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[suneelca]

Next into the pool ...

Ne -- totally hear you, and have meant to say how sorry I am for the loss of your / our friend. I have tried to offload one thing at a time -- first Ativan, then Gabapentin, then pot, then Advil PM, then AL on some nights (not all), then Seroquel. I know, what a galaxy! The transitions have at times been rough. There was a point in January where I tried getting off AL, Seroquel, and Advil PM at once, and that did not go well. But the mix of Seroquel and Bac is not working, and at a certain point, decided to lump it and just get off the Seroquel. (Hope I'm not repeating myself.) In the hopefully not vain hope that my natural ability to sleep will restore itself, although that might take one to three months. And I have done okay getting off the other stuff -- Ativan, etc., so there is hope.

Trying not to get addicted now to Ambien. The other night, I skipped the Ambien and did some melatonin and Advil PM. Gazoinks! Walked around yesterday in a stupor like the kind I had after mixing Seroquel and Bac. But I know I can get through this ...

COS -- I hear ya! Had the same experience Saturday night when I skipped Ambien and did some leftover Ativan instead. But my wife is hiding the stuff from me so I don't become readdicted to it either!

Space -- when did you go on citalopram and seroquel? Was the BP diagnosis recent? I'm going to be very careful here, but if shopping is a 'telltale' symptom, so to speak ... did you read Dr. Oliver Ameisen's End of My Addiction (the guy who essentially discovered Bac as a cure for alcoholism)? He wasn't diagnosed as BP or anything -- just severely alcoholic. As he started titrating up on Bac, one of the first things he noticed was that his impulsive shopping stopped. I no longer believe I am BP -- just that I have a bad anxiety disorder that I was medicating with everything under the sun. My life gets better as I subtract things. But that then winds back to where Ne / Neva started -- be very careful with all of it.

Did the doctor who prescribed Bac to you also prescribe Seroquel and the citalopram? Sorry to hear about your going back to AL -- did that happen while you were still taking Antabuse?

[suneelca]

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Responses

Ne -- totally hear you, and have meant to say how sorry I am for the loss of your / our friend. I have tried to offload one thing at a time -- first Ativan, then Gabapentin, then pot, then Advil PM, then AL on some nights (not all), then Seroquel. I know, what a galaxy! The transitions have at times been rough. There was a point in January where I tried getting off AL, Seroquel, and Advil PM at once, and that did not go well. But the mix of Seroquel and Bac is not working, and at a certain point, decided to lump it and just get off the Seroquel. (Hope I'm not repeating myself.) In the hopefully not vain hope that my natural ability to sleep will restore itself, although that might take one to three months. And I have done okay getting off the other stuff -- Ativan, etc., so there is hope.

Trying not to get addicted now to Ambien. The other night, I skipped the Ambien and did some melatonin and Advil PM. Gazoinks! Walked around yesterday in a stupor like the kind I had after mixing Seroquel and Bac. But I know I can get through this ...

COS -- I hear ya! Had the same experience Saturday night when I skipped Ambien and did some leftover Ativan instead. But my wife is hiding the stuff from me so I don't become readdicted to it either!

Space -- when did you go on citalopram and seroquel? Was the BP diagnosis recent? I'm going to be very careful here, but if shopping is a 'telltale' symptom, so to speak ... did you read Dr. Oliver Ameisen's End of My Addiction (the guy who essentially discovered Bac as a cure for alcoholism)? He wasn't diagnosed as BP or anything -- just severely alcoholic. As he started titrating up on Bac, one of the first things he noticed was that his impulsive shopping stopped. I no longer believe I am BP -- just that I have a bad anxiety disorder that I was medicating with everything under the sun. My life gets better as I subtract things. But that then winds back to where Ne / Neva started -- be very careful with all of it.

Did the doctor who prescribed Bac to you also prescribe Seroquel and the citalopram? Sorry to hear about your going back to AL -- did that happen while you were still taking Antabuse?

[spacebebe01]

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Hi Sun thanks for asking me, the bp diagnosis was around 4 - 5 weeks ago now when I eventually got to see a new psychiatrist but before that the diagnosis was major depression was made by my gp who had me on vertually every antidepressant going while admitting he knows very little about either mental health or alcoholism. She didnt just base it on the shopping thing there was other stuff as well that was just one of them. I dont think I have bipolar but Im going to try and go back and see her soon and have decided over the past few days that even if she is wrong about the bp Ive must have a better chance with her than I had with my gp (general practitioner). She has also referred me to an acohol unit at a hospital so I go there in 3 weeks time and I will see what they say. Ive stopped panicking so much about the meds and the serequel now, I just want to accept that for now, if its the pills or the 24/7 vodka then I choose the pills every time. I want to get myself stable first and then I will reduce and remove things only after a lot of talking and thinging about it. I hear what your saying that you feel better when you remove things but I drank not only after changing meds but also trying to reduce bac, there was no reason for me to do this, no se's nothing, I just decided I wanted a clear head, I wish I had took a bac instead of a bottle of vodka.

[suneelca]

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Space - how about just getting back on the Bac horse? How are you getting it? What dosages have you been at?

[COSGringo]

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so in the past 4 me, valerian melatonin tryptophan
during the day on bac (200 mg and goin up) green tea. I wfh and still stay up with next to no sleep at times. I don't stick to the naturals as I just can't sleep well. I switch between benzos and ambien. Sometimes just the supplements when I have not slept well in days. I did seroquel but it made me like a zombie. I tried trazadone but maybe not long enough. I seem to do best with alternating between the ambien and the benzos. Everyone is different. I have had insomnia since I was a child. Alcohol was my fix for that but now that I drink less I have to resort to the other methods.
I think if you stick with any one thing you will have issues. Those antidepressants are tough in my opinion but that is just me.
I am used to the Bac but I had some though times with se's early one. I hope it will work. If I hit 300 and no luck I am done as I do miss sleeping and some sort of normalcy. It does help my anxiety. I notice it even when just responding to people. I don't think so much about everything.
It does not help me sleep at the right times. It does make me tired at times but I just struggle through.
All my sleep meds are prescribed so I don't have to get them from a overseas pharmacy. I have used lunesta but I really hated the taste it left for me in my mouth. Like an old nickel sitting on your tongue for hours. The ambien does not work every time. I don't feel bad when I don't get 7 hours of sleep like some mention.
Coming off seroquel I would guess you would need some low doze alprazolam or diazepam. Just ny guess but I am no doc.
One thing I noticed that NE kind of helped me observe is I don't feel like I get a "high" from the benzos like I once would have. They are just a tool.
Once I hit my switch I going to get a sleep study done.
Let me know anything else I can offer from my own personal insomnia demons.

[COSGringo]

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so in the past 4 me, valerian melatonin tryptophan
during the day on bac (200 mg and goin up) green tea. I wfh and still stay up with next to no sleep at times. I don't stick to the naturals as I just can't sleep well. I switch between benzos and ambien. Sometimes just the supplements when I have not slept well in days. I did seroquel but it made me like a zombie. I tried trazadone but maybe not long enough. I seem to do best with alternating between the ambien and the benzos. Everyone is different. I have had insomnia since I was a child. Alcohol was my fix for that but now that I drink less I have to resort to the other methods.
I think if you stick with any one thing you will have issues. Those antidepressants are tough in my opinion but that is just me.
I am used to the Bac but I had some though times with se's early one. I hope it will work. If I hit 300 and no luck I am done as I do miss sleeping and some sort of normalcy. It does help my anxiety. I notice it even when just responding to people. I don't think so much about everything.
It does not help me sleep at the right times. It does make me tired at times but I just struggle through.
All my sleep meds are prescribed so I don't have to get them from a overseas pharmacy. I have used lunesta but I really hated the taste it left for me in my mouth. Like an old nickel sitting on your tongue for hours. The ambien does not work every time. I don't feel bad when I don't get 7 hours of sleep like some mention.
Coming off seroquel I would guess you would need some low doze alprazolam or diazepam. Just ny guess but I am no doc.
One thing I noticed that NE kind of helped me observe is I don't feel like I get a "high" from the benzos like I once would have. They are just a tool.
Once I hit my switch I going to get a sleep study done.
Let me know anything else I can offer from my own personal insomnia demons.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

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I woke up this morning with a burning need to write on MWO. This is not always a good thing. :H But sometimes, it's the very thing...
I hope today it's the latter.

Sun-
So if you wake up tomorrow (or next week) with the burning desire to drink, or worse, what're you going to do? Add in what? Change what?
If you find that you can't sleep, that your body (after being inundated for years with chemicals that regulate that and every other thought), your circadian rhythm does not or cannot reset, what're you going to do? Risk addiction to ambien? Suffer?
Because baclofen causes profound somnolence. That is the second most difficult SE that we almost all deal with.

September to now. 6 months. You've stopped drinking against your will. Found the holy grail of happiness. Dispensed with the erroneous bipolar diagnosis that we so often get saddled with. Flushed a cabinet's worth of worthless meds. And so. much. more. Right?

Whaddaya want? Other than it all, right now. I feel you. In fact, I think I know you! I also know you are working with a pDoc (MDshrink) and so I feel like I don't have to SHOUT about this. I also think you got it. In terms of finding solutions for yourself, and yourself alone. But I wanted to say all this here, just for the official record, because man-o-man, it's worrisome.
(I'll be totally honest here. If you weren't already indifferent and you made all these changes, I would have given you a very small shot at getting there. And even so, I was pretty convinced it was all going to go awry in January when you tried to offload everything. I know you'll understand those statements. And do what's best for you! But also understand what I'm trying to say...)
Sorry for the lecture. Thanks for taking it with the spirit with which it was intended.

Thank you, too, for your thoughts about Michelle, Sun.

Hang in there. Let us know what works and how, will you?

Gotta head over to my thread now...

[spacebebe01]

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Hi Sun, How are you today? did you sleep well. Im not sure what your doing right now with regards to meds/drink Ive got all confused reading can you give me a quick refresh. I thought you were ok where you are at, I hope you are

Oh and yes I am back on bac, I decided that soon after I stopped drinking

[Ne/Neva Eva]

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Wait. Did I just go and maul a perfectly dead horse? Ah well. What'm I going to do?

Hope it's a good day, Sun and all. And that you got some rest, too.

[spacebebe01]

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I thought sun was ok, but then I got the impression the he wasnt thats all I was asking

[suneelca]

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Thanks, everyone! I'm fine ... posted about where I am a bit on Ne's thread. Feeling pretty good somnolence-wise. Some waves of body anxiety, but am trying to just be with that, instead of trying to push it away. As the latter is always a winning strategy (not!).

Ne -- totally appreciate where you're coming from. I had thought that people get to a place where they are basically SE-free after a while. I have noticed that, on balance, my life gets better as I offload meds and substances, once I've gotten through the transitions. Every transition is a risk. My sleep could be permanently screwed up, and if it is, then hopefully I can figure out a good mix of sleep aids.

Your point about patience is well taken. I don't want it all now, honestly -- but I do need to minimize the somnolence for work reasons, and I am willing to put up with some temporary discomfort while it sorts itself out. I may get rebound insomnia once I chuck the Ambien, but at least it doesn't have all of the other potential effects on mood, anxiety, etc., that Seroquel withdrawal has. You get me? I appreciate all of the advice about how to try to smooth out the sleep issues in the meantime.

That said, it's sort of Zen / Buddhism theme this morning, based on your post and mine? I am actually learning something this morning by being with my body anxiety, as I posted on your thread, Ne. And for me, life seems to get better as substances get removed, the transitions notwithstanding.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

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suneelca;1292753 wrote: I had thought that people get to a place where they are basically SE-free after a while.

That said, it's sort of Zen / Buddhism theme this morning, based on your post and mine?

We do and you will. The afternoon somnolence...sticks around. But I wonder if it's a function of the whole post lunch, late afternoon circadian rhythm thing? Not saying yours is...In the beginning it's most definitely bac.

I gotta be honest that I don't really know when it stopped for me. I can mostly structure my own day and have been since last May. So I nap. Don't be jealous. (Though it's reason to be, I agree.) But I also can push through, and I don't know when that started. And now? Now I'm just lazy sometimes...And it's VERY much related to what I eat.

I haven't read your other post yet, but looking forward to it. And I hope so! I'm trying on the whole meditation/eastern approach and as you noted about the meds...it just keeps getting better and better.
But I'm not giving up being mad and indignant. Dammit. Guess that means no enlightenment for me this go 'round. (Not sure I want it, though. geez.)

[Ne/Neva Eva]

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COSGringo;1292475 wrote:
I am used to the Bac but I had some though times with se's early one. I hope it will work. If I hit 300 and no luck I am done as I do miss sleeping and some sort of normalcy. It does help my anxiety. I notice it even when just responding to people. I don't think so much about everything.
It does not help me sleep at the right times. It does make me tired at times but I just struggle through.
...
One thing I noticed that NE kind of helped me observe is I don't feel like I get a "high" from the benzos like I once would have. They are just a tool.
Once I hit my switch I going to get a sleep study done.

I used to set limits, too, COS. Sadly, it just takes what it takes. Or happily. But it does work, and seeing it in terms of the big picture helps. I wish I had! But I was too damn stubborn or desperate or something, so I didn't need to see the forest. One tree at a time got me through.

I have started to think of this anxiety thing the way I think of alcohol addiction...It's on a continuum, just as all chronic diseases are. And to effectively treat any chronic condition, being proactive rather than reactive makes sense. Again, it's a relatively new thought and based a lot on the things I'm reading about what works (or mostly doesn't) in treatment and recovery.

But if one thinks of it that way, then treating 'anxiety' the way one would treat diabetes makes sense...As in, using the tools (medication or meditation) to preempt the symptoms is key. Anything else is simply bandaids.
And anxiety is particularly pervasive, since it's not quantifiable with a blood sample. It builds on itself and treating it when it comes up doesn't work very well. It's almost too late once the panic attack sets in. You can't avoid the panic at that point, you can only talk yourself down. Right?

That's why I think planning ahead, having tools in place, and taking medication regularly makes sense. It's also why I included the doctor's blog and put it in so many places. His point is that medications that are abusable are not necessarily abused if someone isn't abusing them. It's a 'duh', of course. But not the way doctors are used to thinking about things.
Dependence is a different issue, of course, and a different discussion. Again, referring to the doctor whose blog I attached and some other research I've read, the issue is not whether or not someone becomes dependent on say...coffee. It's how to manage it after the fact. And the result of that? Again, it's common sense. Slow and steady. Allow the body and mind to heal. It doesn't preclude using the tools that help get people healthy (or keep them awake!) It just means it has to be done with forethought and a plan.

Hope it's a good day, everybody!

[COSGringo]

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Thanks so much. I guess I better take it 1mg at a time. I will have to go to my pals at river pharmacy since my scrip does not cover it but that's okay too. Just wondering if I should set some sort of limit. Say 300 or at least make an appt with Doc at that point. But I agree with using the meds and not abusing them. My folks and family absolutely hate the idea of taking pills but so what? I have to stop letting them get to me and do what's right for me. Keep those upbeat posts coming. Have a great weekend and holiday if you celebrate it.

[suneelca]

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Cos -- to retell a story I just posted on another thread -- I titrated up to 200mg after four weeks on Bac, and then back down to 120 - 140mg because of the SEs. My drinking was reduced, but I was still an every night drinker. That continued for another month, and then I decided to start going AF. And within a few weeks, I was down to a bottle and a half of wine a week, as opposed to every night. So for me, maybe it just took a while for my brain chemistry to settle itself out?

In terms of my own story -- the latest semi-pathetic twist with trying to get off Seroquel is that I am back on it again, in spite of the sometimes all-day somnolence! Something -- likely the Ambien, although it could have been one of the other supplements I was taking, on top of the Seroquel withdrawal -- was causing me to feel really anxious, depressed, and obsessive.

So, on advice of MD, am back on the SQ. I think this affirms what you were saying, Ne -- in terms of constantly screwing around with various substances in the vain hope of finding perfect psychological balance? Am at a low dose of SQ -- although not low enough to avoid the somnolence. But slept better last night than have in weeks, and otherwise feel pretty good, and am really functional. So rather than fighting the somnolence, just being with it and relaxing into it. And as Dr. Amiesen said in his book, it actually feels pretty good!