Getting people to believe that Baclofen isn't a placebo

[Godwhacker]

So I've been completely sober for about four months now, all because of Baclofen. It's actually quite hard for me to access my mental state as an alcoholic now- I can remember what I did, but not really what it was like. It's quite liberating, but it's also like waking up from a bad dream. After the switch, I was left wondering what the fuck just happened.

I've been trying to explain this change to several people I've met through AA and the rehab centre I went to, but none of them seem to entirely believe me. A common concern is that they they think it's just a placebo, because I ordered it online. The other is that "well, it's certainly worked for you", which is a slightly less patronising variant of just patting me on the head and saying "yes dear".

So, has anyone got any hints on how to convince people that

a) it's not a placebo and
b) if it's worked for me it can damn well work for other people.

The only real line of attack I've got so far is my experience with Acamprosate. If I were susceptible to the placebo effect, any drug prescribed would have had the same effect as Baclofen- except Acamprosate did nothing for me, and Baclofen did. Ergo, Baclofen is working, and Acamprosate failed, so Baclofen is not a placebo.

Another reason to believe that the pills are real are that I experienced side-effects on Baclofen. This means I was taking real Balcofen and not just random sugar pills. The trouble is that this undermines the first argument- maybe a placebo that gives you some side-effects is more effective than one that gives you none.

But I can honestly state that my reaction to drink is completely different to what it was four months ago. Even when I ingest the stuff it's a totally different feeling. Yet convincing other people in recovery of this is absurdly hard.

Anyway, I was thinking of heading over to AA on Thursday to catch up with people, and I just know I'm going to have this conversation with someone. Anyone got any other ideas as to how I can solve this?

[tiptronic_ct]

Getting people to believe that Baclofen isn't a placebo

It's a perpetual problem, GW

We've debated the role of the rehab industry, AA and others at length on various threads, sometimes very emotionally (to put it mildly).

Widespread recognition of baclofen's efficacy is not going to happen anytime soon, I'm afraid. It is going to take many more scientific studies before it will become an established treatment for alcoholism.

In the interim, I strongly feel that 1-on-1 interactions is the best option to spread the word. Or small groups. That allows you to present the "case" for baclofen in a well-structured way. By giving out copies of the various studies, showing people the posts on the Consolidated Baclofen Success and Sweet Success on Baclofen threads etc.

Yes, it sometimes feels like we're fighting a losing battle, but we CAN make a difference to the lives of individuals.

I've also made contact with so-called addiction practitioners at South African universities. Although the reaction has been lukewarm (same kind of responses you got), I keep feeding (spamming? :H ) them with updates as and when information is published.

[gratitude]

Getting people to believe that Baclofen isn't a placebo

people in AA are heavily invested in their belief system. you won't convince most of them. there might be a member or two that are on the fence that you could talk to and present some evidence. even if you present facts they will not believe it. the fundamentalists I mean.
in my home group all the heavies laugh.out.loud. when someone reads the promises. the part where it says science might one day accomplish this (a. pill, cure, whatever,) this drives me mad but...why am I trying to control them? why do I care. really It won't change until enough studies come out, which hasn't happened yet. and enough addiction doctors get on board.
I thought about subversively posting articles in the rooms but really why?
maybe a better way would be to start a rehab business that uses meds as well as 12 steps,therapy,exercise, whatever. bring rehabs into the 21 st century. I think sunny valentine went to a rehab like this.
anyway, a lot of this thinking is just fear based but I understand it because for most of these people to drink is to die. grat.

[Guest]

Getting people to believe that Baclofen isn't a placebo

It's hardly rocket science why people aren't convinced. Let's look at the facts;

You are taking a drug not licensed for use with alcohol in any country
You are taking several times the recommended dose of this drug
You are taking a drug known for it's strong and varied side effects- which can affect day to day life, driving and other activities etc
There haven't been many wide ranging trials to prove it works
Some anonymous people on an internet forum are claimingthey have beaten their drinking problem using it, and telling you to buy from an online pharmacy and take it at home unsupervised
There are no prescribing guidelines and no one actually really knows how the dosing works
The main reference for all of this is an autobiography written by one man

Of course people are going to be extremely sceptical. Someone comes bounding along saying "This is it, this pill will fix everyone" of course they are going to want firstly proof it works, secondly that it's safe in these quantities and that it's not going to result in half the country suffering from sleep apnea, dangerous somnelence, and gastric reflux that damages their voice.

I'd actually be more worried if people accepted it without question.

Fact is without further research it simply won't be widely accepted at all.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Getting people to believe that Baclofen isn't a placebo

Why? Because without baclofen I was doomed. And I'm in the majority. I could not stop drinking. Most of us return to drinking. (Relapse is part of the definition of addiction. I think they'll have to redefine the redefinition. :H)
Why? Because if I hadn't picked up Dr. Ameisen's book in the library I would still be a hopeless drunk.
Why? Because Gearhead is dead. And many, many more will die.
Why? Because whenever I go to the rooms I hear FEAR of the first drink. That is no way to live.
Why? Because you might, maybe, save one person from the hellish enslavement that was your life a little while ago.

That's why I do it, anyway.

After much thought, much too much thought, GW, I have come to the conclusion that it's the law of attraction. Right? But people MUST KNOW it's available. If they don't know, they can't choose it as a tool. And it's just a tool. Not the be-all and end-all. Not an uproot-civilization-cure (though it just might be...the beginning of The End of Addiction someday. But no need to go there, right?)

Just keep trying. Isn't one person worth the effort?

I was doomed. Now I'm not. Because of a book in a library. That's something.

If you happen on a way, please share. I still haven't figured it out. Ignominious once suggested taking out an ad in the paper. "Alcoholic? Call me! I have an answer!!!" :H

(btw, there are several rehabs using bac. One, in New England, when someone in the General forum asked about it, the doc said, "oh, yes, we use it. But you don't need it." She relapsed less than a week after leaving that very expensive rehabilitation center, without any medications or support to be had...and is likely facing jail time. How evil is that??? God I hate this disease AND the people who treat it.)
aaaaaaargh

[AllyB]

Getting people to believe that Baclofen isn't a placebo

There is the fact that it works due to a neuro-chemical method which is completely backed up by our knowledge of biology and neuroscience. It's no great mystery. We know that the neurochemical action of baclofen is one which fixes the neurochemical problems which occur in the brains of alcoholics. It's that simple. The only reason that it is different from any other medicine is because baclofen was developed for muscle problems at a point when we did not know enough about neurochemistry to know that it had numerous other uses.

GABA is our chief inhibitory neurotransmitter and, unusually, in humans it is directly responsible for muscle tone, which is why a GABA agonist was able to treat spacticity. However as such an important neurotransmitter it is also responsible for so much more, and we know from advanced brain scans that alcohol addiction and damaged GABA(b) receptors correlate. The fact that a medicine which was designed to repair a GABA malfunction can also repair other GABA malfunctions, is pretty straightforward. It just took a long time to work that out as initially nobody new that both problems initiated in the same part of the brain.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Getting people to believe that Baclofen isn't a placebo

Ukblonde;1171160 wrote: It's hardly rocket science why people aren't convinced. Let's look at the facts;

You are taking a drug not licensed for use with alcohol in any country
You are taking several times the recommended dose of this drug
You are taking a drug known for it's strong and varied side effects- which can affect day to day life, driving and other activities etc
There haven't been many wide ranging trials to prove it works
Some anonymous people on an internet forum are claimingthey have beaten their drinking problem using it, and telling you to buy from an online pharmacy and take it at home unsupervised
There are no prescribing guidelines and no one actually really knows how the dosing works
The main reference for all of this is an autobiography written by one man

Of course people are going to be extremely sceptical. Someone comes bounding along saying "This is it, this pill will fix everyone" of course they are going to want firstly proof it works, secondly that it's safe in these quantities and that it's not going to result in half the country suffering from sleep apnea, dangerous somnelence, and gastric reflux that damages their voice.

I'd actually be more worried if people accepted it without question.

Fact is without further research it simply won't be widely accepted at all.

It IS prescribed and widely used in most western countries. There IS a protocol, though we don't follow it here. There IS extensive research that shows it's effective. You CAN obtain it legally in most places. There IS research showing the long term safety of the medication at high doses.

The side effects you mention UK are not common, except the somnolence which need not be dangerous. And the REAL question is: Which is more dangerous? Short term high dose baclofen or long term alcoholic drinking???

And, ftr, do you know the answers to those questions about Nal? What about campral? Topiramate, a commonly prescribed medication for many, many years has a long term very dangerous, life altering, debilitating, rather common side effect: blindness. Still it's espoused. Plus, none of 'em work very well.

AAAAAARGH. Much of what you've written, UK, is simply off the mark.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Getting people to believe that Baclofen isn't a placebo

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=1sCFVkhR4wCgDOBTfrnCFy13bVUNM2fveFLEsx HxTwjoXnbOQTeSZlA6s4uxs&hl=en

BACLOFEN EFFICACY IN REDUCING ALCOHOL CRAVING AND INTAKE: A PRELIMINARY DOUBLE-BLIND RANDOMIZED CONTROLLED STUDY

SUPPRESSION OF SYMPTOMS OF ALCOHOL DEPENDENCE AND CRAVING USING HIGH-DOSE BACLOFEN

http://www.urbanfool.us/MWO/newdrug.pdf

http://www.urbanfool.us/MWO/addolorato.pdf

http://www.urbanfool.us/MWO/bacinrats123mg.pdf

http://www.urbanfool.us/MWO/maintenance.pdf

http://www.urbanfool.us/MWO/interaction.pdf

We're still missing much of the research done at the University of Pennsylvania. And much, much more. Including the very recent paper published by Dr. Chick.

just sayin

[Guest]

Getting people to believe that Baclofen isn't a placebo

Ne/Neva Eva;1171175 wrote: It IS prescribed and widely used in most western countries. There IS a protocol, though we don't follow it here. There IS extensive research that shows it's effective. You CAN obtain it legally in most places. There IS research showing the long term safety of the medication at high doses.

The side effects you mention UK are not common, except the somnolence which need not be dangerous. And the REAL question is: Which is more dangerous? Short term high dose baclofen or long term alcoholic drinking???

And, ftr, do you know the answers to those questions about Nal? What about campral? Topiramate, a commonly prescribed medication for many, many years has a long term very dangerous, life altering, debilitating, rather common side effect: blindness. Still it's espoused. Plus, none of 'em work very well.

AAAAAARGH. Much of what you've written, UK, is simply off the mark.

I am not disputing Baclofen works, just how other people will see it and yes you have hit it on the head, which is more dangerous - which is exactly the argument to put forth. Long term alcoholic drinking causes serious consequences, many more than a few SEs with baclofen.

I will repeat I did not dispute Baclofen's use - I was stating merely how outsiders will see it. I also did not say it was illegal to obtain baclofen I know you can obtain it quite legally in all sorts of places.

So is baclofen licensed for use somewhere in the world, I wasn't aware but will take it on board if it is.

Naltrexone is licensed in several countries, as is Campral. I am also quite aware of the problems with Topa but this post is about Baclofen not other meds - and I have not disputed that it works. Only that it's not been researched enough yet for it to be accepted medically.

Well if stating how outsiders will see this is off the mark, I'm sorry but I thought this post was all about that.

[tiptronic_ct]

Getting people to believe that Baclofen isn't a placebo

***Phew***

For a minute there, I thought this thread would descend into acrimony before we're on page 2.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Getting people to believe that Baclofen isn't a placebo

I know. I'm sorry. I can't help myself. But I will from now on. Thank you, UKblonde. I really, really appreciate it.
(you read it before I could edit it! Which I certainly would have. Again, apologies.)

whew.

[spiritwolf333]

Getting people to believe that Baclofen isn't a placebo

Great Post!!

I am glad that our scammer brought this thread back to light. UK makes an excellent point -in my opinion anyway. Thanks UK

Ukblonde;1171160 wrote: It's hardly rocket science why people aren't convinced. Let's look at the facts;

You are taking a drug not licensed for use with alcohol in any country
You are taking several times the recommended dose of this drug
You are taking a drug known for it's strong and varied side effects- which can affect day to day life, driving and other activities etc
There haven't been many wide ranging trials to prove it works
Some anonymous people on an internet forum are claimingthey have beaten their drinking problem using it, and telling you to buy from an online pharmacy and take it at home unsupervised
There are no prescribing guidelines and no one actually really knows how the dosing works
The main reference for all of this is an autobiography written by one man

Of course people are going to be extremely sceptical. Someone comes bounding along saying "This is it, this pill will fix everyone" of course they are going to want firstly proof it works, secondly that it's safe in these quantities and that it's not going to result in half the country suffering from sleep apnea, dangerous somnelence, and gastric reflux that damages their voice.

I'd actually be more worried if people accepted it without question.

Fact is without further research it simply won't be widely accepted at all.

[bleep]

Getting people to believe that Baclofen isn't a placebo

What a glorious day it looks to be.

[help4me]

Getting people to believe that Baclofen isn't a placebo

Hi All, I have been on HD baclofen for almost 3.5 years now. Like some of you I am proof that this drug IS a cure for drinking problems. I don't believe alcoholism is a disease. It is truly a chemical imbalance in the brain and Baclofen fixes/cures that imbalance. Yes, it does take commitment and persistence and determination. There are so many negative side effects you must be ready and willing to to get through before that rainbow comes. But it does come. It is real.

I cannot remember now what it was like over a year ago when I got so excited to have a night alone (like every other night) so I could get shitfaced drunk and go online and make an ass out of myself and Lose the respect of my family, etc. ugh.

I still take between 200-225 daily but am going to start going down by 25 each week until I feel comfortable knowing cravings still wont come back.

For those that have also found success: How low a dose have you been able to remain successful at?

Thank you for listening. I'd love to reach out to others. Feel free to say hi

[Cassander]

Getting people to believe that Baclofen isn't a placebo

Hi bleep, spirit and help

Just want to say that everytime, it seems, that I, too, am inclined to shake my head and wonder whatever, along comes another someone like help who reports finding the way out with high dose baclofen. And then, I shake my head and say, damn! baclofen works.

Congrats to you help.

Cassander