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    Next into the pool ...

    Hi, everyone. I really appreciate this forum, as it -- plus reading Dr. Amiesen's work over the past 24 hours -- pushed me to contact my shrink, as it were, about putting me on Baclofen. She had mentioned it a number of months ago, but thanks to you plus Dr. Amiesen's second book, I finally took her up on her offer. I don't have my scrip yet, but am anxious to get it (hopefully tomorrow).

    I've been trying the Sinclair Method for about a year -- almost to the day. While it help remove my initial craving for AL, and definitely allowed me to get off the hard stuff (scotch, vodka), I never really got down below the bottle-of-wine-a-night level, and so, here I am.

    The one thing I'm trying to do is to leaven or otherwise manage / reduce my expectations about what might happen, in light of the Sinclair Method experience. What particularly attracts me is the following. About a year and a half or so ago, I was diagnosed as bipolar. This happened at age 45, and as one therapist I spoke with today said, it's not unusual for this to happen, even after seeing a parade of MD psychiatrists and therapists. I'm now on a solar system of meds (as opposed to a galaxy), and while things have evened out somewhat through a cocktail of lamotrigine, Seroquel, Gabapentin, and Ativan, I still feel on somewhat shaky ground, and clearly my drinking hasn't gone down in the way I'd like. (I did a stretch in AA in my mid-30s, but stopped after four years when I stopped identifying with other folks there as I had been a relatively high-bottom drunk, so to speak, who stopped drinking cold for four years after my first AA meeting.)

    What I began to see about a month or so ago is how my drinking and other behaviors were triggered by what I perceived to be a brain that runs too hot, and the fact that alcohol and other substances were the universal cure-all for that plus both the manic and depressive phases of my condition.

    What I really connected with in Dr. Amiesen's second book is his confirmation that dysphoria and anxiety are the drivers of these addictions, as opposed to the other way around. I've definitely been using these substances to regulate my mood, albeit often unsuccessfully. I think my shrink is great, but even she can get into the psychiatric happy talk about how I should curb certain behaviors, without necessarily exploring what's triggering those behaviors.

    When I got hold of her today to ask her to put me on to Baclofen, she did indicate that she has had good results with some of her patients, although she did note that using Baclofen for alcohol dependence is an off-label use. (Maybe that's a kind of disclaimer that physicians have to make, although I come from a family of MDs myself and actually work in healthcare, although am not a clinician.) I half expected her to say she would not let me go past 80mg per day, but she actually indicated that she's taken most of her patients to 250mg and has had them stay there, despite Dr. A's talking about the switch for him at 270 or so mg, and then titrating back down to 100 with 40 when there are certain stressors.

    I went to the pharmacy tonight, toting my very hungry three-year-old, and hoped that the prescription had been called in and filled, as I'm really anxious to get started (so anxious that I ordered a bunch today, prior to talking to my shrink, from River Pharmacy). Alas, no dice, so guess i will have to wait until tomorrow. Beyond the hoped-for reduction in my alcohol intake, I'm hoping it will also help with the chronic anxiety -- although my doc also wants me to taper off the Ativan as I titrate up on the Baclofen. So yes, am trying to temper my expectations, but after a life of hoping for a miracle cure, that's really hard.

    So hopefully my journey begins tomorrow. I appreciate what I've read on this board, and hope I'll come to befriend and enjoy your collective support. Moreover, am moved by what I've read, and hope to someday (soon) pay if forward, in 12th step-like fashion.

    #2
    Next into the pool ...

    Hi Suneelca, and welcome to the forum! You will find plenty of people here willing to give advice any time you need it, and they have the knowledge and experience with baclofen to back it up.

    I've noticed anxiety-reducing effects of baclofen even at lowish doses, and without as much of a bombed-out sedation than I get with a dose of benzodiazepines (e.g. Xanax) that gives equivalent anxiety reduction. Baclofen seems to reduce my racing thoughts, obsessive worrying, and other obsessive anxious thinking that seems to be part of my anxiety. I have often wondered if I am bipolar too, and wouldn't be surprised if I was diagnosed with it, due to my "brain running too hot" as you put it. This state alternates frequently with depression, and like you I have used alcohol for years as an attempt to regulate both states of mind. Unfortunately I have found that drinking can make all this instability worse however, maybe due to it being a very short-acting drug, and so giving the brain massively unstable GABA and glutamate activity levels (two of the neurotransmitters that alcohol strongly affects, and which largely govern the brain's overall level of activation). That's only a personal theory, but I think any substance that makes neurotransmitter activity see-saw up and down to a huge degree, on a daily basis, must be destabilizing to the brain.

    You are very fortunate to have such an understanding and open-minded doctor, although more doctors are slowly becoming aware of baclofen for alcoholism. I was lucky enough to find a similarly open minded doctor here in Australia, maybe because he specialises in addiction treatment and sees for himself how low a success rate other treatments tend to have. I have also tried AA many times, and remain interested in it as a source of sober social contact, and also because its steps focus on personal change (although I'm not really into the God part all that much).

    Good luck, and thanks for an interesting story.

    Comment


      #3
      Next into the pool ...

      The more you read the more you will discover that, like alcohol, Baclofen is a "cure all" because it treats the amygdala which seems to have a role in all behaviour. What we do is to divide types of behaviour up into categories so that manic behaviour is different from compulsive is different from anxious behaviour and so on, when really they are just different words for describing the same brain disorder.

      Welcome to the forum.
      BACLOFENISTA

      baclofenuk.com

      http://www.theendofmyaddiction.org





      Olivier Ameisen

      In addiction, suppression of symptoms should suppress the disease altogether since addiction is, as he observed, a "symptom-driven disease". Of all "anticraving medications used in animals, only one - baclofen - has the unique property of suppressing the motivation to consume cocaine, heroin, alcohol, nicotine and d-amphetamine"

      Comment


        #4
        Next into the pool ...

        Thanks, guys -- except for the fact that you're really getting my hopes up? And after not succeeding with The Sinclair Method, am really trying to manage my own expectations.

        Started with 20mg last night -- per MD's instructions. Had had my usual bottle of wine or so and a nice bowl or two of Trainwreck. Hesitated a bit with a voice in my head saying, "What lies on the other side?"

        Took it, plus a reduced dose of Ativan and usual dosages of Seroquel and Gabapentin. Very groggy this morning. Had to go to a work-related event all day -- took another 10mg this morning, and struggled at times to stay awake. Spent the day feeling both manic-y and a bit sedated. But my journey has begun, and I'm looking forward to seeing where it takes me.

        One question that I'm sure has been asked 1,000 times here -- is the sedation effect the reason why we're supposed to ladder up, as opposed to going right to, for instance, 80 mg?

        Comment


          #5
          Next into the pool ...

          And another question -- how many people here are smokers who have experienced a reduced desire to light up as a function of going to a high dose of Baclofen? Any weed partakers who can talk about any effect on the desire to smoke a bowl? Clearly there's a lot of stuff I'd like to moderate or put behind me!

          Comment


            #6
            Next into the pool ...

            Works like a charm for weed apparently (according to a few anecdotal reports around here), and at a much lower dose than alcohol. Those of us that smoke cigarettes though think that it makes that habit worse.
            :nutso: I take pride in my humility :nutso:
            :what?:
            sigpic
            Graph of My Drinking From July '09 to January '10

            Consolidated Baclofen Information Thread




            Baclofen for Alcoholism and Other Addictions
            A Forum
            Trolls need not apply

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              #7
              Next into the pool ...

              Baclofen seemed to help me with pot smoking, partly because it actually seemed to block some of the effects of pot and made it a bit pointless to smoke it! I am not smoking at all presently, although I was only a moderate user (2-3 cones per night, and none during the day). Baclofen also helped by stabilizing my emotions and anxiety, which probably made me feel less of a need to use pot as an escape. I didn't need huge doses of baclofen for this effect, only about 75 mg, which fits in with Lo0p's advice.

              By the way I wasn't drinking when I noticed these effects with pot, so it may be a bit different for someone who is still drinking. One other thing, when I did try smoking while on the baclofen, I would get a really doped out feeling most of the following day, and not really a pleasant sort of sedation either.

              Late edit .. I just noticed this old post of mine and was worrying that I had not stated that I was also taking a benzodiazepine at low-medium doses each day (most of it at night). I wasn't solely taking baclofen. I would have also been using something additional (non-benzo) for sleep at least some nights to allow myself to take less benzos and still get some sleep.

              Comment


                #8
                Next into the pool ...

                Hi Suneelca.

                Some years back I started smoking as a way of getting off the booze. It didn't work out and I ended up being high throughout the day and stoned every evening and soon descended into a rather murky world. So, I dropped the hash and took to the bottle again because it at least allowed me to operate in a legal way (hydroponic set-ups in the spare room and smuggling trips to the Netherlands can be frowned upon by the authorities). But ever since then, I had known cannabis was what I really wanted. It was always there in the back of my mind. Dope was my true love but I couldn't have her, so I settled on her less attractive sister as second best.

                Anyhoo, since baclofen, the desire to smoke has completely disappeared. I don't know if it went at the same time as the booze or before, but I suddenly realised I don't crave either. I have every reason to believe it should work the same way for you.

                Murph

                p.s. If any pigs are reading this: up yours, you'll never take me alive coppers!:H

                The unexamined life is not worth living

                Comment


                  #9
                  Next into the pool ...

                  Murphyx;1182285 wrote:
                  p.s. If any pigs are reading this: up yours, you'll never take me alive coppers!:H
                  Woah, take it easy there friend.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Next into the pool ...

                    Lumme! It's the rozzers and I's bin rumbled. :upset:

                    The unexamined life is not worth living

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Next into the pool ...

                      Coming up on the end of my second month in the pool. Quite a ride thus far:

                      - Drinking is down to two to three a night -- with occasional bumps back up to four or five. I've noticed that wine tastes like crap most of the time. Can't say I'm indifferent per se, but definitely feels like it's mostly the habit. Is having the stuff taste like crap equivalent to indifference?
                      - Stopped smoking two weeks ago. Not cold turkey per se -- re-read Alan Carr's The Easy Way to Quit Smoking, which is designed to remove the reasons why one smokes and put one in the frame of mind in which quitting becomes ridiculously easy.
                      - Still smoking weed, as it seems to moderate the worst side effects, although it too is losing its charge.
                      - I think I'm generally feeling less anxious -- my wife and I were having a real bad patch before I started on the Bac, and it's been pretty quiescent since a week after I started. I realize now how much I had been acting out based on persistent anxiety ... and now I guess I'm not.

                      The price I've paid were increasingly severe side effects. Bad somnolence, bad insomnia, constipation, etc. I had titrated up from 20 mg on September 23 to 200 by November 4, and it had gotten to the point where I was pretty much non-functional, which wasn't great, for instance, the other day, when I needed to moderate a session at a conference. No pain, no gain is one thing, but that was getting out of control. So titrated back down to 140 mg, and slept 10 hours last night with only one stretch of waking up in the middle of the night, and am feeling pretty good after four cups of coffee today.

                      So many questions for all of you. For many of you, the anxiety levels dropped, the drinking moderated or stopped. And then what? How did you put your lives back together, if they needed to be put back together? If you were lonely and disconnected, how did you reestablish those connections? Did you do therapy (have read that many of you used the calm space that the Bac helps create to work on some longstanding issues)? It's said that pleasure is not the absence of pain -- although IMHO, it's a good start! How did you move from constant worry about falling into a black pit of alcoholism and despair into the joy of a fully self-expressed and experienced life? The world wonders ...

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Next into the pool ...

                        really, really great questions, Sune. Lots of individual answers to be found. I'm looking forward to hearing what you come up with. I'll share mine when I have a chance.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Next into the pool ...

                          Thanks, Ne/Neva Eva. Had a bad night last night in which I was awake for a couple of hours thinking about how badly I think I've screwed up my life -- although it's probably not that screwed up in many senses. My marriage is on the rocks, but we're working on it. Our child definitely has some issues, but they may be less bad than they seem simply because I might be projecting my issues (i.e. high baseline anxiety level) on to him. Career seems iffy, etc., etc.

                          But there is a roof over my head. And my wife is still here (or alternatively, I'm still here as she hasn't thrown my ass out). And while I am a bit upset with myself about how little progress I've made on my new business over these past months, at a certain point, that's not productive.

                          So I guess one resolves to take baby steps. The great thing about the baclofen is the opportunity to take giant leaps in a short period of time with respect to one's own behavior. The downside is the time lost to the side effects, for me. But they have moderated since I ticked back down to 140 mg a day from 200.

                          I've become aware lately of how our lives hurtle by, and that changing one's relative direction can seem challenging. I have thought that cutting down on the bad habits would be a good first step, but there would be many other ones. At least this morning, I am counting myself lucky that I've had the gains I've had, and that I'm putting a stronger foundation under myself and my family for whatever lies ahead.

                          One question I would like to press with folks -- alcohol and coffee just taste like crap to me. As I indicated earlier, still drink three or four glasses of wine per night (down from five to seven), but the first glass doesn't taste that great, and by the third glass, it tastes down right awful (white wine tastes like unfiltered bitter lemon juice). Have other folks encountered that? Is that equivalent to indifference, and that my 'habit brain' is still just catching up to my sense of taste?

                          Clearly I'm hoping the answer is that I've hit 'the switch' as that would mean that I don't have to titrate back up on the bac again. ;-)

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Next into the pool ...

                            I think you could take the fact that alcohol and coofee both tasting bad as an opportunity to dump them, what the point in drinking something that is bad for you when you no longer enjoy it, apart from the motivator of addiction to it but you are breaking that now, maybe you could reduce further over the next week

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Next into the pool ...

                              suneelca;1211360 wrote:
                              So I guess one resolves to take baby steps. The great thing about the baclofen is the opportunity to take giant leaps in a short period of time with respect to one's own behavior. The downside is the time lost to the side effects, for me. But they have moderated since I ticked back down to 140 mg a day from 200.

                              I've become aware lately of how our lives hurtle by, and that changing one's relative direction can seem challenging.
                              Again, really thought provoking stuff. Thank you.
                              I suppose I was and am resolved to take baby steps. I cut myself a lot of slack in some ways. But in others, and maybe simply because bac does give the opportunity for giant leaps, or maybe because I was already in transition, getting fixed with bac hit the turbo button. The world was finally my oyster or some such nonsense. Meaning that I wasn't being hindered by the one thing, the big thing, that made actual life impossible to live.

                              Baby steps or giant leaps? It's kind of moot once the HUGE hurdle is gone. I find myself really unclear about some of the most mundane things. (Cooking dinner one night, feeling out of sorts and yucky and headachey and not hungry but starving and thinking, "Why, oh why? Is it something I took or didn't take or should take or ate or didn't and I wish I'd exercised and blah, blah...blech." And it HIT me. "huh. This is how people feel." Who knew?)
                              And at the same time my life is transformed. In the words of my beloved husband, (the same one that I detested and was planning on divorcing 10 months ago before we both found indifference,) "I feel like Cinderella." Fortunately he does not look or act like Cinderella.
                              And I'm pretty sure that when Cinderella woke up in the castle she was a little alarmed by the fact that the dishes still needed to be done, and the floors swept, and that it was for a lot more people. So baby steps and moon-landing-leaps. All in one fell swoop. I'm (mostly) loving the ride. Hope you do! :H and

                              Oh. and the coffee/wine-taste thing. I had that. Drank right on through it. But I'm pretty sure that it was right before I just didn't want any wine any more. woop! And the SEs? How many months did it take you to get here? I'm glad you're impatient. But it's simply moments in the grand scheme. Ya' know?

                              Good Sunday, all! Cheers.
                              (btw, is it so wrong that I was tempted to buy a friend a bottle of champagne to celebrate her 90 days? :H okay. I know. But really, the funniest part is that it would have been a complete waste of money. Neither of us drinks.) Hang in there. You won't either!

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