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    #46
    People who have tapered back to a low dosage?

    bleep and terry

    Help me here. Part of what I think I'm hearing you say is that if you moderate and even if moderation turns out to be problematic, you still have the ability to titrate back up and re-achieve indifference. Re-titration and abstinence are always possibilities. That sounds to me like a fairly certain safety factor/escape hatch that you didn't have before bac. Am I right?

    Thanks,

    Cass
    With profound appreciation to Dr Olivier Ameisen for his brilliant insight and courageous determination

    Comment

      #47
      People who have tapered back to a low dosage?

      Oh Bleep, I hear you! Indifference is such a gift. It totally takes away the obsession with booze. I am a perfect example of toying with indifference and actually pushing myself out of it. Crazy lady!!

      However, Cassander, YES re-titration and a second go around with indifference is possible (especially with a committment to abstinence). Funny, tho, how I experimented with pushing myself out of indifference and then realized how 'tupid is was. Why bother, as Bleep says. Take the gift and run with it.
      Indifference is in your future with Baclofen. It works!

      My frustration with Baclofen, which is shared by Dr. Oliver Ameisen, is that because Baclofen is an off patent medication there is no profit motive for drug companies to support clinical trials that would demonstrate its efficacy in treating addiction.

      Comment

        #48
        People who have tapered back to a low dosage?

        Cassander;1205274 wrote: bleep and terry

        Help me here. Part of what I think I'm hearing you say is that if you moderate and even if moderation turns out to be problematic, you still have the ability to titrate back up and re-achieve indifference. Re-titration and abstinence are always possibilities. That sounds to me like a fairly certain safety factor/escape hatch that you didn't have before bac. Am I right?

        Thanks,

        Cass
        Yup, I can confirm that. I've actually switched 3 times. It's very comforting to know that even if I drop my dose down low enough that the habit of daily drinking creeps back in, I can always titrate back up and become indifferent again. At the lower doses, I find it better to just use a scant bit of willpower and just choose to not drink the majority of the time. Because once the habit aspect begins, then it's only titrating back up that kicks it for me.
        Better Living Through Chemistry

        Switched at 180mgs of Baclofen on 1/31/11, and again on 10/8/11 at 200mgs.

        Could've been a swan on a glassy lake, could've been a gull in a clipper's wake. Could've been a ladybug on a windchime, but she was born a dragonfly.
        ~Clutch

        Comment

          #49
          People who have tapered back to a low dosage?

          Hi Cassander,

          It's a little different for me. I remained on the same dose (300 at the time) the whole time, so I was indifferent whilst drinking. At the time, I was determined not to stop drinking, to prove to myself that it could be done, that I could drink "normally". It just took a while to realise that this isn't what I wanted anymore. Bear in mind that the baclofen transformation is relatively sudden, so one day I was happily boozing myself to oblivion every night, and the next, that desire was gone. It took me a while to realise that though.

          Baclofen doesn't make you a better drinker, or a more responsible one, it makes you able to choose to drink, and it makes the choice very easy. It has removed, for me, the enormous satisfaction that having a drink used to bring, as well as the enormous desire to drink. It's quite possible to go out every night and get plastered while you are indifferent, but it would take effort, discipline and commitment, and as I said in my previous post, why bother?

          Certainly, if you tried to taper down on baclofen and found yourself boozing uncontrollably again, you could just go up again to solve your problem. This weekend I expect to have no problem with fighting an urge to party, having increased again from 240.

          It really is the most amazing thing I have ever come across. Baclofen works.

          Comment

            #50
            People who have tapered back to a low dosage?

            Cass,

            I nearly hit my switch last Feb/Mar at 220 mg. I started to taper back down due to blood pressure worries that turned out to be unrelated (my wife had a serious ankle brake - no weight bearing, no driving for 6 weeks. The two kids, dog, cat, lizard, 11 fish, house, etc were all on me).

            I was very pleased with my level of control and was drinking very little. I went down to 80 mg and all was well, so I went off completely. Didn't work. I am now back on bac and titrating up again (125 mg now). During the time I was off bac and drinking more I knew I had the bac safety valve if I needed it. Well, it turns out I needed it...

            I will be employing a different strategy this time around
            Good judgment comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgment.

            Comment

              #51
              People who have tapered back to a low dosage?

              I want to keep this thread going. =)
              Still fighting the good fight.

              Comment

                #52
                People who have tapered back to a low dosage?

                DrunkAndTiredInFLA;1209835 wrote: I want to keep this thread going. =)
                D&T and everyone

                I don't mean to hijack or divert this thread too much by going where I'm going, but here goes...

                I've been intrigued all along by the differences in AA and bac as solutions in reducing craving, achieving indifference, and maintaining sobriety.

                In my quest for knowledge I went to an (open) AA meeting Tuesday night -- my first, with a friend who swears by AA. I won't go off here on the many issues AA presents (that would be a hijack), but I would observe that there seems to be no safety valve or cushion with AA -- one slip, a relapse and you are probably back in the soup (as it were). My friend is terrified of a slip, to the point where he believes his next slip could kill him. As such, he won't try bac, because he's afraid that any "substance" which impacts his (delicate) state of mind might knock him off the rails.

                Bac as therapy seems different and to my way of thinking, sounder. When you achieve indifference you stop craving. You might drink or not (as terryk says) but why bother (as bleep says). You might try moderation, but if the craving is gone, what's the point? You might evolve into abstinence as a matter of free choice. And if you titrate down too low or stop taking bac because you think you're cured and the devil finds his way back into your life you can (as Is and Grommet say) titrate back up. A slip won't kill you. Its just a reminder to readjust those GABA levels in your brain. I don't think the 12-stepper has that tool in his toolbox.

                As a result, and I may be stretching here, it seems that bac leads to an indifference which has the potential to remove "thoughts about alcohol" as a meaningful factor in your daily life. With AA, by comparison, alcohol remains a central part of your life since abstinence requires a constant focus on working the steps, regularly going to meetings, etc. and NOT drinking. There seems to be an important element of fear in the AA solution (and rightfully so given the often terrible consequences of relapse) which seems avoidable (at least in theory) with bac.

                I asked my AA friend if he is indifferent or if he still craves alcohol (he is 4 years sober). He said no, he does not crave, and I believe he is being honest, but I don't think he understands what "indifference" really means. There is no way he would ever risk even a sip because he fears he then couldn't stop. That means he's not indifferent, right?

                It seems that bac has the potential to make an alcoholic's brain look at alcohol the way a moderate or non-drinker does...take it or leave it...and therefore not a major factor in
                life's daily decisions. It seems that a 12 stepper still has to look at alcohol like an alcoholic                . It is still a central part of his life, the difference being that it is central by its absence, not its presence.

                Any thoughts, anybody?

                Cassander
                With profound appreciation to Dr Olivier Ameisen for his brilliant insight and courageous determination

                Comment

                  #53
                  People who have tapered back to a low dosage?

                  hey cass,
                  we may have to start another thread. this topic seems to bring out everyone's strong opinions of BAC vs AA. that being said...
                  I am in the same boat as your friend - 4 years sober and not on BAC. so I can really only speak about AA. there really is no safety valve as you call it in AA- other than the steps. one drink and you are back on the rails of the crazy train. of course, you can always come back to AA and a lot of people do go in and out of the rooms. I think most of us here can relate to the overwhelming craving that no amount of willpower seems to be able to stop. at least pre-BAC.
                  in AA there is a difference between craving and obsession of the mind. AA IMO believes there is a distinction between the two concepts. craving is the physical aspect of the disease. one drink of alcohol switches on the physical cravings and you are back in the soup as it were. your friend may not have cravings after 4 years although a better question for him is "do you still have the obsession to drink?"
                  this is the fascinating part of the equation for me and I think what you are really asking about indifference. in my mind we all stop the physical craving for alcohol after a certain amount of time sober. not sure how long this is. then there is the obsession to drink. if you don't work the steps then you have no relief. the steps and a spiritual solution are your replacement for alcohol. they give you that " relief" that only alcohol provided in the past. and I guess what BAC also solves for most hdBAC'ers.
                  now, if you can turn off the obsession to drink through medication or the steps...more power to you.
                  I can state that I am not "indifferent" to alcohol after 4 years of AA. although I can also say that I haven't worked the steps either. I've gotten by on a lot of endurance exercise to alleviate my anxiety and by going to meetings to hang around sober people. I still isolate from drinkers,parties,social events,etc. I'm coming to the end of my rope with all that because it just doesn't seem to be a way to live. this is why most people go back out to drink. so I either do the steps ( I am in the 4th step right now) or I try BAC. I'm looking at this as an experiment to see if it works.
                  do we drink because of " character defects" or do we amplify " character defects" because we can't stop drinking?
                  anyway, perhaps a new thread?

                  Comment

                    #54
                    People who have tapered back to a low dosage?

                    Yes please let's keep this thread on the topic of tapering down/off of Baclofen and our experiences. I am still at 60mg per day down from a maint. dose of 200 and have no desire to drink. I'm gonna go "whole hog" sometime in the near future though and completely titrate off. I'm wondering if Baclofen ever really was that helpful to me. I actually was a few months sober when I started baclofen... anyway, that's a whole other topic in itself.

                    Comment

                      #55
                      People who have tapered back to a low dosage?

                      Update: Went down 10mg's to 50 per day and have been on this dosage for 3 days now. No noticeable side effects. Might wait til Monday to go down another 10mg to 40. No cravings to run out and buy 100 proof vodka either :H

                      Comment

                        #56
                        People who have tapered back to a low dosage?

                        Glad to hear it BMinor! And I am glad to see this thread back in the loop. =)
                        Still fighting the good fight.

                        Comment

                          #57
                          People who have tapered back to a low dosage?

                          DrunkAndTiredInFLA;1215516 wrote: Glad to hear it BMinor! And I am glad to see this thread back in the loop. =)
                          Indeed! I'm going to try to keep a running log of how it goes on the way down. I will say upfront that I have acquired some 5mg valium tabs that I will be taking to maybe help with the baclofen taper down. I know there was a lot of debate as to whether benzo's would actually help with Bac withdrawal or not. Just thought I would share that.

                          Comment

                            #58
                            People who have tapered back to a low dosage?

                            Bminor;1215503 wrote: No cravings to run out and buy 100 proof vodka either :H
                            What about this?




                            Bminor;1215604 wrote:                             I know there was a lot of debate as to whether benzo's would actually help with Bac withdrawal or not.
                            It's not so much debate. And it has a lot to do with withdrawing cold turkey. Not such a good idea.

                            Glad you're doing well! And, um, I haven't forgotten!

                            Comment

                              #59
                              People who have tapered back to a low dosage?

                              Hi terry i ont want you to take this the wrong way but if you arnt enjoing al why have it? it can cause cravings to happen maybe, why take the risk

                              Comment

                                #60
                                People who have tapered back to a low dosage?

                                spacebebe01;1215768 wrote: Hi terry i ont want you to take this the wrong way but if you arnt enjoing al why have it? it will only cause crasvings
                                I hear you sb, and the last thing I want to do is suggest that my experience shows that it's okay to drink after indifference. I'm taking baclofen to keep alcohol in my past and out of my future - it makes sense that I shouldn't get cocky and tempt fate. -tk
                                TerryK celebrates 6 years of sobriety and indifference to alcohol thanks to baclofen

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