Dr Ameisen: I will no longer post on MWO!

[Bruunhilde]

Dr Ameisen: I will no longer post on MWO!

TK and Otter,

Thanks for your posts. I did not feel capable of being painstaking enough to take a stand and defend it. You both did it, and I thank you. I've been feeling terrible for Dr. A due to Daze's rants.

[eight days a week]

Dr Ameisen: I will no longer post on MWO!

I've not been a regular here for a long time now, but think while Dazed might have put things very much better, and more politely, than he or she did, there were some very valid questions in there.

I also think that Dazed's tone was no less 'respectful' than the posts of many of the regular posters on here (most of whom I have been reading, on and off, since they joined).

I originally stopped posting here because of time and lack of energy to concentrate on anything other than myself.

Now I have both time and energy, and the thing that stops me coming back is the dominant tone, attitude, and language on the forum here.

It's not a very pleasant place to dip into. I'm sure it puts many people off considering meds. An incredible shame.

[missyabby1]

Dr Ameisen: I will no longer post on MWO!

(sigh) I think dazed is in the place he or she chooses to be. To describe it as "difficult", IMHO is rather patronising. It is not for us to decide whether or not it is "difficult". It is a very promoting phrase. I, for one, would find it extremely unhelpful.

Whether or not you were referring to the Uni aspect or not, which maybe you were, it is still not up to you to describe someone's predicament as difficult. To ask if it were difficult would be a total different thing.

Ne, I still have a great difficulty with you promoting "just keep taking the damn pills". I know, I know that this medication is going to be the best thing since sliced bread (an ozzie saying I think) but people have to live, they have to , in some way, keep putting the food on the table, take their kids to school, attend work , go to uni etc etc. The side effects can sometimes take these ordinary experiences to the extent where nothing feels normal. These day to day experiences of alcoholics are sometimes the only thing they have that is close to normal.

We all know what success you have had with this medication.....and I am sure we all rejoice in it..........I know I do. If I had five kids (which I don't) and couldn't get out of bed to tend to them because of taking Baclofen ......and you say, find a way to attend to the side effects stat......I would not feel too good about myself if I couldn't.

I guess, for me, if Amieson had said, hey the side effects of this drug were pretty horrendous for some, and I know he couldn't, because it was his personal experience, then it would be ok. Until the side effects are addressed, and truly acknowledged, then and only then, can you tell people to keep taking the damned pills. When the trials are done, which hopefully will be soon, and side effects are either deemed "an important part of non compliance" or can be overcome "with etc etc", can we deem this drug to be an important part of recovery.

I have always been open to baclofen, but because of a scientific mind, could not , with a clear conscience , declare it to be a drug that is not without its problems. (Which our every day to day alchie could manage).

Missy

[redhead77]

Dr Ameisen: I will no longer post on MWO!

We here in Amurrica use the term the best thing since sliced bread too. I see your point Missy, but I think we're getting away from the point too. We do learn how to cope with SEs of being drunks. Well kind of, some end up with broken marriages and relationships with their kids. Some lose their jobs and their homes. Some hate themselves so much, that they turn to suicide. Since alcoholism is chronic and progressive, the worst of it isn't always seen till later. Not often at the Uni level, although there are people who are raging so severly, that they are seeing their lives destroyed at the Uni level. Maybe dazed isn't at the point, where dealing with the SEs is worth it. Maybe for him, it is better to drink and function. It's the better of the two right now. And maybe this drug isn't his way out altogether. I don't believe this drug is for everyone. Dr Ameisen did say the side effects of this drug are pretty horrendous for some. He also said not everyone will be able to take it. If you'd like I could post the a link to the newspaper article I found it in.

When I became an alcoholic, I went from 0 to 60, very quickly. I would have lost my job, most likely lost my kids, while destroying their spirits in the process (I don't have 5, I have 3, who I raise alone). I was seriously contemplating suicide, because I couldn't live with the person I was. I thought the kids would have a better chance with me being dead.

The SEs for me were no less than horrendous. I had a hard time getting out of bed and functioning. I did learn over time to cope with them. It is no different than being a drunk in that regard, except I never woke up in the morning wondering what I did or hating myself. My kids started to trust me again. My body started to heal from the alcohol abuse. The SEs for me, could be managed with careful titrations both ways and other things. I was at the point in my drinking and my life, that this was the better alternative and it still is. Even with SEs. We all have to decide where we are and what we need. Decide what's the best alternative to get there (AA, nal, campral, bac, praying, supps), and what we're willing to deal with to get and stay there.

Some literally start this drug and have immediate success with little or no SEs. You could be that person Missy. I have a hard time understanding why someone is so focused on the SEs of this drug, when they've never even tried it.


Now this is going to be out of character for me, but we have also have a term in Amurrica called shit or get off the pot. I don't care about saying this at this point, because my level of annoyance and frustration in general with MWO, is at an all time high. What I do worry about is hurting your feelings. I also don't know if I should even be responding to this post. If it was written while you were drunk, maybe it isn't what you intended. Don't know. It is a pretty accurate assessment of how I feel. And I apologize in advance if it's hurtful.

[redhead77]

Dr Ameisen: I will no longer post on MWO!

One other thing, if you have tried the drug and I don't know about it, I apologize in advance for that too.

[missyabby1]

Dr Ameisen: I will no longer post on MWO!

Yup, I understand your post Red. Not planning to piss or get off the pot at all. Just planning to say and see things as I see them. That is how I see people being allowed to take their own path. I will not go back on what I said at all. This is a drug that seems to cause major side effects to a lot of people. I have seen few on here who say the opposite, maybe they don't post here, I don;t know. Maybe when the trials are done I will be proved wrong. I honestly don't care which or whatever. All I know is that this whole belief in a certain medication was started by one person's experience. Hardly empirical proof. I absolutely love the fact that it has been succesful for many people, but I do remember a thread started here calling for people who have had success with Baclofen to speak up.........it hardly got off the ground.

God, I wish you people could understand how I feel here. I have a sister who sits on the board of a major hospital discussing ethical trials of both medication use and new operations. So I guess you can now call me biased in a sense. I also, a long time ago, worked for a doctor who did the most unspeakable things to women, to prove his theory, of treating women for incontinence. It was totally a coveted experiment.

Honestly Red. No matter how you feel about Baclofen, it has to be rigorously trialed for those coming behind us. And , no, I will not be a part of that experiment , I feel that I can get sober without those means. And I truly believe that, after experiencing some time off the booze, without medication, just leading a sober life with a decent purpose we are not doomed or deemed to an alcoholic life.

There are many people on the other side of MWO who get sober.

Missy xx

[missyabby1]

Dr Ameisen: I will no longer post on MWO!

PS red. I don't think alcoholism is chronic or progressive. I think that is a total load of bullshit from the AA mob. There are many instances of people who stop abusing alcohol from different lifestyles and "just getting over it". Truly.

[redhead77]

Dr Ameisen: I will no longer post on MWO!

I'm out and about now so I have to make this brief. The people who usually get over it on their own, are often people with situational alcohol dependence. Like the woman whose going through a divorce for example. I believe there are different kinds of alcoholics. What about all the people I see year after year, who drink more and more, to the point of organ failure and then death? I don't care who developed the label chronic and progressive. You tell me what that would be? It sure seems chronic and progressive to me.

[Otter]

Dr Ameisen: I will no longer post on MWO!

missyabby1;1181521 wrote: Yup, I understand your post Red. Not planning to piss or get off the pot at all. Just planning to say and see things as I see them. That is how I see people being allowed to take their own path. I will not go back on what I said at all. This is a drug that seems to cause major side effects to a lot of people. I have seen few on here who say the opposite, maybe they don't post here, I don;t know. Maybe when the trials are done I will be proved wrong. I honestly don't care which or whatever. All I know is that this whole belief in a certain medication was started by one person's experience. Hardly empirical proof. I absolutely love the fact that it has been succesful for many people, but I do remember a thread started here calling for people who have had success with Baclofen to speak up.........it hardly got off the ground.

God, I wish you people could understand how I feel here. I have a sister who sits on the board of a major hospital discussing ethical trials of both medication use and new operations. So I guess you can now call me biased in a sense. I also, a long time ago, worked for a doctor who did the most unspeakable things to women, to prove his theory, of treating women for incontinence. It was totally a coveted experiment.

Honestly Red. No matter how you feel about Baclofen, it has to be rigorously trialed for those coming behind us. And , no, I will not be a part of that experiment , I feel that I can get sober without those means. And I truly believe that, after experiencing some time off the booze, without medication, just leading a sober life with a decent purpose we are not doomed or deemed to an alcoholic life.

There are many people on the other side of MWO who get sober.

Missy xx

Hmmm....

Very strange. It is all a "belief". Not empirical.

Empirical proof is "dependent on evidence or consequences that are observable by the senses. Empirical data is data that is produced by experiment or observation."

Nothing there about "double blind trials". Ameisen based what he did on experiments with animals and extrapolated the dosage to his own situation. He then published in a peer reviewed journal which is now cited in many articles about baclofen as "proof" that Baclofen does work. There have been many "empirical" studies which show that Baclofen does work.

This forum is not about doctors experimenting on people but the contrary, people finding out for themselves and "proving" to themselves that it works. They don't just "believe" they have stopped drinkilng, they have.

So, a double blind trial is going to "prove" what exactly? Probably that Baclofen is better than placebo at reducing craving. Probably more than an even bet that this will be the result. What then? People will be prescribed it, or not, depending on whether they want to put up with the side effects. Same as now, except that far more people will be doing it and tolerating side effects and far more people deciding it is not for them. Your post seems to suggest that once it is trialled then the side effects will be ok or that there won't be any side effects.

So, in the meantime, just lets tell everyone who comes here to keep drinking. I just don't see where your argument leads. People come here to get information about the treatment. They don't necessarily post. I keep seeing a figure of 1900 people who view this every day. The actual posters, like us, are relatively few. Probably we are the more attention seeking ones. A lot of people would never think to post here and I would think most who have recovered would just stop posting.

It is not a case of people recovering and that's that. Enter the poll. If you stop taking Baclofen you relapse. That is not to say it doesn't work. And that will be the same after the trials.

Here is some empirical evidence for you: http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/Baclofe...0Masson_A0.pdf Doctors helping people who have potentially terminal liver disease. I think I would choose the side effects.

And your "belief" about just staying sober, that's the answer then, is it? For the two million people who are doomed to die from this next year. They should just stop. I think you are on the wrong forum. You should be on the "Hey Presto, Alcohol Cure Forum".

Best wishes

[DrunkAndTiredInFLA]

Dr Ameisen: I will no longer post on MWO!

Perhaps the real issue is that some people are blaming Dazed, because they just can't handle being called out by the man himself. Dr. Ameisen did say PEOPLE not person. He said mentioned a FEMALE and her signature. In case you have forgotten or "missed" it, here is his EXACT quote -

"On this forum, you have people who fabricate facts. One of your members used to finish all her post with:

"I owe my life to having read "Heal Thyself" by Dr. Olivier Ameisen who got me cured." This same member now has changes her version:
"I owe my life to 300mg of baclofen."' >>>>> as typed by Dr. Ameisen.

It appears to me that people don't want to believe that it's really Dr. A, because this would mean that they would have to take responsibility for their own behavior and for upsetting someone who REALLY is trying to help. Time to take a good hard look in the mirror PEOPLE!

[DrunkAndTiredInFLA]

Dr Ameisen: I will no longer post on MWO!

Zenstyle;1178613 wrote: I stand down. I find it hard to believe that someone that important would be posting on here...
but it appears I may be wrong.

Ummmm... apologies...

Zen, he has only posted 10 times since March of 2010. I have been on other forums where "busy" people have really posted to help those that they truly wanted to help. If you really want to help and info people, as I believe Dr. Ameisen does, you are never "too busy" to check into places once in awhile.

[DrunkAndTiredInFLA]

Dr Ameisen: I will no longer post on MWO!

dazed;1180755 wrote: I don?t want to keep doing this, and this discussion is a good example of why I do not want to be an active participant here.

I have disparaged no one. Unless you are talking about Ameisen, and I don?t think I even disparaged him. I was really insistent upon an answer, and I got one, but that?s not the same thing as being degrading to someone. Who have I degraded? If you are talking about the ?advice? that I already know, it was not my intent to ?disparage? anyone. There is simply no new information, obviously since you offered none.

Congratulations on your success in college! While a 30% drop-out rate would be a conservative average in a freshman-level class, it is unheard of in upper-level classes. As you probably know, depending on your college, they are incredibly difficult to schedule as they generally are offered only once per school year if you are lucky. Some are only offered once every two years. I had to drop one, which put me right at 12 credits with no more room spare for Baclofen brain-fry. I am dependent on scholarships so taking lesser grades is not an option.

What is your major? What is your dose? I was much higher functioning drinking than I was not drinking and on 200 mg of Baclofen. I do not think you are suggesting that my experience is deviant from the norm. The posts I have read here would suggest otherwise.

As far as ?respect? for Ameisen goes, I do not feel impelled to respect him. Nothing you or anyone else could say would likely make me feel otherwise. He did what he did to save himself and made whatever profit he made from his book, which I have never read. He obviously wants to profit more. Good for him, but that does not command my respect. You and everyone else here came here hoping to somehow personally benefit. Good for you too.

As far respecting anyone else here, I do not believe that I have disrespected anyone. I think that your terse reprimand was very disrespectful. I have ignored a couple of name-calling posts from people here that were certainly disrespectful. That did not surprise me since I have read many rude things posted here, but I am not standing here DEMANDING respect.

Please think about this next question and try to envision how you see yourself and how you see this place.

Who do you think you are to demand respect from me?

As for clarity, I think that I am doing okay in that respect, whether you think so or not.

If you would like to end this exchange now, please do. I have little time for it and really no heart for it.

Dazed, I, too. am in school, and I, too, can say that I functioned better while drunk. I can barely study, because I am always falling asleep on my books, and I am only taking 90mg a day. I am on this forum at the moment, because I was falling asleep while at my book. =(

[DrunkAndTiredInFLA]

Dr Ameisen: I will no longer post on MWO!

Otter;1180931 wrote: I agree!

I also don't think what Dr. Ameisen said shows him to be either a liar or delusional. Justifiably annoyed, perhaps. What he is saying is that who are any of us here, in truth, to be giving out medical advice, particularly when it gives the impression that, for instance, 300mg a day is the answer, simpliciter with no explanation. The starting point is to read the book. He is a doctor; his self study was published in a reputable scientific journal and he is advising other doctors on prescribing Baclofen. He is in a unique position to understand the treatment professionally and personally. He is in touch with people from all over the world who are involved in this study at the highest professional and governmental level. What he was saying was that we should be trying to point people toward getting proper medical advice, which, still, is hard to get and the authoritative guide in Baclofen treatment is still his book. Saying, here, as a non medical professional, anything about dosage is actually quite mad when you think about it.

If Baclofen grows exponentially and there are, after just a few years of his book's publication, 10 or 50 thousand people using it in France alone and a government backed study there, what will it be like in another couple of years? The prediction in early news articles was that this medication will become the treatment of choice for alcoholism regardless of trials. It really is an unstoppable force. This may save millions of lives and improve the quality of lives for millions more.

Some of the comments here leave me speachless. If someone does not respect a person for initiating that, what does it say about them? Who can one respect?

As for writing a book and making money, I suppose the same criticism could be levelled at all sorts of people such as WELCOME TO MAHATMA GANDHI ONE SPOT COMPLETE INFORMATION WEBSITE and A Long Walk to Freedom: The Autobiography of Nelson Mandela: Amazon.co.uk: Nelson Mandela: Books and Barack Obama Books

Oh, and don't forget this one, In 1947 Life magazine called Albert Schweitzer, ?the greatest man in the world." He wrote books! Lots of them Albert Schweitzer: books by Albert Schweitzer @ BookFinder.com. And this lady wrote books too Books

Since when has writing a book been something to use to abuse the author? What kind of person, particularly one who is at university, would disparage someone for writing a book?

Sometimes you have to step back from this site and think about what is going on here and what role you/we are playing in all this and what kind of an impression things we say give to others, not just about ourselves, but about Baclofen as a treatment.

I think "Heal Thyself", is a very good caution to people coming here who want to call others "liars" and disparage the good things that they have done. And where are the rules about posting. I thought one of them is to stop before you post and think about what it is that you are saying before pushing the post button.

Well said Otter =)

[DrunkAndTiredInFLA]

Dr Ameisen: I will no longer post on MWO!

eight days a week;1181141 wrote: I've not been a regular here for a long time now, but think while Dazed might have put things very much better, and more politely, than he or she did, there were some very valid questions in there.

I also think that Dazed's tone was no less 'respectful' than the posts of many of the regular posters on here (most of whom I have been reading, on and off, since they joined).

I originally stopped posting here because of time and lack of energy to concentrate on anything other than myself.

Now I have both time and energy, and the thing that stops me coming back is the dominant tone, attitude, and language on the forum here.

It's not a very pleasant place to dip into. I'm sure it puts many people off considering meds. An incredible shame.

YAY @ Eight Days A Week! I concur!!! This is my first time back in almost a month, and I feel like I am back in high school. Nothing like seeing a bunch of kids ranting and ranting about a bunch of other kids ranting and raving. Aren't we all suppose to be adults? I see people bringing up issues of respect, yet, they themselves don't exactly respect others on here. Don't be the pot calling the kettle black - hypocrites!

[DrunkAndTiredInFLA]

Dr Ameisen: I will no longer post on MWO!

redhead77;1178747 wrote: This would be a question asked by a few of us. I tend to doubt it. He wouldn't be the first brilliant and eccentric personality to discover a life changing thing for society. Yes, that is the term I've decided to use for our online forum. The bottom line at least for me is, he made a life-altering discovery for the better, in my case (and many of you). For this, he deserves some semblance of respect.

Dr. A, when you said this is our battleground, I thought you said it because you understood what happens around here, more frequently than some of us would like to admit. There's some pathology in the meds threads. Many of us have issues. I am no exception when I say this. I truly wish your original last post here, was you last post...for the time being. Whatever is going on with you and your anger with us, it shouldn't have been brought here.

Dazed, I don't want to kick you when you are clearly feeling down, but the fact that you took his thread and threw a huge temper tantrum is unfortunate. You did it right after he said he wouldn't be back, demanding answers. I understand you aren't feeling well and that baclofen may not be working for you (then again, who would know if it could work. You haven't shared a thing about yourself, your dosing, what you're doing- nothing). You claim you've done all sorts of reading around here, yet if you had, you'd realize many have been greatly helped or even cured with this drug. I suggest you start your own thread with what you're doing, and what you're going through. Just like was suggested to you by Ig many posts ago. There's a wealth of information here. Maybe we could help you. And then again, maybe not. Maybe this isn't the drug of choice for your alcoholism. I know others have found this to be true. For the others, the pervasive negativity in that baclofen hasn't worked for you, is getting tiresome. You're the first to jump in the minute anyone is getting frustrated or questioning their tolerance of the SEs. And the SEs are no joke. They are very real and intolerable by many. As I've said before, I believe this may prove to be an obstacle in future baclofen studies.

Murphy, when I said he and Dr L had close personal contact in Chicago, I did mean close. Not the close you may be thinking of :H, but close enough he would have been able to see his drinking patterns, even in the evening. He was not drinking. I didn't ask if he had a drink, but he certainly wasn't drinking alcoholically.

This was Dr. A, I believe. When I hit my switch I wrote to him and personally thanked him. He wrote me back from the email in question.

Red very contradicting. In the second paragraph, you are telling Dr. A not to bring his anger to the forum. Then in the paragraph following, YOU are getting upset with Dazed. Don't preach what you don't practice!