How quickly can I go down

[SillyStuff]

How quickly can I go down

It is not right to say that baclofen does not cause apnea. It does. It causes a lot of things. I have the handbook on backlofen and it says that the breathing problems are one of the worst problems. It says that breathing problems are one of the biggest reasons that people have to stop taking it. I havn't had to stop and probably won't have to. But it is a problem.

[bottlestopper]

How quickly can I go down

Sillystuff - have you had breathing problems? I am still permanently bunged up after antibiotics, claritin, all sorts, I feel like |I have something blocking my throat I have got tablets for reflux, nothing works. I have this thing going on in my eustachian tube that just opens and closes all the time when I am trying to sleep. I am stilll not getting more than 2 or 3 hours of sleep due to the apnea and having awful dreams and weird experiences (cant explain it).

I think I am going to have to go down to 100 today, everyone says that the SE's subside, but with me they just dont seem to be doing. The depression is also awful, I can feel no joy in anything. So sorry, but I dont want to stop the bac because it is really helping with the drinking, but the anxiety from all the SE's is making things much worse.

When I was on low doses, I was fine, sleeping really well, no depression. If I go back down will that return, or have a built up a tolerance now. I am so confused with all of this.

[Murphyx]

How quickly can I go down

SillyStuff;1170406 wrote: I have the handbook on backlofen

[Murphyx]

How quickly can I go down

bottlestopper;1170501 wrote:
When I was on low doses, I was fine, sleeping really well, no depression. If I go back down will that return, or have a built up a tolerance now. I am so confused with all of this.

I don't know why you're confused, it's quite simple. If you start on a very low dose and slowly build up to a higher dose, you'll achieve a measure of indifference and probably with low level side effects. If you manically ramp up your dose, you will get to the point of indifference quicker but you'll suffer much greater side effects. This has been the case for the vast majority of bac users, you included.

I hope your experiment will serve as a warning to others.

You've already identified that route as the way forward and there's no reason why it shouldn't work. And no you can't build a tolerance to bac. To it's side effects, yes. To the positive anti-craving effects, no.

Baclofen doesn't cause depression. Extreme side effects cause depression. Stopping drinking, when you've been doing so for a long time to self-treat depression, will allow it to return.

[SillyStuff]

How quickly can I go down

That sounds awful. I searched for the throat thing. Does it feel like your throat is swelling? On baclofen side effects, it says that it is an allergic reaction. The breathing stuff is also listed as "severe" side effects. Also depression is in the list. Just search for baclofen side affects and you could see for yourself. I never took as much baclofen as you are taking. I don't have the handbook with me but I think it said it can cause depression too. I'll look when I get home, if it ever stops raining so I can go home. But not sleeping would make a person feel terrible too. I think that it's always smart to listen to your body when it's trying to tell you something. Other people don't live inside your body, so they cannot know what it is saying to you.

[bottlestopper]

How quickly can I go down

Hi guys and thanks for the advice on all fronts.

First of all, I dont know if I am missing something here, but I dont feel that I have done an experiment at all. I wanted to get to indifference over an 8 week period, but at only one time did I push it on the advice of one of the senior members here (well intentioned and it could have worked - who knows), I went up from 140 to 180 and regretted it almost immediately within two days the SE's were intolerable and I went straight back down.

However, before that I was increasing 20 every 5 to 7 days as Dr L titration states, had had little side effects until 120 and that is when the apnea, depression, anxiety started. Before that, I had very reduced anxiety, slept like a baby, some brain fog and somnolence, but tolerablish.

Since I hit 120 and stopped drinking at the same time, that is when things started to get difficult that is about 3 1/2 weeks ago and whether I have gone up or down, the SE's are still there. I went back down to 140 diminished a little bit, so after 7 days I went up to 160 thinking if i kept going up i would hit a level where the apnea, breathing etc started to get better, but no that was terrible. So I then over a week went down to 120 where I have now been for a week or so. During the day my SE's are tolerable, although I am a little lack lustre and weepy, feel a bit depressed and anxiety is more than it was, but a lot of this is down to the lack of sleep. At night is when it all goes pear shape, I am still having the apnea, but not as often, but I am also having weird nightmare things but I am still awake, I cant really explain it but very frightening, that along with the apnea feeling like I am choking, means that the nights are a very scarey place.

When I wrote my original post this morning I had just woken up and was feeling very low after another terrible night, but each day in the cold light of day I feel much better. I am a little bit worried about going back to work next week with such little sleep, but hey ho, I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

My question still is, if the SE's get better with time etc, why has the breathing apnea thing been going on now for 3 weeks, will i eventually get used to it. if so, do i stay at this level change it. That is what I am confused about.

I have been told by my french doc to go to my doc in the uk and get some sleep tests done for the apnea. However, if it is the muscle relaxing effects of baclofen that are causing the throat to relax and therefore the apnea, I probably need to tell them about the baclofen, which they would then probably tell me to stop it. Catch 22 here. Am I making sense or waffling again!!

Also if I tell my English doc about the baclofen and alcohol, I can kiss goodbye to my career. So that is not an option.

If I go down, will I get to a level where the apnea ceases and then can I titrate up even slower than Dr L prescribes perhaps 10mg per week? Or will the muscle relaxant properties mean that it just returns. These are all the things I am confused about. Please bear with me, but in my tired, sad condition at the moment, I am seeming very needy, but I dont know where else to shout for help. :thanks:

[gotta stop]

How quickly can I go down

Bottle,
I can only imagine the stress this is causing you and I agree with Silly - the others do not know what you are feeling. Unforunately in my opinion, bac has created the issue with sleep apnea and I dont thing reducing your dosage will help much. I reduced my bac to nil and still suffer sleep apnea - maybe not as bad now but doesnt just go away in a couple of days. I could be wrong. I am not an expert nor do I pretend to be. I am only speaking from personal eperience. As far as depression and night terror - part may be caused bu lack of sleep and part may be caused by the bac - nights are always lonlier and scarier - especially when you are the only one awake. If I were you, I would taper down - slowly - and see if things get better. Keep going until you feel at peace. Like you said - you still have to get up and go to work. Keep in touch - dont stop posting and at the end of the day, listen to your body - it knows. We can only try to support.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

How quickly can I go down

gotta stop;1170713 wrote: Bottle,
I can only imagine the stress this is causing you and I agree with Silly - the others do not know what you are feeling. Unforunately in my opinion, bac has created the issue with sleep apnea and I dont thing reducing your dosage will help much. I reduced my bac to nil and still suffer sleep apnea - maybe not as bad now but doesnt just go away in a couple of days. I could be wrong. I am not an expert nor do I pretend to be. I am only speaking from personal eperience. As far as depression and night terror - part may be caused bu lack of sleep and part may be caused by the bac - nights are always lonlier and scarier - especially when you are the only one awake. If I were you, I would taper down - slowly - and see if things get better. Keep going until you feel at peace. Like you said - you still have to get up and go to work. Keep in touch - dont stop posting and at the end of the day, listen to your body - it knows. We can only try to support.

hmmm. You know about opinions, right?
Silly, which bac handbook are you referring to? I'm afraid you're going to have to be a bit specific because if it's the one I suspect there is quite a bit of suspect science in there. Lots of opinion and conjecture, and not much fact.

Gottastop, if you reduced your bac to nil and you still had apnea, I'm guessing the apnea is unrelated to the bac. Also, please do not presume who has experienced what, as I consider night terrors and extreme anxiety during titration a specialty. I earned the badge, anyway, and lived to indifference. Now I can freely give suggestions about it, fw that's worth! :H

Cinders, there was a period of time that we assumed that apnea and bac went hand in hand. I really don't think that's the case. Meaning, I don't think bac causes apnea. If one has apnea, it is very likely that it will contribute to discomfort in the middle of the night for several reasons.
I'm really pretty sure that if the muscle relaxant affects/effects of bac extended to the throat/lungs as much as we thought they did, doctors would definitely not be prescribing bac for people with already compromised health. Ya' know? A lot of spasticity patients have mobility problems, which in itself leads to some respiratory difficulties. Again, NOT A DOC. NOT A MEDICO. Just trying to suss it all out, get to the bottom line, and help some folks find the goal.

Bottlestopper, I hear ya' honey. Sorry I've been AWOL. Damn storm. Anyway, I'd like to know what you are doing, specifically, to manage the problems you're dealing with.
It sounds like you've got the bac sort of sorted. The breathing a bit sorted? And the cold is gone? The valerian is helping (a bit?) with sleep?

Are you participating on other threads? Reading about SEs? (Lordy, avoid Cinders'! :H (sort of) Her's are the stuff made of nightmares. Hope you're doing well Cinders!)

So. What're you doing to manage the night terror?
What're you doing to manage the sleeplessness?

I think you'll be aces when you start school. Honestly. It'll help to be busy. That said, you've got to avoid freaking out. Which means you need tools that work for you. Everyone needs these and everyone has these. What'd you do in the past? Pretty sure you can use the same ones. Bac is your friend. Not your enemy.

If there is a goddess of cable internet connections in Virginia, I'm praying to her. Pretty sure it's to no avail, since the cable for the cable is in the basement which is still under 5 feet of smelly fetid water. ugh and sigh.

Bottlestopper, sister, if there is one thing I know, it's that you got this.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

How quickly can I go down

btw, I ask these things, or suggest them, because I think they helped me. Not because it matters to me one way or another if someone else decides not to use them.

And I challenge thoughts that I think are harmful, destructive or simply a misunderstanding. Sometimes I find I'm wrong. That sucks, but it's worth it if it clears up the stuff that might make it harder for someone, ya' know?

[bottlestopper]

How quickly can I go down

Hi Ne

Welcome back. Would be great to skype when you have a minute, although I will be travelling all day tomorrow and wont be online until wednesday night.

When i first gottastop message, I was crying so much I couldnt stop. Had a terrible evening with hubbie, who is so dissapointed that our summer has been so awful because I have been so ill, not wanted to do anything and been so down and unhappy. He was so fed up and basically I felt so guilty for putting him through this. It has been an awful summer for us and I always kept hanging on to the fact that if bac did it miracles it would be worth it. However, I went down to 100 today to try and see if I can stop the apnea and the night terrors, and get some much needed sleep before I go back to work in less than a week.That was when I realised that I am now on the same dose that I was on more or less at the start of the holidays and that I havent got very far at all. I am now drinking again, not as much granted by a long way but I am drinking again, and now I have the apnea, night terrors and the anxiety is back, so I am worse than I was when I started. Apart from one thing, I have found that I do have a stop button. I havent hit the switch, but I can much easier say no. If I could just stay like this but get rid of the SE I would probably be able to cope, but the thought that I may have to stop bac to get rid of this and still may have the apnea frightens the shit out of me, because then it has all been for nothing.

I cant allow that to happen, bac has changed my life some of it has been awful, I mean truly awful, but I can see that it helps with the drinking. I just cant accept that this is the end of the road, that it has all been for nothing. I just cant, cant, cant. I have tried everything else, there is nowhere else to go.

However, I dont know what to do from here. Where do I go, what do I do, stay the same, go down, go up. What?

I havent a clue what to do to help with the night terrors. I have been taking some xanax in the day to help with the anxiety which it does for a while, but I darent take it at night in case it makes the apnea worse, so the night times are just awful. Any advice on this would be very much appreciated. Along with a titration schedule advice too.

Thanks for listening, yet again. I am such a whinger at the moment. I will give you all loads of laughter when I get through this one way or the other, I promise!!!:thanks:

[SillyStuff]

How quickly can I go down

I have the Baclofen Handbook. I can?t find it at the moment but I think I lent it to someone. It is written by a doctor. If you think that you are more knowledgeable than someone who has been through medical school and you have not been through medical school, then I probably don?t have much to say to you anyway.

I know what night terrors are too. When I first started baclofen I felt great. When I got my own prescription and was supposed to get up to 80, my life fell apart. The apnea was terrible. When I finally did get to sleep, I had terrible dreams and woke up yelling so loud that I scared my dogs and woke myself up. I think that I was so tired from not sleeping that I fell too far into sleep and when I woke up, I still could not think straight. Sometimes there were no bad dreams and I just woke up very, very afraid and thought that there was someone in my house. It got so bad that I loaded my shotgun and put it beside my bed. That scared me because I am not the kind of person who keeps a loaded gun laying around. It got so bad that I broke my toe one night while trying to run to my bedroom door to lock it because I was pretty sure that something very bad was just the other side of it. If you think that you are an anxiety specialist, and you do not have a loaded shotgun by your bed and a broken toe, you don?t know as much as me. I don?t consider myself an expert.

I went down on the baclofen after I broke my toe. I figured that life is pretty bad when being awake feels almost as bad as a bad dream. The apnea went away, but not right away. The days got better too. I started to sleep normally without the choking for breath apnea stuff. I did not have apnea before and I do not have it now. I am told that I snore, but I might have even before baclofen. I am pretty sure that my one dog snores louder than me anyway.

Bottlestopper, you could just go down for now until you start to feel better. You could feel how you are doing and then think about it all again when all systems are go. I have to be my own best friend and trust my body because no one else is in here but me. I haven?t had a drink yet and I take at the most three pills per day. Most days I take two, some days just one and some days I just forget all about it. I do feel it when I forget. But I help myself by doing other things to help me feel good. Everyone has to make a living but when I?m not, I am helping myself to feel good even if I?m not really in the mood to feel good. After work I am never in the mood to feel good. I try to trick myself when I?m not in the mood to feel good. I pretend that I am in the mood and I do whatever I would do if I did feel good. After a little while, I?m not pretending anymore. It works. I do other things too, and I don?t do things that I know will upset me or put my brain in a dark place. It has worked so far for me. Maybe it help you a little too to just josh your brain. Brains can be tricky. Sometimes I have to be tricky back.

Anyway, I hope you feel better soon. Baclofen has been helpful to me when I take it the way my body and brain can do it. But if I thought that it was the only thing that could save me, I probably would not be here right now. It's just one thing and there are many things. There are all the things.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

How quickly can I go down

At times bac was the single worst thing that ever happened to me. There were times during those four months that it was a living hell and I wondered why I would do such a thing to myself. I couldn't imagine it ever getting better and woke up in a blind panic that it was going to last forever.
Throughout, though, I had glimpses of what it was like on the other side of the bridge. And I had several people, and an entire forum's worth of information, to help me through.

Four months. That's it. Since then, in the last seven months, I've built a life I only dreamed of. I didn't dare dream that I wouldn't have to work. That I could actually go back to school, and try to write for a living. That was a pipe dream. It was impossible that it would come true. It has. It's how I spend my days now. Trying to write. (?!???) And studying. And not working. With plenty of money in the bank. On $30k less annual income. Can't explain it, but I'm certainly grateful for it.

It was just as impossible that I would be able to Just Not Drink. I Just Don't Drink. Easy Peasy. No thought. No steps, no nothing. I just don't. Can you imagine? If you can't, then you ain't gonna get there. If you can, just keep taking the damn pills. They work.

I'll be able to skype when you can. In the meantime:

What're you doing to manage your anxiety?
What're you doing to manage the apnea?
What're you doing to coax yourself down from the edge in the middle of the night?
How are you going to get some sleep tonight?

Plenty of people with apnea in the world. They don't wake up in a blind panic with their thoughts reeling into horrid places.

Much less important: How often and when are you taking the medication? Tonight, before bed, you could take .125 of xanax. Would I begin to suggest this if I had any doubt as to whether or not you will breath? No. I would not. I am a nervous nellie. I'll leave it to you...

If you don't have a plan you will not succeed. What is your plan? Mine went something like this: "There is no way, NO WAY, I am not going to reach this goal. Tonight I will think of Redthread's dream when I wake. I will read Murphy's thread. I will PM Ignominious. I will stay in bed. I will count my breaths. I will do whatever it takes to make sure that I am healthy and whole and happy at the end of this trial."
Your fear is the only thing standing between you and the end goal. You're almost there, the number doesn't matter. Nor do the drinks. (Except they make everything feel worse if you over do it.)

There is no bogeyman, except the beast. And she's going down.
Be tough. Be strong. It's worth it. Ask RudyB. She's doing it right now.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

How quickly can I go down

Cross posted with Silly Stuff. She said it better than I could have (or rather than I did.)

With one caveat. Don't load the effin gun. Put them away. I had hallucinations, too, that there were people lurking. Mostly I was able to trust the fact that my dog would've been upset if that were the case, but I hate to think what might have happened if I had a gun. Assuming I knew which end to point where. Which is too much of an assumption.
Be safe. Listen to your body and manage your anxiety.

[bottlestopper]

How quickly can I go down

Thanks Ne. I hear you loud and clear. I am going to keep going, but I have gone back down to 100 today to see if by any chance the night terrors etc subside, but now I am scared about going back up. Can anyone suggest a titration schedule or do I just stay where I am for a while.

[bottlestopper]

How quickly can I go down

Hadnt read sillystuff reply sorry. Thanks for that it means a lot to know it wont last for ever. Going to keep going down slowly until it subsides a bit and then maybe try and go up from there. Also do other things to help with the no drinking, get hobbies etc.

Thanks guys you are great x