Questions

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Questions

hmmm.
Okay.
Not sure how to deal with this now. I was going to retract the last. Now it's been quoted, and as I feared, I wasn't very clear.

I have no issue, none, with Mrs. Q. Now or ever.

(I thought that the whole thing is about modding or abstaining. Not sure who missed the point...?)

So, sorry for continuing to beat the dead pony.
Peace out, peeps.

[Sammi33]

Questions

Mrs Q,

I'm relatively new around here and steer clear of offering too many opinions until i am further down the road, but i feel strongly about some of the issues raised in your post.

You said that you don't think he is improving, and he thinks he definitely is. I think 120% to 85% is improvement. Understandably you are anxious to see more and quicker but the bac has done something. Also, he drinks on a Friday night now, was that always the case or did he drink on most or all nights before? I am not sure how long ago he started the bac and what dose he is on but it may need more time and more tweaking to get it right.

I had a similar experience with naltrexone earlier this year, with a fantastic reaction initially and then old habits came back with a vengeance. It is very disheartening and however disappointed you are i am sure that your husband feels it too if his goal was total abstinence. Your husband doesn't want to live with this disease any more than you do.

Also, this is my personal experience but i suspect it applies to a lot of us, as much as you may feel you can't help it, shouting and fighting will make it worse not better. In my experience shouting at people makes them defensive and is not at all productive, it won't make him change. Ashamed as i am to admit it when i am consumed by cravings for alcohol my partner is angry at me for drinking it makes me defiant, but when he is on my team working with me, i am more open about the problem and we get better results. The guilt and shame when i am "in trouble" for drinking makes me drink, not stop, and has lead to some of my worst benders.

Hoping my thoughts are not offensive and can help in some way.

Sammi x

[Guest]

Questions

Sammi33;1167268 wrote: Mrs Q,

I'm relatively new around here and steer clear of offering too many opinions until i am further down the road, but i feel strongly about some of the issues raised in your post.

You said that you don't think he is improving, and he thinks he definitely is. I think 120% to 85% is improvement. Understandably you are anxious to see more and quicker but the bac has done something. Also, he drinks on a Friday night now, was that always the case or did he drink on most or all nights before? I am not sure how long ago he started the bac and what dose he is on but it may need more time and more tweaking to get it right.

I had a similar experience with naltrexone earlier this year, with a fantastic reaction initially and then old habits came back with a vengeance. It is very disheartening and however disappointed you are i am sure that your husband feels it too if his goal was total abstinence. Your husband doesn't want to live with this disease any more than you do.

Also, this is my personal experience but i suspect it applies to a lot of us, as much as you may feel you can't help it, shouting and fighting will make it worse not better. In my experience shouting at people makes them defensive and is not at all productive, it won't make him change. Ashamed as i am to admit it when i am consumed by cravings for alcohol my partner is angry at me for drinking it makes me defiant, but when he is on my team working with me, i am more open about the problem and we get better results. The guilt and shame when i am "in trouble" for drinking makes me drink, not stop, and has lead to some of my worst benders.

Hoping my thoughts are not offensive and can help in some way.

Sammi x

Old habits often to resurface with Naltrexone, it's part of the process towards regaining control.

Anyway back to the topic one reason I stopped posting much here was because I felt I'd put some sort of lid on the problem, but didn't know where to go to next. I still have a problem, it's just that Nal limits the damage and means my life is liveable. It's not fixed me by a long way, and I do often feel I am living in denial. I'm still not dealing with the problem and am in no-mans land.

Going to re read the OP because I'd like to comment on that.

[Guest]

Questions

OP read properly now.

I think I understand a bit more now, basically a pill does not fix life and I'd agree with this. I still exhibit certain behaviours, and still have the same arguments with myself that I had when I was drinking uncontrollably. Naltrexone or Baclofen won't fix it, and my repeated return to drinking - even with nal does threaten to take me right back each time. The occasions with one drink are no problems but I can feel my thoughts turn in the build up to a drink, as well as during. Doesn't feel great either.

I have various focuses in my life including physical training, it's not fixing me so far though!

Personally I'm in limbo and I'd hazard a guess a lot of others who have used various meds to get sober are in the same place too.

[MrsQ]

Questions

Thanks everyone for you responses. This will be my last post. I will respond to all the people who PM?d me via that channel.

First up I?ve got to say this site is filled with a lot of angst and hysteria. I find it sad that so many people need to send private messages, some of whom clearly say they don?t want to be subjected to an onslaught by doing it on the PUBLIC ANONYMOUS forum. Or has it become a club? Only smart casual if you walk down these stairs and reserved entrance. It undermines the whole principal on which a support group forum is based. I had no desire for my husband?s identity to be known. He came home with a big grin on his face. It didn?t bother him, it bothers you. Those of you who enjoy a bit of shit stirring and scandal are the ones who have brought to light he?s a member. Shame on you. Its none of your business and what good do you think it will do. It just adds an interesting and pointless bit of scandal and sensational bullshit, to what I might say for me is the most serious topic in my life at the moment. Stop it. You are embarrassing yourselves and don?t do any justice to what is really happening here. It?s a bunch of drunks trying to sort themselves out. Stick to the point. You digress and your digressions are not illuminating.

On that last note, let?s talk about who can comment and who has a right to an opinion on addiction. I can honestly say, without a shadow of a doubt, the people around an addict suffer way more than they do. Not to say being an addict doesn?t come with its serious short falls, but really people in the throes of addiction don?t live in the real world. So everyone else tends to run backwards and forwards around them trying to sort it out in whatever way they see fit. Not to mention you get to share a part of your life with someone who you can?t trust, respect or depend on. If you are not very romantic and see relationships as built of many blocks (which culminate and together we call love) you will understand you end up living in ruin. The cornerstones are gone.

Someone voiced a concern that this site should not be visited by spouses of those people on it.
"Mrs. Q, this is the only space that your husband has where he can share what he is going through. I'm a little worried about where this is going. I hope you can understand my concern."
What forum do we have? The other people. The people who don?t laugh at the jokes about how bad it gets. The ones who don?t dwell in the inner sanctum of this website. Addicts don?t like to be real about what is happening. In fact they don?t have a problem; you just have a problem with them. Ergo, its your responsibility to sort it out, not the addict. So, really I think to get a whole picture of addiction all the stakeholders involved need to be present to give their experience of the situation.


"I can't imagine the circumstances in which it is okay to give advice to someone about something so personal based on one post. I can't imagine what it would be like if an angry spouse walked in to any other form of recovery group and insisted on answers. I can't imagine how words like child abuse and divorce are useful in this situation."

The question was simple. Bac doesn?t do the job, it just helps. So then what? It is ok to reply to such a straight forward question. And with respect, divorce and child abuse and a whole host of other stuff get discussed a lot in rehab and AA and other groups. I personally know a few people who only sobered up because their kids got confiscated by welfare. And I know a few people who got divorced because of drink. If you don?t think those are pretty frequent topics in addiction you?ve glossed over them.

"Once that haze of booze goes away then the work on your husband's personality traits can begin in earnest. Something prompted your husband to turn to alcohol in an abusive way. Once he figures out what that is then he can address it. And if he does not think that he has any issues except drinking...well, all you can do is share what you feel and hope he will be willing to take some steps to meet your needs."

Thank you, this is more along the lines of what I was looking for - What happens post bac. Some people seemed to have missed this in the hope that there was another agenda. I am getting from a lot of you, from the first guy who wrote and all the way through the replies that a lot of personal work needs to be done in a professional context. Obviously you can?t force someone, but it seems to be considered helpful and necessary. Thank you also for the toolbox advice. The people who shared being sober. The people who think 85% is better than 120%. Everyone who shared from the heart really has a valid point.

"I did it for health reasons, as well as my family. I didnt start out looking for abstinance, was just looking to mod. I get what your husband says about trying to control him - that is the drink talking - I have said it before as well. I guess the switch for me made me so indifferent to alcohol that I decided it was best for me and my marriage to abstain. I knew the hold it had on me and didnt want to take the chance of going down that road again. We did go to marriage councelling but in the end - I guess I wanted the abstinance the most and I know that my spouse would be very upset if I picked up the drink again. If your husband truly wants to have this under control then my suggestion is to keep going with baclofen. The picture will be easier to see without the fog of alchohol clouding his judgement. I would have given up my spouse for AL in my darkest hours... luckily it didnt come to that. Different tools work better for different people - just sharing what worked for me."

I get from a lot of people that they don?t want to abstain as it means conceding defeat in some way. Its personal pride, obtuse stubbornness. Really if you read this guys quote, what did he lose and how defeated do you think he feels? I don?t think he?s lost anything. I don?t think his life got smaller or boring. He just moved on. As someone said, life beckoned. There is a very easy solution to drinking. If you take away the cravings and you no longer NEED to drink ? you are chemically sound and whole. But drink, if you do, is still a big problem. Then you stop.

So there you go guys. Go nuts and shred it to pieces. Or for those of you who seem comfortable having opinions contrary to mine without going punk, I hope you all enjoy hammering it out with each other. Thanks once again for everyone who took the time to share from the heart. I?m not going to write again. It?s got too heated already and I think I might do better in therapy or a support group.

And just for the record, I?ve vomited into the rose garden on numerous occasions myself. My parted panties have been sucked into and broken a Jacuzzi while entertaining more than one fella. And quite a lot more. I?m not Mary Poppins. So don?t put this all down to some tea sipping stuck up bitch who?s too anal to get it. I do. I just think it?s time to get real. Life is beckoning.

Much love, MrsQ

[Guest]

Questions

MrsQ;1167524 wrote: Thanks everyone for you responses. This will be my last post. I will respond to all the people who PM?d me via that channel.

First up I?ve got to say this site is filled with a lot of angst and hysteria. I find it sad that so many people need to send private messages, some of whom clearly say they don?t want to be subjected to an onslaught by doing it on the PUBLIC ANONYMOUS forum. Or has it become a club? Only smart casual if you walk down these stairs and reserved entrance. It undermines the whole principal on which a support group forum is based. I had no desire for my husband?s identity to be known. He came home with a big grin on his face. It didn?t bother him, it bothers you. Those of you who enjoy a bit of shit stirring and scandal are the ones who have brought to light he?s a member. Shame on you. Its none of your business and what good do you think it will do. It just adds an interesting and pointless bit of scandal and sensational bullshit, to what I might say for me is the most serious topic in my life at the moment. Stop it. You are embarrassing yourselves and don?t do any justice to what is really happening here. It?s a bunch of drunks trying to sort themselves out. Stick to the point. You digress and your digressions are not illuminating.

On that last note, let?s talk about who can comment and who has a right to an opinion on addiction. I can honestly say, without a shadow of a doubt, the people around an addict suffer way more than they do. Not to say being an addict doesn?t come with its serious short falls, but really people in the throes of addiction don?t live in the real world. So everyone else tends to run backwards and forwards around them trying to sort it out in whatever way they see fit. Not to mention you get to share a part of your life with someone who you can?t trust, respect or depend on. If you are not very romantic and see relationships as built of many blocks (which culminate and together we call love) you will understand you end up living in ruin. The cornerstones are gone.

Someone voiced a concern that this site should not be visited by spouses of those people on it.
"Mrs. Q, this is the only space that your husband has where he can share what he is going through. I'm a little worried about where this is going. I hope you can understand my concern."
What forum do we have? The other people. The people who don?t laugh at the jokes about how bad it gets. The ones who don?t dwell in the inner sanctum of this website. Addicts don?t like to be real about what is happening. In fact they don?t have a problem; you just have a problem with them. Ergo, its your responsibility to sort it out, not the addict. So, really I think to get a whole picture of addiction all the stakeholders involved need to be present to give their experience of the situation.


"I can't imagine the circumstances in which it is okay to give advice to someone about something so personal based on one post. I can't imagine what it would be like if an angry spouse walked in to any other form of recovery group and insisted on answers. I can't imagine how words like child abuse and divorce are useful in this situation."

The question was simple. Bac doesn?t do the job, it just helps. So then what? It is ok to reply to such a straight forward question. And with respect, divorce and child abuse and a whole host of other stuff get discussed a lot in rehab and AA and other groups. I personally know a few people who only sobered up because their kids got confiscated by welfare. And I know a few people who got divorced because of drink. If you don?t think those are pretty frequent topics in addiction you?ve glossed over them.

"Once that haze of booze goes away then the work on your husband's personality traits can begin in earnest. Something prompted your husband to turn to alcohol in an abusive way. Once he figures out what that is then he can address it. And if he does not think that he has any issues except drinking...well, all you can do is share what you feel and hope he will be willing to take some steps to meet your needs."

Thank you, this is more along the lines of what I was looking for - What happens post bac. Some people seemed to have missed this in the hope that there was another agenda. I am getting from a lot of you, from the first guy who wrote and all the way through the replies that a lot of personal work needs to be done in a professional context. Obviously you can?t force someone, but it seems to be considered helpful and necessary. Thank you also for the toolbox advice. The people who shared being sober. The people who think 85% is better than 120%. Everyone who shared from the heart really has a valid point.

"I did it for health reasons, as well as my family. I didnt start out looking for abstinance, was just looking to mod. I get what your husband says about trying to control him - that is the drink talking - I have said it before as well. I guess the switch for me made me so indifferent to alcohol that I decided it was best for me and my marriage to abstain. I knew the hold it had on me and didnt want to take the chance of going down that road again. We did go to marriage councelling but in the end - I guess I wanted the abstinance the most and I know that my spouse would be very upset if I picked up the drink again. If your husband truly wants to have this under control then my suggestion is to keep going with baclofen. The picture will be easier to see without the fog of alchohol clouding his judgement. I would have given up my spouse for AL in my darkest hours... luckily it didnt come to that. Different tools work better for different people - just sharing what worked for me."

I get from a lot of people that they don?t want to abstain as it means conceding defeat in some way. Its personal pride, obtuse stubbornness. Really if you read this guys quote, what did he lose and how defeated do you think he feels? I don?t think he?s lost anything. I don?t think his life got smaller or boring. He just moved on. As someone said, life beckoned. There is a very easy solution to drinking. If you take away the cravings and you no longer NEED to drink ? you are chemically sound and whole. But drink, if you do, is still a big problem. Then you stop.

So there you go guys. Go nuts and shred it to pieces. Or for those of you who seem comfortable having opinions contrary to mine without going punk, I hope you all enjoy hammering it out with each other. Thanks once again for everyone who took the time to share from the heart. I?m not going to write again. It?s got too heated already and I think I might do better in therapy or a support group.

And just for the record, I?ve vomited into the rose garden on numerous occasions myself. My parted panties have been sucked into and broken a Jacuzzi while entertaining more than one fella. And quite a lot more. I?m not Mary Poppins. So don?t put this all down to some tea sipping stuck up bitch who?s too anal to get it. I do. I just think it?s time to get real. Life is beckoning.

Much love, MrsQ
Wow, lots to think about and I personally agree with much of it. I've already said I feel uncomfortable still drinking - even if it's in some sort of 'controlled' way.

I know my family and friends have suffered through my drinking, in all sorts of ways and I have thought about it most days. Not in a guilty way, but trying to understand how awful it has been for them.

[Guitarista]

Questions

Good post Mrs. Q.

Stick around here. It really is a great and magical place mainly, but only if you reckon you'll find the site helpful. There is a whole universe of other threads and people around here. 4000 or so members i believe, so come on and get yourself involved. So, to your original query. (Sorry we got diverted)

'The question was simple. Bac doesn?t do the job, it just helps. So then what?'

The 'then what' question. And many folk here often get the 'then what's' or 'what now's' after 30, 60, 90 days AF (alcohol free). In our 'Toolbox' thread, link posted above, there is an excellent section called 'Gratitude vs. Deprivation' thinking. Read it. It is obvious and basic to some, but not so to many other's. It was my thinking, not my drinking that was my problem. We must get a good period of clarity of mind, clear thinking, to forge ahead and rebuild our lives. If your husband can get a few weeks, months, better still 1 year AF under his belt, he will begin to see himself. Basic and obvious stuff maybe, but stripping it all back to basics is where you start. Basic's? Stop drinking firstly. See your doctor as a first port of call. If that doc is hopeless, find a good one. We must do whatever we need to do to remove the grog, and then stay off it. Basics. How do we do that? Whatever you think might work. Try everything. What works for one, may not work at all for another. See a doctor. Check out rehab options. This site, home de-tox, buddha, running, swimming, meds, desert island. It doesn't matter. Start from day 1. Small steps. One foot in front of the other. Take action. Do. Get.a.plan. If this plan is not working, tweak it, and customise it. It is a long road. We took a while to get in this mess, we will take a little while to get out of it, and for our bodies and minds to re-wire and repair. This is why i say basics. First things first. Remove the grog. Millions before us have done it and it is possible and achievable.

So then what?

After we've stopped drinking and got booze out of our system and work on re-nourishing our precious mind's and bodies again, we work on what? Our thinking. Yep, obvious and basic, but there really is no way around this, or any quick fix. We have to do the hard yards, but it doesn't have to feel hard. Every step forward, tiny step forward is positive. It is progression. Whether we use meds or jesus, or a combination, it doesn't matter. We will be left with who we are. And we need to prepare for this person, for better or for worse, but usually for better. How we respond to our new found sobriety is crucial. Our THINKING is the key. What Gboy? I said, OUR THINKING IS THE KEY. Be cool and accepting of our new (real) selves, and make sure there's plenty of positive ammunition in our mental, emotional, and spiritual (whatever that means or doesn't mean to you doodyhead) toolbox. We must modify and change where necessary, our thinking. What then? Keep putting one foot in front of the other and look after your thought's. Keep going, keep searching, and options present themselves. It's a hard road, but you've just got to keep on going, and you can! Solutions are found. Options will present themselves. When? Who feckin know's, just keep putting one foot in front of the other. Basics! That can save a life.

NB. The above basics are thought's, not meds. I am hoping to highlight to you the importance of getting our thinking on track. Gratitude, not deprivation thinking. Think it. Know it. What then? I can tell you. What then? Freedom Mrs....... Freedom.

Do you have any support for yourself Q? Seek some out maybe. There is an international support group called 'GROW' which began in the UK in the 60's. Usually support for family of folks with mental health issues, but alcohol and related issues could come under that. Also as has been mentioned earlier, 'Al anon' which you may know is a support group for families of alcoholics. This site is also a much valued support to many, many people.

Best wishes on your journey.

G-bloke.

[Guest]

Questions

G-bloke I think we've also forgotten Mrs Q's point about those around addicts, how they are affected. Over recent years it's only finally started to trickle through into my consciousness how I've affected family and friends. There were also times when I was completely out of control and was abusive to partners, boyfriends and people just doing their jobs such as the authorities. All throughout this I maintained that it was all about me, and how hard done to I was. It would be wrong for me to waltz about thinking "It's ok now - I'm not drinking destructively anymore so you lot should just forgive and forget".

Mrs Q from her post is really struggling with this one, especially since her husband is still effectively getting drunk - though simply not as bad as before. No wonder she is at the end of her tether with it all, she's put up with cr@p for a long time all associated with alcohol intake so sure enough husband comes home drunk and she's running for the hills. Natural reaction.

I'd guess best thing to do would be for them to agree an AF period, where they can talk properly about their individual issues - get some counselling and support externally, recognise trigger points.

I'm still in denial because I think I enjoy the few controlled drinks I do have. In truth they make me feel tired, and physically and mentally crap.

[Guitarista]

Questions

Hiya UK.

You actually sound like you are making progress in your own journey re the not enjoying the controlled drinks? Maybe soon you'll just give the stuff away....

Yes, your point about the folks/partners/family/friends who are in an addicts life is always an important one. Thank dog for the internet. Googling support groups is a way to start. If we're located in cities or bigger towns, i think we'd find support groups out there, somewhere, in obscurity often, which is why we must dig deep and ask, ask, ask. Community health centres, Doctors, Google, trusted workmates, dolemates, anywhere

[Guitarista]

Questions

Hiya UK.

You actually sound like you are making progress in your own journey re the not enjoying the controlled drinks? Maybe soon you'll just give the stuff away....

Yes, your point about the folks/partners/family/friends who are in an addicts life is always an important one. Thank dog for the internet. Googling support groups is a way to start. If we're located in cities or bigger towns, i think we'd find support groups out there, somewhere, in obscurity often, which is why we must dig deep and ask, ask, ask. Community health centres, doctors, hospitals, google, trusted workmates, dolemates, anywhere. It is a hard road, and it starts with a plan. And anything is possible.

Oh yeah. And keep talkin'!

[redhead77]

Questions

Ne/Neva Eva;1167187 wrote: All due respect, and I'm not saying this is the way to go, but I didn't have to use the toolbox to get sober. I had to take medication.

I can't imagine the circumstances in which it is okay to give advice to someone about something so personal based on one post. I can't imagine what it would be like if an angry spouse walked in to any other form of recovery group and insisted on answers. I can't imagine how words like child abuse and divorce are useful in this situation.

What I can imagine is a place where people speak about their own experiences. Where people offer encouragement and understanding. Without subjecting anyone to a particular plan or ideology that may or may not work. That would be counterproductive, wouldn't it? It might even be harmful.

Mrs. Q, if you return here, I want you to know that there are many, many answers to the questions you posed. We are all trying to figure those things out. There is an absolute guarantee that there is not one recovery solution that works for the majority of people here. That's the beauty of the place. There is something for everyone. Some things work better than others. And there are tools to be sure. The tools are useful and wise. But they are certainly no guarantee of freedom from the disease. Quite the contrary.

Much love and respect,
Ne

Ne, you are 100% right in this post. And while I stand by my response, I don't think I should have responded at all. I should have been more in tune to your earlier message.

MrsQ, you have every right to feel angry, frusterated, and any gamut of emotion you may feel regarding this. Due to the delicate nature of the situation, I'm not sure this is the place to discuss it. At least on this particular forum. You mentioned people bringing their problems to AA. It is true, but in AA it is from the addict's perspective. Even in open meetings, the spouse wouldn't really be seeking advice on this. There are other groups just for family members. I believe you already recognize this as you stated you may seek a support group yourself. I do hope and wish you all the best in trying to sort this out.

This will be my last post here. I sense there are number of bruised egos and maybe worse from this.

[gotta stop]

Questions

Mrs Q,
I can only imagine how hard it is for our loved ones to have to sit and watch us destroy our lives and have a negative impact on those that chose to stand by us. You have as much right to be here as anyone else. There is a section on this forum entitled "Family Members affected by drinking", so you dont need to feel pushed away. I will answer any question you have to ask. I have been where your husband is, I know what you are going through. Avoid the drama here - get the answers you need.