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[suneelca]

Next into the pool ...

Thanks, bebe -- it did occur to me that maybe I should take the alcohol tasting like crap as a signal to not do it, but there is the part of me that's still looking for that alcohol-induced 'click' -- which is how I believe it was put by the protagonist of 'Cat on a Hot Tin Roof'. As for coffee, given the bac-induced somnolence, drinking coffee right now is not an option!

Neva -- thanks for your thoughtful post. Your writing about your sequence of Cinderella moments above -- from moment of glory to realizing that this castle needs straightening up -- is hilarious (especially for me in light of the great new show, "Once Upon a Time," which featured Cinderella last week), but also poignant. I just started reading a new book summarizing the acceptance and commitment therapy I'm now doing and the writer's initial point is that we can transform our lives right now by appreciating both what's magical and mundane in this very moment.

And now, I need to go take a magical and mundane shower.

[suneelca]

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SEs weren't great yesterday despite ticking down to 140 mg, and on Saturday had had like six drinks (most in a while) -- I discovered that vodka tastes less like crap than wine, and perhaps between mixing drinks and having a lot of them and then having some pot, I felt like crap yesterday despite getting a good eight hours of sleep. 'Crap!' I thought -- 'What if I am one of those people who can't take Bac because of the side effects?'

Barely had three drinks last night -- we went to a nice dinner at a friend's house, and managed to be somewhat engaged in spite of feeling out of it (and having had a nap during the afternoon to boot). And feeling pretty good this morning -- pretty lively in spite of only having had one cup o' coffee. I guess there are good days and bad days on everything, right? But this morning has me feeling pretty good about Bac and where it might take me.

Neva -- I had tried to PM you but your box was full -- did you indicate on one thread that you had experienced some pretty bad side effects, but that those have completely subsided?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

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My side effects were pretty awful. They are gone.

I have to admit that the following paragraph made me chuckle:

suneelca;1212552 wrote: SEs weren't great yesterday despite ticking down to 140 mg, and on Saturday had had like six drinks (most in a while) -- I discovered that vodka tastes less like crap than wine, and perhaps between mixing drinks and having a lot of them and then having some pot, I felt like crap yesterday despite getting a good eight hours of sleep. 'Crap!' I thought -- 'What if I am one of those people who can't take Bac because of the side effects?'

My SEs were greatly increased (but not induced) by booze. I was more than happy to tweak the bac, though, and not the booze. Sadly, it took me 4 months of erratic titration up,
and probably several more months of sobriety before I realized, "It wasn't the bac, it was the booze!" Better late than never? :H At least the deed is done.
I still get uncomfortably sleepy sometimes, but I'm not quite ready to hold bac solely responsible. Yet. I'm not sure how I'd find out, though. I'm not going down to find out! (Maybe.)
I am quite sure that erratic titration had as much, if not more, to do with my very unpleasant experiences with bac.

Hang in, Sune.

[suneelca]

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Neva -- many thanks. I now get your point -- for me, the SEs have been greatly reduced as I have reduced my usage of other substances. First, Seroquel has been cut in half (per MD direction) and should be eliminated by end of this week. Even bigger (for me) was that I experimented by leaving all pot behind when went to see folks in SoCal for Thanksgiving. Lo and behold, the somnolence was greatly reduced, if not eliminated! Praise be! And got home tonight with ample weed around, and for whatever reason, not really motivated to have more.

So here's what's gone out the window or been reduced since I started Baclofen on 9/23:

- Nicotine (was a 15-smoke-a-day smoker)
- Benzo / lorazepam
- Gabapentin
- Marijuana
- Seroquel

Coffee use also trending down, now that I don't need the level of stimulant I once needed now that I'm not littering my body with that level of depressant. The drinking has bounced up a bit again, but for the moment, don't really give a $#!t. My brother is a world-class neurologist / brain researcher, and going to tell him that he really needs to turn his community on to Bac. This is a real game-changer.

My thanks to all of you on this board -- you're really an inspiration that has helped pull me through. Am back up to 160 mg now and well tolerated now. Can't wait to see where all of this goes.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

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Hiya, again, Sune! I don't know where the heck everyone else is these days!

I wanted to chime in (again!) about the other things you mentioned. That is awesome and amazing and I hope you are feeling really good about how you're managing things. (I'm also really glad that you weren't completely put off by my post! whew!)

I think it might be wise as you go up and look for indifference to think of some other meds/things as tools.
(Long stories ensue, and I've got little time today...Forgive the windedness!)

The thing is, I'm talking to someone who is really struggling right now. There are a lot of converging factors, but some of her struggle has something to do with quitting a whole bunch of things (benzos, pain meds, sleep meds) cold turkey.

There are some other examples in my own life that indicate to me that using other meds as tools are not out of place in the journey. I am really glad I didn't experiment with a whole bunch of stuff when I was titrating up, but I sorely wish that I'd taken a short-acting benzo and/or a sleep aid when I was suffering from high anxiety and insomnia. (The two often go hand in hand.) I actually think it may have helped a lot. Maybe even in terms of reaching indifference, but definitely in terms of comfort level. My discomfort was pretty traumatic. (Not that I remember it well! I think it might be similar to giving birth--but wouldn't know first hand. :H The reward is so great that I have forgotten how difficult it was for me!)
My husband smoked pot up to and after indifference, though much less. Then, in no small part because I was really uncomfortable having to spend time--even rarely--with someone who wasn't all there, (ugh) we had a "discussion" and he quit. He says he hasn't missed it at all.
One of the reasons that he didn't give it all up is because the booze was the most debilitating and life-threatening. Getting that out of the way would have (and did) make a huge difference in quality of life. The other thing is, though, that brain chemistry is a delicate thing and we both thought bludgeoning the beast while still finding some solace from anxiety would be the smart move.
To that end, he took xanax on a schedule when he was in the triple digits. I mostly credit that with the fact that he never lost a night's sleep or suffered from any bad SEs, even at 320mg/day!

There are also a couple of accounts of people giving up the whole shebang in one go, so take my own thoughts for what they're worth!

Point is this: I'm really glad you are doing so well. Keep on keeping on! Eyes on the goal and all...The rest will come in due time.
:l
Ne

[Ne/Neva Eva]

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suneelca;1216337 wrote: This is a real game-changer.

Amen, brother!

[suneelca]

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I'm in a bit of a Bac-induced stupor much of the time lately, but will attempt to relate where I'm currently at in the hopes that folks who are new to Baclofen or who have been meandering around might find my experience instructive.

- Ne/Neva at one point had indicated that some of the difficulties she faced while titrating up to the 'switch' were a result of erratically upping and decreasing dosage, taking Bac at inconsistent times, etc. (Did I get that right, Ne/Neva?) I can testify that maintaining a modicum of consistency and laddering up in dosage carefully might be good thing.

Net, my MD psychopharmacologist, who had originally raised the possibility of Baclofen to me in the spring (I then caught on in September and got started), had originally wanted me to go to 250 mg. I was having SEs in the range between 160 and 200 mg, and have been in the past couple of weeks been bouncing between 120 and 180 mg. And paying for it! I can't afford the cycle of insomnia and somnolence for work reasons, so here's my plan (with my MD's buy-in):

1. Stabilize the dose at 120 mg for a while.
2. This my MD won't know about, but am going to call Dr. Levin for a consult as everything I've read here indicates that folks who work with him largely don't experience SEs?

Again, I need to be productive for a while work-wise, and my productivity has cratered since I started taking Bac in September. Going to also stabilize at 50 mg of Seroquel, 300 mg of Lamictal (mood stabilizer), and 1,000 mg of L-tyrosine, although not sure it's doing much for me.

I increasingly think the somnolence is really a function of the insomnia (which is probably today's 'well duh' statement!), but hadn't read that people had explicitly linked the two. As indicated in another post, got something called the Zeo Sleep Manager. You put on a headband when you sleep, and it records the amount of time you spend in deep sleep, REM sleep, light sleep, and wakefulness, as well as the number of times one wakes up. You get a 'z-score' of 0 to 100. I've been doing between 18 and 58 (average for my age, 47, is 74). Actually, the 58 is an outlier. Wow, no wonder I feel like crap! So that's definitely one thing I want to plumb with Dr. L -- the insomnia.

But I'm starting to question this process on a much deeper level. Not in the sense of thinking about not taking Baclofen. Out of the question -- my wife has recently told me that our marriage is back from the brink, and that whatever has happened has given me back to her after being gone for years (like, eight of the nine years we've been together -- guess that first year was a REALLY great year!).

What I've come to realize is that the reason I'm taking Baclofen is less about drinking per se than about ameliorating what had become a crippling level of baseline anxiety. This expressed itself in a number of ways, from addictive behaviors to years of bad back pain. Much of that has gone since I started Bac -- cigarette smoking, excessive pot smoking, the back pain. I do drink, but even that is down by at least half since I started Bac. In fact, all of this kicked in around 80 mg. While I'm still drinking daily -- two to four glasses of wine a night, I can see how to start having AF nights, as the need to medicate the anxiety, irrespective of consequences, seems to have mostly evaporated. This, to me, is what makes Bac a wonder drug -- especially if the debilitating SEs go away as the body adjusts to the dosage, without seeing a similar reduction in the good effects. Can you imagine getting this level of evenness with a benzo? You'd be so whacked out ...

But I digress. The real point is, I guess that for the moment, I'm not going for hitting the 'switch' -- am going to consolidate the huge gains I've had, and maybe just hang out here indefinitely unless the drink accelerates back up to a bottle-plus of wine per night. We shall see.

But still going to call Dr. L as I want to get on a course toward better management of the SEs should they persist ...

Also, Ne/Neva had at one point asked me whether I would / could post the name of the MD who's prescribing Bac for me, while acknowledging that many folks will not because

[Ne/Neva Eva]

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Everyone everyone everyone gets ses.

Jkttdp. You will not regret it. Think of these months as an investment in the years you have left. You won't believe it and I think-I know! Everyone who has reached indifference feels similarly. Look for the happily sober for guidance.

[suneelca]

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I get it. But this is make or break time for my new company, and I can't keep losing time to this insomnia / somnolence hamster wheel. Ne / Neva - is this something Dr. Levin might be able to help with? What else do you and others recommend?

[suneelca]

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Today's update -- tuned back to 120 mg yesterday. Had only two glasses of wine -- but not more. Not indifferent per se, but felt pretty close. In any case, slept like crap -- was awake pretty much from 3 am on. But more with it this morning than have been in five days. Minimal somnolence, which is great! Going to call Dr. Levin this afternoon and hopefully get back on track ...

[Ne/Neva Eva]

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suneelca;1233636 wrote: Ne / Neva - is this something Dr. Levin might be able to help with? What else do you and others recommend?
It's one of the reasons I bring it up. I also pass on the suggestion it because my husband almost completely avoided SEs when he was titrating up, and never experienced insomnia. (I couldn't believe it!) After a major meltdown where he had been playing around with his dosing for a week he took action...

suneelca;1233568 wrote:
- Ne/Neva at one point had indicated that some of the difficulties she faced while titrating up to the 'switch' were a result of erratically upping and decreasing dosage, taking Bac at inconsistent times, etc. (Did I get that right, Ne/Neva?) I can testify that maintaining a modicum of consistency and laddering up in dosage carefully might be good thing.
Yep. I also think I just experienced SEs...But it would have been more efficient if I'd just taken the pills in even increments with regular increases. I also think it might have been less difficult if I'd stayed at a level that was comfortable and then slowly gone up. Instead I increased by 20mg or more, whenever I had a chunk of time off, regardless of the SEs.

suneelca;1233568 wrote: Net, my MD psychopharmacologist, who had originally raised the possibility of Baclofen to me in the spring (I then caught on in September and got started), had originally wanted me to go to 250 mg.
That is very exciting! The plan sounds very reasonable. How very reasonable/sane/goal-oriented of you! Would that I had been...

suneelca;1233568 wrote: What I've come to realize is that the reason I'm taking Baclofen is less about drinking per se than about ameliorating what had become a crippling level of baseline anxiety.

I didn't have any idea that that was the end result, but it is why my life is transformed, I think. The sobriety is a key component, obviously, but the lack of soul-smushing anxiety is why I like living my life so much.

suneelca;1233568 wrote: But I digress. The real point is, I guess that for the moment, I'm not going for hitting the 'switch' -- am going to consolidate the huge gains I've had, and maybe just hang out here indefinitely unless the drink accelerates back up to a bottle-plus of wine per night. We shall see.

You never know. A couple of people around here stayed below the switch dose and managed their drinking for a long time before they decided to go up. I'll try to remember their names. Chi? Glass half full/empty?
There is also the option of just not drinking when bac makes it easy. I didn't do it. But hey, I suppose it could be done!
I'm curious to find out if the urge to drink wanes at a high enough, but below switch dose. If you're the guinea pig, please keep posting about it!

suneelca;1233568 wrote: Also, Ne/Neva had at one point asked me whether I would / could post the name of the MD who's prescribing Bac for me, while acknowledging that many folks will not because

Just the location and that you're willing to be contacted via PM or email or whatever about how to reach him/her.

suneelca;1233947 wrote: Today's update -- tuned back to 120 mg yesterday. Had only two glasses of wine -- but not more. Not indifferent per se, but felt pretty close. In any case, slept like crap -- was awake pretty much from 3 am on. But more with it this morning than have been in five days. Minimal somnolence, which is great!

Great! Except the sleeping part... Hope the work stuff goes well and you can ameliorate that stress soon.
Happy New Year!

[Ne/Neva Eva]

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I took this off of the anxiety thread...

suneelca;1236472 wrote:
Right up until the world as we know itends on December 21!

I'm a little scared to ask, but um, what's going to happen on December 21st? Please tell me it's world peace. Or even city-peace. Neighborhood-peace?
How about, hmmm, chocolate is free?
My car will be paid off. And hopefully still running.
My world is a little small these days, I s'pose.

[suneelca]

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Wow -- thanks for all of that Ne / Neva! Don't know how I missed that. It's awesome.

For folks who are in Northern California / Bay Area who are looking for someone who prescribes, PM me. Am pretty sure you'd have to go under her extended treatment, but she's really, really good (although also very expensive).

Am on second AF night of three since Tuesday. There's a bit of a habitual tug toward the wine bottle that happens around 6:45 -- but again, it's less a craving than a tug. Then pop a nice bottle of some fruit-flavored fizzy water, and that quenches it (the craving or tug or whatever you call it). Rest of the night is pretty effortless. Not even much tugging. Is this what indifference feels like?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

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suneelca;1239699 wrote: Is this what indifference feels like?

Nope. Not for me. I don't think so, anyway. I can't really, exactly, remember. The tug was just gone, I think. Of course, I was pretty...high, both in terms of amount of bac, and in terms of emotions, and I kept myself super busy. I can tell you almost exactly what I did that night, and how that felt. I vacuumed. With my iPod on superloud. Obnoxious rap, mostly. (Eminem was my a$$-kicking mentor during the last part of my titration.)
Then I got on the phone with a fellow MWOer. THAT was super-exciting! She and I spent an hour or so on the phone and I am still so grateful that I got to spend some of that evening with someone from here! (Thanks, Bruun!)

And just ftr, it was shortly after that that my husband decided to try bac. After my brutally difficult titration up, he was not a fan, and definitely completely unwilling to try it. Plus he didn't want to quit drinking. It wasn't the sobriety he was after, exactly. I was so damn happy, content, peaceful-ish, that he couldn't resist. He's been sober for a while now too, and we're both in that place. How cool is that?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

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Oh! And you're very welcome. It is my pleasure. and :l

And not to be a nudge, but would you kindly post that info on this thread:

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ion-47247.html

AND if you would also kindly be willing to share the info with me...I will keep it in absolute strict confidence, never publish it, and only pass it on if you are unavailable and someone is in dire need. Just the name, or even the city, would be helpful. I'm collecting the names simply to help others...And I can't seem to be quit of this place (it had me at hello!) but if I do quit, I'll pass it on to someone who can keep building the database, as it were...