinking is getting better. I do think Friday was a problem. I don?t think baclofen can fix this problem.

After speaking with him this week end, and over the last few months I have seen very similar behaviour to the pre baclofen person. Complete justification on what he does, that interfering with his drinking is just an attempt to undermine his having fun time, that he is 'working on it' , though he can?t really say how, it must just be accepted. The normal channels to deal with psychological behaviour problems or whatever are shrugged off or delayed upon. Therapy is now an option, but after having decided that he would go about 2 and a half months ago he's been once and has made no attempt to go again.

Havin said that he is a wonderful person and I love him. I know he's trying hard in his own way. I know he wants to fix this. I know he wants to be a normal person having a few drinks. I know he loves us. I know I dont know it all and I dont know how hard its been for him. I've been very focused on how very hard its been for me. The thing is i'm tired of waiting now. I want the drunkeness to stop. Forever. Is that unfair? I dont even know anymore.

I'm going to cut to the chase here. Alcoholism is more than a chemical problem. Not sure what though. But baclofen is not going to cure you. It?s not even going to stop you from getting pissed. Its not going to turn you into a nice drunk. If the only way you related to the world was when you were drunk, you will still battle to engage with life on a meaningful level. If the only way you had fun/relaxed/calmed down/spent time with friends was to get pissed then you'll probably still have all those trigger points. It will allow you the opportunity to fix yourself. You will have the headspace and enough sober days to give yourself a chance. There won?t be a silver bullet though. You won?t have an epiphany on your 5000th pill. You will still have to do all the hard work. And in my humble opinion, and I realise its just one person's opinion, many people should just simply give up drinking altogether. At least for as long as it takes to start living a life without booze at the bottom end of every social event or mood or emotion. Baclofen makes the possibility of living life without booze tolerable. Or this is what i see and what i'm told. I honestly think though that the healing only starts after baclofen. If you are committed and want it enough.

your thoughts are all welcome. I would like to know what you think the ultimate answer is.

[SlipperyPete]

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Hi MrsQ.

I read your whole post, and it's definitely a different perspective to what I deal with as an alkie. My first thought was that you should get involved with Al-Anon, so you have a support system for people like you who have to put up with us.

My second thought was, from what I read, that you put up with his drinking for 7 years, but are you now just starting to flip on him? This is obviously a very complicated disease and of course this all takes time, but it seems like your patience suddenly ran out after he started getting drunk on Fridays. This is probably not the case, but it's what I gathered.

What you said that I think is very true is that "the healing only starts after baclofen." You nailed it on the head with that one. You also mentioned there not being a silver bullet. Again, I agree with that, however my question is who came up with the idea of there being a 'silver bullet,' you or your husband? If it was your husband, then I'd say he's off base and needs to try again, but if it was you, then maybe you're hoping for too much too soon.

Baclofen and sobriety and all that is a lot to handle, and I dunno if I could've done it without this website, so maybe guide him this way. In any case, I still recommend you getting involved with Al-Anon.

[MrsQ]

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Thanks Pete. What do you think is required post baclofen to heal youself? What works for you? Is it AA or therapy or just time?

[MrsQ]

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To answer your questions, he used to think of it as a silver bullet I think he's much more realistic now. In response to the other question I think I need to see more effort on the behavioral side of recovery and less emphasis on baclofen. I want to know from other people what supported them in getting better once baclofen had kicked in and given them the choice.

[SlipperyPete]

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I think benefits could be seen with AA and therapy, however I'm still trying to figure out the best course of action myself. I think honesty, introspection, talking to others, and time is a good start. Exercise is of course great, but that question you posed is very deep IMO so I'm excited to hear what the Senior Members have to say.

[MrsQ]

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I too am very interested to hear what they have to say.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

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Hi, Mrs. Q.
I applaud your effort to find a greater understanding of what your husband is going through.

I have given what you posted about a lot of thought. Most of us have. I can't address the specifics of what you refer to, but I can offer some of the guesses and conclusions I've come to.

I started, not by accident, with trying to understand my own disease in order to get rid of it once and for all. The greatest lesson I learned, in all of my reading and research, is that recovery is a process. There is absolutely nothing, no pill or group, that is going to extinguish what alcohol has done and continues to do, in a short amount of time.

Alcohol, and alcoholism, touches every facet of my life. Some of the fundamental processes in my brain, the very chemicals that tell me when I'm having a good time, worked only when I was drinking. It's going to take a while for those to work on their own.
My social life and friendships, while not defined by my drunkenness, certainly reflect an expectation of it.
My default reaction when stressed or anxious is to find release in the bottle.

There's more! But I won't bore you, and I don't want you to think I'm excusing my own behavior when I drink or when I'm drunk.

It is not, in many cases and in my opinion, about being completely abstinent in order to find solutions. This is a fallacy perpetuated by almost every program of recovery we have. The reason it's a fallacy is because the vast majority of us can't do it. By vast majority I mean almost all. I don't know of a single alcoholic/addict who is able to abstain without trying repeatedly. In most recovery programs this is deemed failure and one must start again, as though the process has not already started.
One of the gifts of this forum, and of baclofen, is that we understand that addiction is chronic and pervasive. Any attempt to stop being enslaved is a move in the direction of freedom. The chances for success increase exponentially if one continues to look for solutions and a way out.

It sounds as though you are both working on communicating. That is the greatest struggle my husband and I have after years of ignoring/denying/suffering silently. I hope you've shared with him what you've shared with us.

I hope that the counseling continues! Communication is the crux. And understanding that what has been a way of life, a defining tenet for each of us, can't be undone in mere months. Simply put, I agree with you that Pavlov was on to something! I wonder how long it took those dogs to unlearn the response to the bell? I wonder if every time the toddler rang the bell on his tricycle the dog didn't drool a bit. For a long time.

Hang in there, Mrs. Q. I'm pretty sure the process will be well worth it for both of you.

:l
Ne

[Ne/Neva Eva]

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MrsQ;1166936 wrote: What do you think is required post baclofen to heal youself? What works for you? Is it AA or therapy or just time?

That is up to each of us individually. Input from our loved ones helps, of course.

Mrs. Q, this is the only space that your husband has where he can share what he is going through. I'm a little worried about where this is going. I hope you can understand my concern.

[MrsQ]

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I realise I am walking into dangerous terrritory here and the majority of people here are addicts. Everyone is bound to feel a little sensitive. However the best way to really understand a disease which is definately characterised by denial is from the input of those around you who are affected. As we all experience denial on some level of something, I am sure every person alive can relate.

I also feel a lot of emphasis is put on the taking the baclofen and baclofen's journey to acknowledgement my medical community. I want to hear from those of you who feel they have successfully moved on after addiction what helped. A post just below mine is of someone who has been AF for 2 years. It does exist.

I am looking for a deeper dialogue on what really happens post baclofen. Of course you are right it is an individual experience for everyone. However there must be tried and tested methods that work better than others. And who better to tell me than people on this forum.

[Guest]

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There is a lot more to recovery than taking a pill, the first time I mentioned this I was shot down in flames - but baclofen/nal/campral/antabuse doesn't undo the years of hurt, and doesn't put words in our mouths or teach us how to be different in our approach. Sure these meds can help for instance Baclofen can take a lot of the anxiety away, thus leading to a better approach to situations -but it doesn't fix it automatically.

I've got loads of things to sort out in my life, being in control of my alcohol intake was just one initial step.

[Guitarista]

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Hi Mrs. Q and welcome.

I'm sorry to hear of your, and your husbands struggle. His abuse when drinking may not be physical, or violent towards you or your young one, but it is abuse, emotional abuse, and your daughter particularly is suffering that abuse. In Australia, that emotional sort of abuse in front of a child is now illegal. My thought's, since you asked, are that hubby should go back to the basics. That is, remove alcohol from the situation completely, and stop drinking. No having a couple on a friday night, or even once a month. No. Stop. Stop the madness. There is no 'moderation' with drinking for most of us, and this we can see here in your husbands case. It's a hard road to be sure, we know that here, as do you, but we all have to decide what we want to do in the face of irrefutable evidence, eventually. The irrefutable evidence that some folk just cannot drink safely, and if they want to experience quality life, quality times with family, and actual memories, well, alcohol needs to be removed from the equation totally. Then we must rebuild our lives, our THINKING, our routines. We must be pro-active in taking back our lives, and we must take ACTION. It's life or death for many of us, and with respect, it sounds like it's a matter of life or death for your husband. However, it is only HE who can make that decision. You can provide some option's, idea's, resources, love, and encouragement, but HE, must choose his path and take action. He can start by removing booze from his life completely, because only then can the healing begin. The healing of our bodies, our minds, our souls, our pride, respect for other's, respect from other's, and respect for ourselves. And this, the freedom from alcohol addiction, is the best feeling in the world.

He can do it.

Thanks for sharing such a personal journey here, and best wishes to you and your family.

[Murphyx]

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Oh God, that holier than thou, my way or the highway, attitude makes my skin crawl. Guitarista, thank God yours isn't the only way.

Mrs Q, talk to your husband. You say you actually want the input of others here, but yet you plaster his story all over your posts. Obviously you want him to see it and react to it. Talk to your husband.

[Guitarista]

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Murphyx;1167006 wrote: Oh God, that holier than thou, my way or the highway, attitude makes my skin crawl. Guitarista, thank God yours isn't the only way.

Mrs Q, talk to your husband. You say you actually want the input of others here, but yet you plaster his story all over your posts. Obviously you want him to see it and react to it. Talk to your husband.

It's a long road for all of us Murph, to be sure. And when booze becomes a problem for us, removing it from our lives, whatever way folks make that happen, is a great first step to freedom.

You know your truth. Go for it, and nail it.

Best wishes on your journey.

(I'll be available for online poker later if you're up for it. )

[MrsQ]

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OMG, this is turning into a bun fight. Does it always get like this? What is the point of discussing anything if you dont give examples. Why are so many people personalising my questions. They are very valid questions. You all take a drug that doesnt entirely work. So what now?


What i'm saying here is that baclofen doesnt sort out the issue. I thought it might. It doesnt. As there are very few people who have taken this drug, where else am I going to find out how everyone else deals with this. This is the only place, nowhere else seems to exist. So i'm giving my story, I'm asking for how you all deal with it. What else am i meant to do? As the baclofen crowd seem to feel quite elite as being pioneers in new ways of drug recovery, surely you are then the people to offer advice on what happens afterwards? Or does it end with baclofen? Take the pill and back into the world to fumble along like the rest of the alchies and addicts. Come on that is a pretty empty solution.

I'm genuinely feeling quite depressed about the whole baclofen and drinking scenario. I cant get any answers at home. I cant get any answers from doctors. So if you have any, then give them to me. If not, I accept that you are as clueless to really solving this situation as the rest of us.

I want someone to answer who has got on top of this. I'm not interested in your own private politics on this site. I really dont care. It bores me. I want some clarity and some real concrete advice.

[tiptronic_ct]

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MrsQ;1166970 wrote: I realise I am walking into dangerous terrritory here and the majority of people here are addicts. Everyone is bound to feel a little sensitive. However the best way to really understand a disease which is definately characterised by denial is from the input of those around you who are affected. As we all experience denial on some level of something, I am sure every person alive can relate.

I also feel a lot of emphasis is put on the taking the baclofen and baclofen's journey to acknowledgement my medical community. I want to hear from those of you who feel they have successfully moved on after addiction what helped. A post just below mine is of someone who has been AF for 2 years. It does exist.

I am looking for a deeper dialogue on what really happens post baclofen. Of course you are right it is an individual experience for everyone. However there must be tried and tested methods that work better than others. And who better to tell me than people on this forum.

I'll send you a PM (private message).

And probably post an abridged version of it on this thread later.