The Truth about Naltrexone

[Heavy Fuel]

The Truth about Naltrexone

Greg;1173350 wrote: I was actually speaking in support of naltrexone, and other methods, by saying we should not only focus on the negative stories. Like you, I have also seen the reports of low recovery rates in AA and rehab, and have witnessed first-hand the extremely low percentage of people who continue with AA for any length of time. At the meetings I have been to, most newcomers seemed to find it unhelpful, and therefore didn't come back regularly. I am one of those myself.

Amen. I am very sensitive to this because of personal experience. The Combine Study was published in JAMA in 2003. I reached out before then, but found nothing I could work with. I reached out after 2006. I was never told about the Sinclair Method, bac or anything else. I was told it was all my moral failings.

Now that I have reliable science, I am so excited. Soon, I will have my life back. I don't follow any of the 12 steps, but I can easily accept the 3rd, 5th, 11th, and 12 traditions of AA. I don't want to change any abstinent persons mind, but I want all of those who have suffered to stop suffering. I want our lives back. I want the stigma and torture to stop.

Can you think of any other disease a doctor would willingly give a prescription to make the symptoms worse? Alcoholism is the only one. Antabuse makes the cravings worse, but one would need to beat doctors with a flail to make them stop giving it. Second, naltrexone has a 78% chance of working, if the patient drinks. So what do most doctors prescribing the drug say? "Don't drink!!!!" Of course!!! That's the answer! Let's not look at the science, but treat this with superstition..... The only way the medical profession's treatment of us could be worse is if they bled us and broke out the leeches.

I'm off my soapbox. If I offended you, I not only apologize, but am truly sorry.

[Greg]

The Truth about Naltrexone

Heavy Fuel;1173706 wrote: I'm off my soapbox. If I offended you, I not only apologize, but am truly sorry.

No offence taken; I'm in favour of any treatment methods that can help with alcohol dependence, and glad to see anyone feel passionate about beating this illness. I spent over 20 years seeking treatment from numerous doctors, with almost no results in every case apart from an initial week of Valium-assisted detox on several occasions. I know the frustration of this, and it continues for me when I see friends of mine who are still drinking themselves to death despite having tried doctors, shrinks, alcohol counsellors, AA, CBT, detoxes, rehabs, Antabuse, Campral, normally-prescribed (non-Sinclair) naltrexone, antidepressants, etc. etc....on and on it goes for so many.

Despite having failed to gain relief personally using most of these methods, and having seen friends fail trying to use them, I would always still support someone's decision to try such methods. What doesn't work for some people can work for others.

(P.S. I did actually find Antabuse to be helpful, but only when used together with medication to reduce alcohol cravings. Antabuse allowed me to stop having silly debates inside my mind about whether to give in to drinking or not each evening. However I am also aware that it is not helpful for most alcoholics, and I had been prescribed it several times previously with zero success. Campral also seemed to be somewhat helpful to me during one spell of abstinence many years ago.)

[Greg]

The Truth about Naltrexone

Otter, I know you are trying to be helpful, and I have been interested in many of your posts here. I think one thing we all agree on is that every possible method of trying to beat alcoholism is worth trying, but that everyone will not benefit from every method.

Regarding SSRIs, I do get the point you were making, based on what you have read. The only problem is that there is more than one medical opinion on this topic, and I was concerned that others could read the negative side of the argument and decide to quit their medication. This could be dangerous for someone who is being successfully treated for depression with an SSRI. Relapse to depression could also cause relapse to alcoholism for certain individuals.

The drug textbook A Primer Of Drug Action (2010) by Robert Julien, Claire Advokat, and Josesph Comaty, which is a book I have followed for quite a few years owing to its balanced coverage of drugs, does say that SSRIs have poor outcomes in a certain sub-type of alcoholic. Overall, the authors state that "in general, the results have been inconsistent" when SSRIs have been used to treat alcohol dependence.

My own experience has included a bizarre increase in alcohol craving, after many months of abstinence, following my use of the serotonin precursor L-tryptophan. At the time I thought it was just a coincidence, or even my imagination, but I now concede it's possible the tryptophan could have been responsible. Even so, I would prefer not to deter anyone from trying it, since reaction to all drugs is individual, and many could be helped by it even though I wasn't.

Anyway, best wishes to you and everyone else here. We have a lot more in common that we have differences, in my opinion.

[missyabby1]

The Truth about Naltrexone

Hey Greg. Good post. Phew all the drugs and contradictions. It all has its place I guess. I still have an incidence where I was totally al free spending time with my grandkids....having fun and not needing to drink at all. Just breaking the cycle and not drinking because I had something healthier to do. Just sayin. It was a huge lesson for me. I have experienced the same thing before. No drugs......just a certain happiness from joy and normalness in having people around being al free. Once again, just sayin. x x

[Greg]

The Truth about Naltrexone

missyabby1;1173871 wrote: Hey Greg. Good post. Phew all the drugs and contradictions. It all has its place I guess. I still have an incidence where I was totally al free spending time with my grandkids....having fun and not needing to drink at all. Just breaking the cycle and not drinking because I had something healthier to do. Just sayin. It was a huge lesson for me. I have experienced the same thing before. No drugs......just a certain happiness from joy and normalness in having people around being al free. Once again, just sayin. x x

Yes, being happy from enjoyable activities is a goal worth chasing. I have had times like this too. I hope to be free of substances entirely one day, even just to see how things go like that for a while. I even thought of going to rehab as a way of being totally substance free, but the rehabs I have heard about have been a bit too depressing lol!!

[Greg]

The Truth about Naltrexone

Bluto;1174019 wrote: Have you tried high dose baclofen yet? I admit I am a newbie at this but it's certainly helped me stop for 11 days like nothing else. I went up to 200mg within a week and virtually no cravings and no side effects beyond what would be expected titrating so fast with fatigue

Hi Bluto, high dose baclofen is almost certainly the most effective treatment I have heard about for alcohol dependence, and I'm glad you are doing well. I did try it, but had some major problems with insomnia (which greatly worsens my depression), so I ended up using a different method of becoming abstinent. Unfortunately this "method" involved using cannabis as a direct alcohol substitute, which started producing its own problems, so now I am seeing if prescribed Valium can be effective. It has helped greatly so far, but I am not recommending it to others, as some can also find it addictive. I think a few people also find that benzodiazepines like this can actually worsen their alcohol cravings, even though it helps me.

I did use medium doses of baclofen as a way of cutting cravings for a couple of other drugs (codeine and pseudoephedrine) I was using to try and escape depression, but which just ended up being two more abused substances. Baclofen worked in this case, but attempts to go up to high doses again caused further insomnia. Should I relapse into a serious alcoholic condition however I will again try high-dose baclofen, and see if trazodone, doxylamine, or some other sedative drug can permit better sleep.

Unfortuately I have failed to gain any benefit from multiple trials of antidepressants and CBT, hence the desperate measures of trying to deal with depression...but I still hope to try one or two medications I have not yet taken.

Anyway thanks for your advice, and sorry for the overly long reply!

[SlipperyPete]

The Truth about Naltrexone

Greg,

There is a member here who is taking HDB along with Wellbutrin, which is something I want to add to my medicine cabinet. In my experience, problems with insomnia from bac went away, which is good, because Wellbutrin can make it worse. He seems to have gotten in a good rhythm with it, and is neither depressed nor tired.

I take 5-HTP for depression, but can also use it for sleep, as it is amazing. I was prescribed Klonipin for a little while to knock me out, but I don't like the idea of taking benzos if I'm trying to not drink. But then again, I've been known to love Valium a bit too much...

Risperdal I'm sure would knock you out, but if you looked at that link I put up in NE's thread, it can make you feel worse overall. I know you didn't mention Risperdal, but I just wanted to throw that out there, because many doctor's prescribe it for sleep aid.

[Greg]

The Truth about Naltrexone

Thanks Pete, I had some problems with Wellbutrin (only marketed as Zyban here) but hope to try it again with some Valium. I seem to get hyperactive/stimulant types of reactions to a huge number of drugs. The MAOIs Nardil or Parnate are something I'd also like to try, although they are said to be pretty stimulating aswell. L-tryptophan has helped me with sleep although may have caused a bit of increased alcohol cravings, but that may also have just been a coincidence.

Haven't tried risperidone yet. I do recall being told that Seroquel can also help with baclofen-induced insomnia. One of these would definitely help I'd say, but I have just been a bit wary of antipsychotics (even in low doses) due to their reputation for emotional blunting. I will put the suggestion to my doctor next time however.

[Sammi33]

The Truth about Naltrexone

Hi Greg,

I know i have mentioned this to you before so i won't drive you mad about it anymore after this.

I have been on the new AD Valdoxan and i think its at leaast worth asking your doc what he thinks about it. Your reactions to other ad's and SSRI's sound very much like mine and i am really finding this stuff is helping.

I have had one of the worst weeks of my like in terms of self loathing, feelings of hopelessness, shame etc resulting from a drinking binge. I have been suicidal, feeling like there is no way out of my addiction etc. but i haven't been depressed. This might not make sense to anyone else, but having suffered with depression since long before my first drink, and also having been depressed when everything in my life was going fantastically, i see and feel a difference between feeling sad or even suicidal because there is really bad stuff going on to feeling that crippling depression feeling. I know as i am writing this how crazy it sounds so please take it with a grain of salt, but i have just really related to a couple of things you have said so i had a feeling you might know what i mean.

Anyway, i think the new med is working, and i don't feel over stimulated. In fact you take it at night and i think it actually helps you sleep. I know very little about this but i think it helps regulate circadian rhythms and therefore helps sleep. And no side effects either. I am now slowly going up on bac so maybe i could be confusing some side effects but i am pretty sure i am not because things i am experiencing are directly related to increasing bac dose, and i took the val for a while before bac and had no side effects.

Ok, i will stop acting like a drug rep now and leave you alone x

[SlipperyPete]

The Truth about Naltrexone

Greg, I just want to reiterate that while the atypical antipsychotics Seroquel and Risperdal would help you with your sleep, I wouldn't recommend them for that because they tend to make people feel worse, due to them blocking dopamine. Plus, I don't think you'd be able to stay awake during the day, much less function!

Sammi33;1174433 wrote: This might not make sense to anyone else, but having suffered with depression since long before my first drink, and also having been depressed when everything in my life was going fantastically, i see and feel a difference between feeling sad or even suicidal because there is really bad stuff going on to feeling that crippling depression feeling.

Sammi, this makes perfect sense. I've suffered from depression and anxiety for a long time, and baclofen is the only thing that really helped with either, for me. No longer am I feeling terrible when I should be feeling good. Sometimes I feel bad because of where my disease has taken me, but at least there's a "reason" for it, not just a chemical imbalance.

[Greg]

The Truth about Naltrexone

Sammi, your post made sense to me too. My depression definitely came before my drinking, although the alcohol and knowledge of being hooked on it further contributed to it. Thanks for mentioning Valdoxan again too, as I had forgotten...memory is hopeless from 20+ years of drinking I'd say. I will ask the doctor about this, because yes it is different to other antidepressants I have tried. It affects melatonin receptors I think (reading about drugs is an obsessive hobby of mine!) so that would likely be a reason why it helps sleep.

Pete, yes it's the dopamine blocking action of antipsychotics that makes me really wary of them, although years ago I tried haloperidol (only out of curiosity) and didn't actually feel emotionally worse. Some say that quetiapine/Seroquel only blocks histamine and serotonin-2 receptors at low doses, so perhaps it could help sleep without causing emotional flatness. I did also find baclofen helpful emotionally, and still take low doses sometimes just for this reason.

Now I just have to remember to ask my doctor these things...will make a note to remind myself.

[Guest]

The Truth about Naltrexone

This thread has now had a number of posts removed from it, the issue was raised and now omitted.

Naltrexone has been around for a long time already, and in use for such time BUT just like baclofen is not it hasn't been accepted widely by the medical or recovery community.

A lot of people pass over Naltrexone through lack of info and it's a real pity because it can be pretty successful when it works. Some say my drinking wasn't that bad, I would argue that my drinking has been 'that' bad, that I had some element of control. Well that is exactly what a NHS (National Health) alcohol worker told me. He said I wasn't an alcoholic, they wouldn't offer me residential treatment, and that I should exert some of the control I had over other things in my life to alcohol. Thing is I simply could not. It's just that I could, get through a day without a drink if I had to, but put a drink in my hand and I'd be as scuppered as anyone else. There were many days when I had such terrible cravings I simply could not think or anything else, and would crumble eventually.

Last night I opened a bottle of beer, drank half, poured half away. It did not turn me on at all. Been the same for the last 4 times I'd done the same and I no longer experience any alcohol cravings. I do know that I can drink through the Nal effect if I want to(and that is one reason for my spikes - which I have learned from), but I don't want that back thank you.

I don't knock Baclofen, however Nal has a lot to offer.

Maybe there could be a joint effort to promote BOTH medications, I'd love to see more people post about Naltrexone if only to debunk the myths. I suspect a lot of successful Nal'ers are't around to report success.

I'm also not going to knock Otter but his recommendations for exercise, diet, meditation have been espoused by traditional rehabs for a while (or they were at the places I have visited). They do improve recovery however you acheive it.

[KatieSmiles]

The Truth about Naltrexone

I am an alcoholic, a heavy daily drinker with tendencies to binge drink on weekends. I always drink to blackout.

I'm certain that Naltrexone is working for me. I am taking this medication under my doctor's supervision.

I had very few side effects from the get go, a little dizziness, a few stomach cramps and that was about it. In the 4 months I have been taking it, I have blacked out twice, poured out unfinished drinks, easily had AF days, had several occasions where I stopped drinking booze and had water or some other non alcoholic beverage because I just didn't want another drink.

The dosing is easy to follow, one 50 mg pill one - two hours before drinking. The process of extinction takes several months. During those months ones drinking can be quite erratic although over time there is a slow but steady decline in the amount one drinks.

Naltrexone can be used is a tool to slow down the "alcoholic train" to a point where it is easy to jump off. Some have done just that, they got to a point where they felt that they were only drinking out of habit or that alcohol just didn't have the same appeal that it once did and they easily jumped off the train into absville.

[alexan]

The Truth about Naltrexone

Ukblonde;1174496 wrote: I do know that I can drink through the Nal effect if I want to (and that is one reason for my spikes - which I have learned from), but I don't want that back thank you.

Hi UkBlonde,
Where did you read this? Can you post links? I'm just curious because that might explain why some people inadvertently tend to drink more on Nal as opposed to what they should be doing which is actually be drinking less.
Thanks.

[Heavy Fuel]

The Truth about Naltrexone

It does explain it. The way TSM works is there is no endorphin reward for drinking. One's brain knows you are drinking, but there's no endorphins. So you drink more. If you drink long enough, some of the nal is released from the receptors and some of the endorphins reach the receptors.